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Weird; I was thinking about it last night. I didn't come up with a formal plan of action or anything, just thinking about it.
spoiler for the 3 people who haven't played this...(lol)
What I'd change would be the randomness of it. I like your conspiracy of evil idea and so I would make it that the evil cult have actually invited the various monsters there and the keep doesn't really get what's going on yet.
Isn't there a cave tunnel leads off from the cultists to B1 Inseach of the Unknown - Caverns of Quasqueton...
The last time I ran the game I had the cultists hiring the goblins and bugbears to extend the tunnel to the Keep so they could invade it from beneath.
The cultists were doing their best to control the various factions so that they could use them in their invasion.
The priest may have once have been good and was corrupted while exploring the caves himself.
It may be worth looking at B5 "Horror on the Hill" for an evil monastery and B4 "The Lost City"...
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does anything not fit?
Only the "rooming" deranged barbarians. I think they'd work better in a sitcom. I can see it now. Six unkempt berserkers share a two-bedroom apartment on the lower east side of Manhattan while getting into all sorts of zany hijinks often involving the cute 20-something barista next door whose coffeehouse serves as their hangout spot when they aren't hunting and killing tourists in Central Park or pillaging convenience stores and flipping over taxis on Broadway. They could call it something like "Room and Broadsword."
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Having the 'evil chaos cult' be a cult to Lamashtu would serve to explain some of the monsterifficness of the Caves of Chaos. The Goblins and human cultists would logically be there, worshipping their Dark Mother, while the monsters might either have been attracted by the shrine, or deformed spawn of local creatures warped by the location (so that the owlbear might be a deformed spawn of a normal bear, or something).
Having the 'evil chaos cult' be a cult to Lamashtu would serve to explain some of the monsterifficness of the Caves of Chaos. The Goblins and human cultists would logically be there, worshipping their Dark Mother, while the monsters might either have been attracted by the shrine, or deformed spawn of local creatures warped by the location (so that the owlbear might be a deformed spawn of a normal bear, or something).
I like this. I went to PathfinderWiki and it really fits the caves of Chaos right down the inclusion of Medusa which is actually the last encounter in the original adventure and something I was going to leave out.
It would even make sense to the priest of evil chaos actually be a priestess and make her a Medusa.
Medusa Cleric of Lamashtu, who goes by the moniker of "Black Widow" (petrifying those she gets tired of 'engaging in her required ritual activity') is a possibility here as well ...
Having the 'evil chaos cult' be a cult to Lamashtu would serve to explain some of the monsterifficness of the Caves of Chaos.
Yeah, that works a lot better. Otherwise I am wondering why these inhabitants are not attacking one another.
I updated this adventure to 3.5 and ran my party through it about 2 years ago. I left the number and types of creatures the same, which in many cases can lead to very difficult encounters. However, it did teach my group to use tactical retreats and utilize some strategy in combats (such as scouting before attacking, utilizing hit-and-run tactics).
One way to lessen the effect of running into too many creatures is to degrade their armor and weapons from those listed in the monster manual. I used pretty much the weapons they were listed as using in the original adventure (things like spears and no armor instead of falchions and studded leather for orcs). It may not seem like much, but having monsters with a bit less AC and ability to deal damage makes a big difference with the numbers of foes the party will be facing. It also added more flavor to the 'higher ups' of each tribe when the leaders and body guards were utilizing more effective equipment.
Two of the best parts:
- The goblins bribing the ogre to help them in a fight with the party was great, it really changed the feel of the goblin cave.
- Finding and releasing prisoners in the hobgoblin and bugbear caves also was interesting in that the party was never sure who would fight for them or turn on them at any moment.
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Biggest problem is that the threat level is tied to locations of the caves.
Having the hardest cave being at the top but with no indication to the party as such, could be a problem for some level 1 characters.
I would make the high caves (J and K) be obvious temple openings guarded to the hilt, you can even steer the party that way first. Then maybe when they are discouraged they will look around the ravine for another way in. The lower caves (the actual first caves A, B, C) could also be intimidating since the hold the various humanoid clans who are thralls to the temple proper, but they are far less organized and maybe easier to infiltrate and eventually get to the top from the inside.
I would also cover the ravine bottom with fog. All about the perception of timing and luck.
Just an idea.
Edit: roaming barbarians...not so intimidating, bloodthirsty berserker humans serving a monster cult as they slowly become more and more inhuman - it might work.
I've always used mountain/hill folk living on the outskirts of traditional euro type cities and nations. These more savage clans (not evil) could easily be losing people to the temple as some of their warriors are captured and subjected to horrific rituals. Just another angle besides sending the heroes out from the Keep.
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In writing up group 1 I might have stumbled upon an answer. If the Borderlands is so dangerous then why do people seek it out, why live in the keep or travel to it?
No taxes? Civilised lands have the infrastructure and population to support organised tax collection, which in turn supports infrastructure et al.
I have always wondered why someone would build a wooden cabin way out in the wop-wops and risk bears, wolves, native attacks with bows and arrows... but then I realised from reading various historical information that "civilised" society could be unbearable if you thought or looked different from what was held to be the "norm". And the tax burden? Well, people still complain about it :-)
And what happens when the Borderlands are clear? In come the tax collectors, and drive off all the adventurers to another wild place...
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Actually when I redesigned keep on the borderland it became part of a collection of Adventures (along with B5 HORROR ON THE HILL and Elwyn's Sanctuary from B9 CASTLE CALDWELL & BEYOND) that were part of the Dark Theocracy which was an attempt to establish a Theocracy of Chaos in the Hilly uplands of Eastern Karameikos in that wedge of land bounded by two Rivers.
While the Humanoids of the Caves are different factions, it is the Clerics who employ them as Warbands and slowly bring them together in a single millitary assault on the KEEP along with an army of Undead.
Once the Keep on the Borderland Falls, They are able to push humans out of the region and the Rivers becones the New Border of their Theocracy (Philosophical Chaos) The Warbands begin raids west into the Kings Road cutting trade with Darokin if they destroy KingsRoad Keep.
Once the Kingsroad keep falls and trade is cut off, Kelvin feels the effects because 80% of the population is dependant on traders bringing in supplies from the north.
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Roaming barbarians...not so intimidating, bloodthirsty berserker humans serving a monster cult as they slowly become more and more inhuman - it might work.
I've always used mountain/hill folk living on the outskirts of traditional euro type cities and nations. These more savage clans (not evil) could easily be losing people to the temple as some of their warriors are captured and subjected to horrific rituals. Just another angle besides sending the heroes out from the Keep.
Keep on the Borderlands with a dash of the Hook Mountain Massacre?
Yowza!
"You got a purty mouth, boy."
That could also be a whole new twist on The Mad Hermit.
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The overall outline is good but I do see a few problems.
1st-The slave prisoner can finger Jovial unless his appearance is not know at the actual temple site, or if he wears some form of cover as a member of the cult so he doesn't fear direct identification.
Unless of course she can't communicate.
2nd-If Jovial is leading the party in through the caves then the party should be killed or captured. It would be a stretch that someone in the cult would waste so many resources in laid out traps and wasted soldiers without expecting a return. Even if those resources are considered one notch above rabble if the Temple eventually plans on marching on the countryside then they wouldn't waste the fodder on PC's who are slowly infiltrating their complex.
A)Of course you could have them get captured but you would need a few leaps in plausibility for the players to be able to escape, plus most players hate escape modules where they lose all their gear, etc.
B)Jovial could have done this to multiple groups of previous troubleshooters in the past but maybe with some luck or guidance he doesn't end up going with the party to the caves.
C)Or Jovial could be an agent of Rovagug and knows about some aspect of the caves. He could have been a member of the Lamashtu cult, but his loyalties to the Rough Beast were exposed and he was almost killed and barely escaped. The final betrayal could end up in a three way fight- party, Medusa and Jovial. For him it would be revenge and eliminating a rival cult.
3rd-The minotaur could be the defacto reclusive power behind the loosely aligned lower cave tribes. The upper caves/temple need to deal with him if they want anything done with the humanoids. Maybe they have plans on eliminating him, or solidifying control by folding him in a little more. Your list about finding items to use on him is good, but I would say more as bribes and trade to buy his service.
Having a rogue Minotaur so close to the temple is an issue. Having him snatch up a temple slave or cultist every once in awhile would be a reasonable cost of operation for the temple, but such a powerful and close rogue agent would be a bit much as a tolerance for the cult.
I like the write up, I would say that the Jovial betrayal with the Medusa is a bit lethal. Medusa leader is bad enough, an agent in the party who knows all their weaknesses and tricks would/should be terminal.
I like the slimy uber scummy concept of Jovial, but integrating him so much without a party TPK or capture is hard for me to reconcile.
Just my take, I like what you have as is and I think it would work.
I just try to make my npc motivation as clean and realistic as possible.
I'm not really sure how you'd work it into the overall plot but I always loved the Rahasia adventure that was part of that series.
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C)Or Jovial could be an agent of Rovagug and knows about some aspect of the caves. He could have been a member of the Lamashtu cult, but his loyalties to the Rough Beast were exposed and he was almost killed and barely escaped. The final betrayal could end up in a three way fight- party, Medusa and Jovial. For him it would be revenge and eliminating a rival cult.
This is the best bet, IMO. Having Jovial wanting to use the party to get revenge on the Medusa for kicking him to the curb (hell hath no fury like a psychopathic boyfriend scorned?) would fit better than having him lead the party through the destruction of the cult's entire power base before turning on them.
Jovial might enjoy a little too much the assault on his former high priestesses forces, hinting at his bloodthirsty nature, and might make very reasonable-sounding arguments (about the good of the surrounding communities, etc.) for not leaving any survivors in the various kobold, etc. encounters. He might consider this betrayal and slaughterfest to be a grand sacrifice in the name of Rovagug, and follow a 'heresy' that Lamashtu and Rovagug are intended to be the mother and father of apocalypse (considered a heresy by both mainstream faiths, as the official party line is that each diety is all-by-itself a walking apocalypse, and doesn't need the other to seal the deal), mirroring the Judaic concept of Leviathan and Behemoth, two legendary beasts so large and destructive that they were forbidden to ever mate, as their offspring would ravage the world.
In preparation for the release of the Pathfinder Core Rule Book I want to update the classic adventure The Keep on the Borderlands.
thanks!
Outlaw... sounds very cool!
I'd love for you to submit it to the Pathfinder Database when it goes live!
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So what about Jovial? Well what would he do in this situation? Clearly he would not want to go too far into the caves with the PC's and additionally he would want to make sure they do not come out alive.
What about feigning an injury at some point and sending the PC's on without him "for the children held captive" or what about setting up some sort of planned cave-in which cuts the PC's off from him and their way out?
What has to happen in this sort of situation, is for Jovial to be friendly and eager to help and a bit hapless seeming. In the 2nd or so group encounter in the darkened tunnels, he gets hit, goes down, and is dragged screaming off down a tunnel behind a fresh wave of kobolds (or gnolls, or whatever), leaving the impression that he's been captured or killed. This should happen fast enough to be shocking, but also occur in such a way as not to feel like DM fiat (perhaps he's dragged through a door that shuts and locks, and the PCs don't have time to deal with the door until the combat is over, giving plenty of time for him to be 'dragged away'). Perhaps he even falls into a pit and disappears with a scream into the darkness (with a splash?). Perhaps he's snatched up by grappling hooks on lines, hauled off into a hatchway in the ceiling, which bangs shut behind him, like some freaky Hellraiser homage, followed by blood dribbling down from the seals around the hatch (fresh pig's blood, for versimilitude).
Later, he can be found, any real injuries healed, fresh un-bloodied robes in place, as a hostile in a later encounter.
None of this 'go on without me' stuff, that a stubborn party will end up bollixing by refusing to leave the helpless wounded NPC behind in enemy territory. In this case, a little bit of railroading can be useful, to prevent the party from hanging out waiting for the NPC to be well enough to travel, or just returning with him to the Keep to recover!
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I have to go with Set on this one.
Players, especially low level ones who may feel a limited amount of control or influence in the world would never leave a perceived friend behind - not if they could really help it. So a distraction and fake capture could serve as a good temporary exit for Jovial -keep in mind that this maneuver can be really, really risky as a DM. What if they decide to go full bore after their captured friend?
If he goes away it needs to be airtight, and fair IMO. Since he is pulling the strings it shouldn't be too hard, just be prepared for the unexpected by the party.
I still have a big problem with Jovial leading them in and the party still surviving. If he is a plant leading them up into ambushes there should at least be one very difficult encounter which should come close to taking out the party. Sort of the main ambush designed to take out the PCs. With some luck they may limp out, and then maybe Jovial decides that they are a bit more powerful then he expected - then falls back on leaving the party/escape.
Which leads me to some other issues. Again, this is all just from my experience from running many different kind of games so you can use or disregard as much as you like -it can be a bit daunting:
The Caves are not a static place. Sure there maybe be some infighting and this may even be promoted as furthering Chaos, culling the weak, etc. That will affect communication and response time, but there will be a response. What is going to happen once the show finally gets on the road? How are they going to react (the denizens of the Caves) to the parties intrusion?
This can become a major problem for the party, especially once Jovial bails on the group with all the intel, group strength, used spells, items, etc. Wave after wave of monsters or relentless ambushes will make your most common low-level encounters incredibly difficult to deal with.
Unless the party is lucky, or has some kind of ace up their sleeves they are done. That is why from a logical point I have a real hard time accepting Jovial as an inside agent and the party not getting TPK'ed. Wouldn't even be fair to the PC's really. Unless, there was some other hook or variable.....
I look at fortifications, manned dungeons, bases, etc as I would any real life situation/secured facility. What is their security protocol -patrols, sensors, traps (in D&D), physical obstructions, etc? What is their response time, how do they respond - with individual reactions, as organized squads setup to deal with different threats? Do they come together, do they hit the party in waves? Or do they act disorganized and start wasting each other?
The Temple (at least the Temple) has to have to have a game plan if the forces from the Keep eventually decide to attack- what is it? Again, having Jovial as their inside man to me at least, would mean certain death to the party. Unless they find him out early on, torture him...err extract info from him, then send him to his afterlife reward (or bring him to justice at the Keep).
Again, it may be a bit overwhelming but when I run organized bases I keep patrol rosters, sleep areas, rotations, etc. I know the mod has some suggestions on how the forces at the Cave would react after an attack an break off. Even creatures of Chaos have brains.
I am bit of a hardass DM, you probably can fudge alot of this with similar effect and less work.
Just my take on it
- Bad- different factions of groups each with separate lair set with no reason or justification.
I played it back in the 70's and a few times since. Even from the first, I countered this flaw by noting that the groups were gathered for a competition, with the church promising the winning group reward and exclusive raiding rights on the surrounds. Of course, such seems to require a set of rules set by a chaotic group, which is seemingly more lawful. However, the church's true intent is to spur chaos not only among local raiding victims, but the competing groups as well... mayhem for all... Meanwhile, the groups are required to lair closely for monitoring, again fomenting occasional outbreaks of chaos when a member of one group sneaks into another camp... This chaotic competition can add to the story if well played.