NPCs without gear.

[JezzaL]

In my campaign there's an evil 8th level bard, normally CR8.
He's responsible for destroying an entire hamlet. When the players encountered him they captured him and cut off his right hand so he could never play the fiddle again (he does also have max ranks in Perform (Sing) though). They then handed him over to the authorities.
However he's going to get busted out of jail by the BBEG. The characters might fight him on the same day, in which case he will only have mundane equipment taken fronm dead townsfolk. With only one hand he'll have difficulty changing between spells and a weapon if attacked, but he's going to be mainly casting spells anway.
I'm thinking that should bump him down to CR6. Does that sound right?

[Rezdave]

JezzaL wrote:

In my campaign there's an evil 8th level bard

SNIP
the players ... cut off his right hand so he could never play the fiddle again
SNIP
he will only have mundane equipment ... [and] with only one hand he'll have difficulty changing between spells and a weapon
SNIP
I'm thinking that should bump him down to CR6. Does that sound right?

Depends upon how difficult switching will be.

Remember, that as characters get higher level they rely more on magic items to sustain their CRs. There's also the entirely separate argument that Level does not equal CR.

I think at his level the loss of defensive items, armor and so forth drops him 2-to-4 AC and hits his Saves as well, so that should be worth at least 1 CR.

His loss of offensive capability in terms of weapons and items is worth another CR point.

The loss of the use of one hand is easily worth a CR point all by itself, depending upon how far you take the idea of him "having difficulty".

Granted, it varies by the game and style (in a lower-magic setting this is not as relevant), but I'd say CR 4-5 is a more reasonable number.

FWIW,

Rez

[Velcro Zipper]

As a control experiment you could use the example of the blind mountain troll in Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde who is CR8 (normally CR10) because he has a metal plate bolted to his face. Being blind means he can only attack adjacent creatures and has a 50% miss chance with every attack. On the other hand, he's got 217hp, fast healing 9 and +21/+21/+16 to his attacks.

Your bard doesn't have as big a disadvantage as being blind, but he doesn't have anything like the advantages of the troll's natural abilities and strength either. I think CR6 is a good starting point. You can wait until the battle is over to assign a CR (not to exceed your base of 8) to the bard based on how easily he is defeated. Lacking a hand sounds like a only a minor inconvenience since he can still sing and cast spells, but lacking equipment appropriate to his level should take him down a few pegs.

[Abraham spalding]

My question would be how did he get out of jail then without magical gear manage to slay all the townsfolk, and still be fresh enough to even think about taking on the PC's without magical gear?

How big is this town, and what type of NPC's do you have there? What level is the sheriff and his deputies? The militia? Any local wizards, clerics, or adepts?

The whole senerio seems a little wonky to me.

Now if the BBEG sent in a troll (or two) to help him break out, maybe bring a few select items with them (maybe chiefly among them a scroll of regeneration)...

[Velcro Zipper]

JezzaL wrote:

However he's going to get busted out of jail by the BBEG.

That's how he's getting out of the jail, but you do have a point. The BBEG could bring him some equipment, but JezzaL only asked if the bard should be CR6 without appropriate equipment and one hand.

[JezzaL]

The BBEG, a pseudolich, is overrunning the town with his controlled undead. He's not aware of the bard, but in the confusion the bard manages to escape from his cell and the pseudolich decides to recruit him as it could be useful to have a living lackey. But the BBEG didn't bring any equipment so the bard is limited to masterwork stuff he can find in the town.
That said, if the PCs don't fight him that day, he will have time to maybe get some better equipment, depending on how long until they actually meet him.

[JezzaL]

Abraham spalding wrote:

My question would be how did he get out of jail then without magical gear manage to slay all the townsfolk, and still be fresh enough to even think about taking on the PC's without magical gear?

Just to clarify, he didn't destroy the town the PCs are currently in, but a small hamlet about a day's travel away, with full gear and resources including a powerful magic artefact.

The PCs captured him and handed him over to the authorities of the small town they're currently in.

[Abraham spalding]

JezzaL wrote:

Abraham spalding wrote:

My question would be how did he get out of jail then without magical gear manage to slay all the townsfolk, and still be fresh enough to even think about taking on the PC's without magical gear?

Just to clarify, he didn't destroy the town the PCs are currently in, but a small hamlet about a day's travel away, with full gear and resources including a powerful magic artefact.

The PCs captured him and handed him over to the authorities of the small town they're currently in.

Yeah, my question was based on the town he would be in after the BBEG recruits him, with the undead actually killing everything it makes much more sense, since he will actually have time to choose to get away if he wants.

You know, and Undead Graft for a new hand might be a good idea. Those are presented in the Fiendish Folio (somewhere else too but I remember those in the FF).

[Velcro Zipper]

Abraham spalding wrote:

You know, and Undead Graft for a new hand might be a good idea. Those are presented in the Fiendish Folio (somewhere else too but I remember those in the FF).

Libris Mortis (p.97) is the book you're probably thinking of. They are on page 214 of the Fiend Folio, but it doesn't have grafts for hands. Libris Mortis has the Skeletal and Mummified hands. Could be pretty cool, especially if the bard sticks around long enough to make level 9 so he can take the Requiem feat (mind-affecting bardic music effects undead.)