Yes, the title is a reply to the recent "Are Goblins Civilized?" thread. In truth, this thread really has little to do with that other thread, other than some coincidental similar, though inverted situations. I expected my newbie players to just hack and slash their way through a goblin den, but after fighting the enemies to a stand-still, they actually managed to capture one of the little greenskins and are trying to negotiate with it (whereas in the other thread, it seemed the players were expected to talk and one ended up committing violence).
The PCs' hostage demanded the party agree to let the goblin women and children go before the captured goblin would help set up a meeting with the tribal leaders. The party was unaware this goblin warren had noncombatants, and they would have let them go anyway when they found them; but the PCs decided to latch onto the goblin's offer and run with it. They agreed tp let the non-combatants go in return for the hostage's promise to lead the party to bigwigs in the tribe.
The lengthy specifics of the circumstances are spoilered below:
The party is in not in top shape right now, and won't really be able to rest much before going on to the impromptu negotiations. The subleaders are goblin barbarian, bard, and ranger. There are around two dozen more goblins who will be present, bows trained on the party to make sure there's no surprises. The party is 2nd level, with a barbarian, ranger, cleric, sorcerer, and rogue.
I figure some of the goblins would be willing to betray their sorcerer leader. They think he has already betrayed them by isolating himself from the rest of the tribe in favor of the human. They would like to supplant him with one of the subleaders and take control over the tribe. They would let the party pass and face the sorcerer, though not taking a direct hand for some level of deniability.
Another group of the goblins are (whether through duty, fear, or both) still loyal to the leader. They would be resistant to any coup, though being "tricksy" as goblins are, they would likely agree to any plan and then turn on their new "allies" once they had reached the sorcerer.
A third group is neutral, too afraid to move against the sorcerer now, but willing to act as part of the coup for the right assurances or incentives.
As a further element, the party also just found a dwarven prisoner of the goblins, unconscious but certainly soon to be awoken. I thought about making him an Expert, but now I'm thinking wizard (specifically a diviner) to give the party some of the knowledge skills and information gathering abilities which they sorely lack. Perhaps even a mystic theurge for some after-combat healing... but definitely NOT another combatant in and of himself. His role might be something to consider... or perhaps not, and he could have no bearing. I don't know, which is why I come to you!
That's the status of the game right now. It came up quite unexpectedly, and I don't feel like I have the time to coherently throw together all the pieces flying around in my head. I'd like to seize this impromptu oppertunity to run a roleplaying and diplomacy adventure (the party has all the social skills split between them), but am not sure how to combine everything to that end. Help, Paizonians!
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Regarding the dwarf:
You could also go another route and say the dwarf is actually working with the human. He only looks like a prisoner because the goblins don't trust him and only let him sleep in the slave pens.
And then there's option number three: The Jewel of the Nile. What that means (if you don't get the reference) is the dwarf is the book. Normally, goblins would have killed a dwarf on sight so what makes this one so special? The human needs him alive because he's like a living library of some ancient, forbidden knowledge. The goblin sorcerer's followers, of course, only see a hated dwarf and wonder why their chief is listening to the human and not roasting the dwarf over a fire or feeding him to the worgs.
Three's the one I'd go with.
Oooooh, I really like the Jewel of the Nile option myself. The party knows that the book is a book already, though, so that would be inconsistent.... unless the book was in a language the goblins couldn't read, requiring the dwarf's knowledge. I would even go so far as to have had the dwarf destroy the book as insurance that the goblins didn't kill him after translating the thing. But, the clue the party needs to the next step of the adventure is hidden in the spine of the book. So, I'll just leave it at the dwarf serving as a translator currently, with his days possibly numbered until the PCs arrived, hopefully his unwitting saviors.
I would like for the dwarf to become a companion NPC in the rest of the campaign, not unlike a cohort (but dissociated from any specific character and remaining fully under my control). Leaving him as an Expert allows him to fill that role without increasing the party's combat power, and will probably stop them from looking at him as a combatant at all. Thanks!
One thing I'm really looking for in terms of the negotiations with the goblins is some way to make it into a dynamic encounter that relies on more than a single die roll. I don't want one Intimidate/Bluff/Diplomacy resolving the entire thing. I'd like a list of wants/demands/suggestions for the goblins that the PCs could explore and work with in their interactions. I haven't had a group that let me really play around with this kind of social encounter before, and it's come up so suddenly I'm feeling rather at a loss.
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- Safety for any warriors who do not oppose the party since they'll need warriors to survive after the party has left.
- They want the elite guard of the sorcerer kept alive if possible since they are the best warriors in the tribe and would probably get in line if the sorcerer was gone.
- They want any treasure possessed by the sorcerer since, as goblins live in a communal society, it technically belongs to the tribe.
- Maybe they want payment for any goblins harmed by the party or payment for the dwarf prisoner the party has freed?
- Immunity from future interference from the party.
See if you can get a list of demands from the party before the next session so you can assign DCs to them or just roleplay it out.
If the dwarf is going to become a regular companion to the party, make sure you give him a reason for wanting to accompany them. It could be something as simple as repayment for saving his life or the party's goals coincide with his own, but he shouldn't just be there because the party needs his skillset.
sounds like you have a great campaign happening there.
Don't know how much help this may be??
If the dwarf is going to become a regular companion to the party, make sure you give him a reason for wanting to accompany them. It could be something as simple as repayment for saving his life or the party's goals coincide with his own, but he shouldn't just be there because the party needs his skillset.
The party ranger is a dwarf and, Bruenor Battlehammer-style, is looking to reclaim a fallen clanhold. I was planning on this dwarf hailing from the same one. Instant in!
So, you're suggesting setting a DC for the PCs to try talking the goblins out of making their demands, and the ones they cannot hit are what the deal ultimately comes down to? I.e., if the tribe wants to keep the sorcerer's gear, the DC would probably be a little lower so the PCs could talk them out of this; but payment for the prisoner may be higher so it's more likely the PCs either have to agree or come up with a Plan B on the spot? Sounds like a good idea and mechanic. Thanks!
sounds like you have a great campaign happening there.
Don't know how much help this may be??
Thanks, raoul! I just couldn't pass up an opportunity to get in some wordplay based off the other thread. I fail all will saves to avoid engaging in that kind of stuff :)
I like Dirk Gently's ideas about civilization in that thread. And, in the real world, it is my understanding that there is a debate over whether orangutans (and possibly chimpanzees?) can be considered to have culture!
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So, you're suggesting setting a DC for the PCs to try talking the goblins out of making their demands, and the ones they cannot hit are what the deal ultimately comes down to? I.e., if the tribe wants to keep the sorcerer's gear, the DC would probably be a little lower so the PCs could talk them out of this; but payment for the prisoner may be higher so it's more likely the PCs either have to agree or come up with a Plan B on the spot? Sounds like a good idea and mechanic. Thanks!
Exactly. This way, the party can't rely on one Nat20 on a Diplomacy or Intimidate check to get everything they want from the goblins. As examples, talking the gobbos out of the sorcerer's loot could start at a DC15 (or higher if the sorcerer has some really good loot.) Talking the goblins out of letting the elite warriors live, might be a DC18 (depending on how bad the goblins need the warriors.) Payment for injured/killed goblins or payment for the dwarf could be DC20 or higher, but I'd make this one something the goblins won't easily back down on. They might come down on the price, but I think an enterprising soon-to-be-chief would want to show how good a leader he is not letting the party get away with a prized prisoner for free. If the party comes up with a good argument, give them a +2 bonus to the check. If their argument is lame, penalize them -2.
If you decide to have the party roll off against the goblins, I'd probably do it this way:
Have the players pick one person to do the talking (preferably the person with the highest social skill if they want to win.) That person makes a roll for each of the demands. Other players can use Aid Another with their own social skill if they can come up with a valid argument to assist the mediation. For every additional player who presents a valid argument and beats the DC10 Aid check, give the speaker a +2 bonus to their check (I wouldn't allow the dwarf to help.) Do the same for the goblins, but only allow the sub-chiefs to speak for the tribe (I'd also give the goblins a +2 bonus to start with because they're already holding all the cards unless the party has shown they could easily defeat the entire village.) Roll off for each demand. Whatever arguments the players win are what the goblins agree to. If the players don't win an argument (or any of them,) they could try again but they'd need new validations and they'll probably take a -2 penalty or more since the goblins have already won and may sense the party is desperate.
You might also allow players to make Sense Motive rolls to help them figure out how they should argue their points if you want to give them a +2 circumstance hint.
Have the goblins hesitate a little. In the meantime the PCs can stay in the goblin camp, not exactly as prisoners, but not exactly as guests either. E.g. they can walk around, but not everywhere.
Let them stay the night. If the players play as well as they have done so far, they will surely post guards. Let one of the guards discover a goblin of the enemy party sneaking around. He is plotting something, e.g. murder of one of the allies of the PCs, kidnapping and running off with the dwarf or something similar. The PCs can then prevent this and present the evidence to the allied goblins, and in this way win their respect and help.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I like Dirk Gently's ideas about civilization in that thread. And, in the real world, it is my understanding that there is a debate over whether orangutans (and possibly chimpanzees?) can be considered to have culture!
Depends.
Do they watch Jon and Kate or the Bachelor? If the answer is yes, then no, they have no culture.