Your explanation reminds me of Vaarsuvius and the potion sellers.
It is, however, entirely possible that Paizo sell the book to Amazon for less than to us.
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Amazon, as a vendor, buys the book at cost. 16 dollars for a 32 dollar book is about right. They don't have store front staff to pay, they have minimal warehouse staff, they're not paying boutique rent for a store front, and are in fact paying a lower warehouse rate than most because of A) the size of their warehouses, and B) the lack of any need for amenities for warehouse staff like bathrooms, OSHA upgrades, or climate control. It's just a big, dark, room with a roof where minimum wage chumps venture in, like a 1st edition D&D party to retrieve, box, and ship off the book.
So, they sell their books at a 3 dollar mark-up, a zillion fanboys say, "I can buy this book for cheap at Amazon! Screw FLGS or Paizo store!" and Amazon makes 3 zillion dollars, of which only a zillion goes towards cost. Most non-volume sellers have about 6 zillion dollars in expenses, just because of the economy of scale, and so they can't compete to get the "price only" consumer.
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Amazon, as a vendor, buys the book at cost. 16 dollars for a 32 dollar book is about right. They don't have store front staff to pay, they have minimal warehouse staff, they're not paying boutique rent for a store front, and are in fact paying a lower warehouse rate than most because of A) the size of their warehouses, and B) the lack of any need for amenities for warehouse staff like bathrooms, OSHA upgrades, or climate control. It's just a big, dark, room with a roof where minimum wage chumps venture in, like a 1st edition D&D party to retrieve, box, and ship off the book.
So, they sell their books at a 3 dollar mark-up, a zillion fanboys say, "I can buy this book for cheap at Amazon! Screw FLGS or Paizo store!" and Amazon makes 3 zillion dollars, of which only a zillion goes towards cost. Most non-volume sellers have about 6 zillion dollars in expenses, just because of the economy of scale, and so they can't compete to get the "price only" consumer.
Those warehouses do have to have legal amenities, and if you think they don't have a lot of employees running around packaging stuff for shipment, and operating the receiving docks, you're Kuh-RAY-zee...heh
I would also guess that their employees make a decent wage. Warehouse and distribution work pays more than you think.
Chief Technical Officer
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On Amazon the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is $31.49, $18.50 less than if I bought here at Paizo and Amazon gives free shipping plus no sales tax.
How can Amazon give a better deal than Paizo when they are buying the book from them?
If we sold the book for lower than list price, our retailers would (rightly) argue that we're undercutting them.
Thus, even though we sell other companies' products for 10% off most of the time, we sell our own products at full retail price.
And, as for sales tax, both Amazon and Paizo charge sales tax to Washington customers only. (We're both Washington businesses.)
It could be they (amazon) see the core rule book as a "dog" item.
True story, when I worked at Lowe's we sold drywall at a lose to us. Why? Because we made a killing on the drywall mud. Now you wouldn't come to Lowe's just to buy drywall mud so we sold the drywall cheap to get you to come in, then sold the mud at a slightly higher amount and made our money there.
Same with Amazon. Yeah they might lose a little money on the Core book, however if they can get you shopping there regularly then they will make more money on you in the long run, and can afford to take the small hit on selling that first book.
We have absolutely no control over what Amazon decides to price our books at. None.
They buy their stuff through distribution, like everyone else, at the same discount as other bookstore accounts.
Here in Germany the publisher sets the price for a (german) book, and all sellers have to respect it - even Amazon.
Here in Germany the publisher sets the price for a (german) book, and all sellers have to respect it - even Amazon.We have absolutely no control over what Amazon decides to price our books at. None.
They buy their stuff through distribution, like everyone else, at the same discount as other bookstore accounts.
Yeah, but only for German books. Which I almost never buy, luckily.
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Here in Germany the publisher sets the price for a (german) book, and all sellers have to respect it - even Amazon.We have absolutely no control over what Amazon decides to price our books at. None.
They buy their stuff through distribution, like everyone else, at the same discount as other bookstore accounts.
I don't think thats right, I'm speaking morally here, not litterally, I'm sure as a German citizen you are correct, but I don't think the manufacturer should be able to set a price that people who buy from them must meet, unless it is specifically negotiated for in a private contract. I like MSRP, but a seller should have the choice if they want to ignore said MSRP.
Granted I hate walking into a 7-11 because it's the only thing open and having to pay $4 for a $2 product, but I pay for the convenience and don't begrudge them making their money.
Also granted there are times when it shouldn't be allowed, price gouging during a disaster etc.
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And with all that I will buy mine from Paizo for a couple of reasons.
I choose to support this company so if I buy a game I buy it from them. The only exception being if they do not have it or it is OOP and I find it on Amazon or Ebay.
Next reason is that I am not going to get a PDF from Amazon and I like the PDFs. As a DM I have my BETA in a notebook printed from the PDF and I have tabs in it. I will do the same with my final rules. As a matter of fact I have the rules split into three books right now. Rules, Magic Items and Spells. Let Amazon do that trick.
Don't get me wrong I love Amazon but it is always my second choice and I support them in different ways.
And with all that I will buy mine from Paizo for a couple of reasons.
I like financially supporting Paizo, but I'm less enthusiastic about financially supporting UPS/USPS, the Canada Customs & Revenue Agency and possibly the good folks at BMO Mosaik Mastercard (if I paid with a credit card instead of a cheque, say). :-/
Part of whats happening here is that a retailer (Amazon) is treating a product that is usually priced like its part of the hobby industry as if it was priced in the same manner as the book industry.
Essentially here is the deal. Books, historically speaking, have fairly low margins (A margin is the the difference between what a retailer buys the product from a publisher or distributor at and what the MSRP is). Trade Paperbacks usually have the best margins of, usually, around 40%. Hardcover texts like those heavy books you lugged around when you were going to school have the worst margin, usually 20%. Other books generally fall some were in between these two points and some publishers play with the numbers a bit but this is basically how it works.
Most other industries, that I have dealt with (and in truth I know books - not so much other industries), have around a 50% margin. Importantly that includes the hobby industry.
The reason for this big discrepancy is essentially risk. The book industry is very unusual in that almost all publishers or distributors allow the retailers to return unsold product. Usually its within a year of buying the product though different publishers sometimes have different rules. On the other hand the Hobby Industry has no returns at all - if I buy something from a distributor like Lion Rampant I better know that I want it because the moment I bought it it's mine forever.
As one might surmise this is a pretty big deal. In the basic book industry the retailers are taking almost no risk at all when they bring books in to try and sell to their customers. Either the books will sell or, if not, then they just send them back to the publisher and get their money back (actually, usually they just take a credit to be used for their next order from that publisher). In theory, from the retailers perspective, its impossible to loose money just because a book sells worse then you expected. Not so in the hobby industry - order too many of a book and your going to have a basement full of unsellable product, order to few and you'll loose sales.
This big difference in risk however effects the pricing of the product in general. Low risk items like books have fairly low margins - you can't loose money but you don't make as much (or, in reality the publisher, who is really taking most of the risk gets a high cut of each products profits). In the hobby industry, because the retailer is taking on much more of the risk they get a bigger cut of the pie.
So - as far as I can tell and talking only about books because thats all I know about, Amazon's basic business model is to sell books at a 20% margin - they take 20% no matter what they bought the product for. Hence you'll notice that they often sell at a steep discount of MSRP for things like Harry Potter soft covers (where the margin is the largest in the industry) and there won't be any discount at all for some really esoteric title like A History of Calculus - with study questions where the margin was 20% to begin with.
However what's important to people that frequent these message boards is that a Paizo product, hardcover or soft is treated as a Hobby Product. It might look like a book to everyone else but its priced as a hobby product - No Returning the product - Big Margin. However Amazon seems t be treating like they do the rest of their books, they are taking only around a 20% cut which translates into very steep discounts.
Thats how Amazon beats out the FLGS. It also deals with how they beat out Paizo itself. Remember that MRSP? Paizo is the manufacturer. They have to sell at the Manufacturers Recommended Sale Price or its not really the MRSP at all.
I don't think thats right, I'm speaking morally here, not litterally
Here in Germany the publisher sets the price for a (german) book, and all sellers have to respect it - even Amazon.
It's not just in Germany. There are several countries around here that have fixed prices for books. In Germany, the only exceptions are preorders, used books, faulty books, and books that have been on the market for more than 18 months and have been absolved from the fix.
The official reason for this, at least in Germany (I guess they're similar everywhere else), is to keep the book as cultural asset variegated and widely available. Without the price war, books with a smaller print war get a chance, as well as smaller book stores.
Actually, think about it: If the price for roleplaying books was fixed, the local gaming stores would be extatic.
Plus, no one could overcharge, either. They'd have to wage the war not with prices, but with service.
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Chief Technical Officer
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...a Paizo product, hardcover or soft is treated as a Hobby Product. It might look like a book to everyone else but its priced as a hobby product - No Returning the product - Big Margin. However Amazon seems t be treating like they do the rest of their books, they are taking only around a 20% cut which translates into very steep discounts.
Amazon is treating it as returnable because it *is* returnable. Most publishers that sell into both the book and hobby trades sell non-returnable to hobby distributors, and returnable to book distributors (at a different discount for each).
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And with all that I will buy mine from Paizo for a couple of reasons.
I choose to support this company so if I buy a game I buy it from them. The only exception being if they do not have it or it is OOP and I find it on Amazon or Ebay.
Next reason is that I am not going to get a PDF from Amazon and I like the PDFs. As a DM I have my BETA in a notebook printed from the PDF and I have tabs in it. I will do the same with my final rules. As a matter of fact I have the rules split into three books right now. Rules, Magic Items and Spells. Let Amazon do that trick.
Don't get me wrong I love Amazon but it is always my second choice and I support them in different ways.
I agree with this sentimentality. I too was wondering about the pragmatism of using Amazon vs Paizo directly - a savings of both the Core Rules and the Bestiary from Amazon (since the purchase has no shipping cost) was like 30 bucks savings!
Can anyone comment for certain that purchasing either or both of those books from Paizo will be accompanied by a "free" PDF?
Thanks
Robert
Can anyone comment for certain that purchasing either or both of those books from Paizo will be accompanied by a "free" PDF?
I am also interested in the answer here, particularly if it's "no" (because I assume that the answer is "yes").
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Chief Technical Officer
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Can anyone comment for certain that purchasing either or both of those books from Paizo will be accompanied by a "free" PDF?
At this time, the only thing we've said in that vein is that we'll be offering subscriptions to the Pathfinder RPG line in the near future, and subscribers will get a free PDF when their subscription copy ships.
That's not to say we won't have other things to say about this sort of thing—that's just all we've said so far.
Can anyone comment for certain that purchasing either or both of those books from Paizo will be accompanied by a "free" PDF?At this time, the only thing we've said in that vein is that we'll be offering subscriptions to the Pathfinder RPG line in the near future, and subscribers will get a free PDF when their subscription copy ships.
That's not to say we won't have other things to say about this sort of thing—that's just all we've said so far.
~pulls out the torture equipment~ We have ways of making you talk! You can either do this the easy way or the hard way. ~pulls out a rusty knife~ Oh, and please do keep the screaming down. The neighbors have been complaining lately.
~GRINS~
I work in a book store. I typically order directly through my supply channels so that I can get my employee discount. It's often not as good as getting it from Amazon, but it keeps my money more local, it helps my sales numbers, and I'm sure I'll get it.
That is the way I typically purchase books - including RPG books and accessories (for example, our margin on Dungeon Tiles is sufficient that I can get my discount on them, while Amazon doesn't discount them at all). I managed to get a copy of Classic Monsters Revisited in print just two weeks ago because one of my common vendors still had a couple of copies in stock (yay!).
That said, I am hopeful that ordering the RPG from Paizo will provide me with a PDF. I like having my core rulebooks in PDF form, even if I don't use those as much. Especially with a 576 page book, I don't want to have to lug it everywhere to use it, and I suspect there won't be as many copies of it at my gaming table due to the standard price point.
If Paizo doesn't provide a PDF with purchase, I'll be much more likely to order it from my supplier and get my discount on it. It's just that simple, and it'll make the wife happier about our finances.
I don't think thats right, I'm speaking morally here, not litterally, I'm sure as a German citizen you are correct, but I don't think the manufacturer should be able to set a price that people who buy from them must meet, unless it is specifically negotiated for in a private contract. I like MSRP, but a seller should have the choice if they want to ignore said MSRP.
Granted I hate walking into a 7-11 because it's the only thing open and having to pay $4 for a $2 product, but I pay for the convenience and don't begrudge them making their money.
Also granted there are times when it shouldn't be allowed, price gouging during a disaster etc.
I'm pretty sure that we'll be seeing more of this here in the US in the coming years. A couple of years back (2007 I think) there was a case that was upheld wherein a manufacture argued and won that they had the right to establish/control the selling price of their product. There were a number of caveats, not the least of which they were able to "prove" that this was in the best interest of the customer/consumer.
I thought that I heard recently that Mayfair Games (?) was trying to use this precedent to establish more control of the prices of their boardgames. Continuing to speculate, I strongly suspect that the "biggies" like WotC and GW are watching these cases very closely and will move once they feel they fully understand the legal ground.
Not sure where it will all pan out, but I suspect in the coming years you'll see less discrepancy between the prices offered by internet (read discounted) retailers and regular b&m stores.
All that being said, like others, I like to support Paizo because their subscription includes the PDF, which generally balances out with the pricing offered by others. Plus, I'm able to support the company directly.
AJC
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That said, I am hopeful that ordering the RPG from Paizo will provide me with a PDF. I like having my core rulebooks in PDF form, even if I don't use those as much. Especially with a 576 page book, I don't want to have to lug it everywhere to use it, and I suspect there won't be as many copies of it at my gaming table due to the standard price point.If Paizo doesn't provide a PDF with purchase, I'll be much more likely to order it from my supplier and get my discount on it. It's just that simple, and it'll make the wife happier about our finances.
And that was exactly my point. I love supporting Paizo as well (directly) and subscribe to four different product lines because of it and love the PDFs I get. And though I would as a general rule buy from the source here because of my respect of their company, to save 30 dollars in the process of those two books is just too good to pass on if there's no PDF in the ante to sway me from Amazon's good deal.
Either way - I'll still be buying them both without a doubt! I've been very much looking foward to the official RPG books being released!
Robert
We will announce this soon, probably by the end of Paizocon.
Do you think those of us who have pre-ordered the PFRPG and monster book would be able to convert that into a subscription? That would be ideal, particularly if we'd then be able to get a free PDF of the books.
Do you think those of us who have pre-ordered the PFRPG and monster book would be able to convert that into a subscription? That would be ideal, particularly if we'd then be able to get a free PDF of the books.We will announce this soon, probably by the end of Paizocon.
They said (repeatedly - not that I'm accusing you of not paying attention or anything. I mea LISTEN TO ME WHEN I TALK! ;-)) that when you subscribe, your first preorder will automatically convert to your subscription book (and get all the nice benefits).
They said (repeatedly - not that I'm accusing you of not paying attention or anything. I mea LISTEN TO ME WHEN I TALK! ;-)) that when you subscribe, your first preorder will automatically convert to your subscription book (and get all the nice benefits).Do you think those of us who have pre-ordered the PFRPG and monster book would be able to convert that into a subscription? That would be ideal, particularly if we'd then be able to get a free PDF of the books.We will announce this soon, probably by the end of Paizocon.
That's good to see. I haven't paid much attention to the blogs and my participation in threads tends to skitter around. So I hadn't seen that before. Thanks.
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Let me add in my little Amazon horror story here, for the sake of those that haven't ordered Paizo stuff from them in the past. I ordered the Beta from Amazon something like 4 months before it was published... and NEVER recieved it, due to supply and demand issues before the print run was gone. Had to travel about 100 miles to a brick-and-mortar store to get my copy. So for an item that may sell out quick, like the first run of the Pathfinder RPG, you might want to order directly from Paizo if timeliness means anything to you. I am from now on!
We have absolutely no control over what Amazon decides to price our books at. None.
They buy their stuff through distribution, like everyone else, at the same discount as other bookstore accounts.
that has to be somewhat frustrating.
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Amazon is both a blessing and a curse to our hobby. I can't fault them in all honesty, but it would be nice if some kind of industry standard would take place to put them in check with the rest of the industry. Amazon not having a large overhead is a major advantage compared to brick and mortar stores. Even the major chains are starting to have a problem competing, which is due to them not learning to adapt to the market, but FLGS can't adapt or at least not completely. As long as stores have that overhead cost they won’t be able to fully compete without changing their strategy.
A friend of mine hit the nail on the head for the major chains. If they want to beat Amazon at their game they have to restructure and take the majority of their business online, turning their local stores into distribution centers. Customers can still come in and purchase at the stores, but the main purpose is to store books and serve as shipping locations for a given region. They also need to focus, as far as their store front, in making a visit about the experience. I go to a Barnes & Noble or Borders it’s a pretty relaxing experience, almost like being in a library. I love hanging out at those kinds of book stores. Waldenbooks on the other hand, which I use to love visiting, now feels empty because there’s nothing there other than books. The same can be said about FLGS.
Gaming over 25 years, I’ve seen a lot of game stores come and go. I’m not going to cite the national life expectancy, but it isn’t very long. Part of that problem stems from failure to provide an experience that gamers want. Gamers want a place to play. Every FLGS that is still around today offers that to their customers in some form. Many FLGS are trying to find ways to compete with online sales while those that aren’t are slowly dying out. I know a few stores that offer discount on bulk Magic purchases, discounting booster boxes, offering discounts on preordered books and such. They know that most gamers are strapped for cash and will go where it’s cheapest. I’m even guilty of that.
Where we as the consumer can adapt and change is by trying to support our FLGS as best we can. I tend to buy multiple copies of books that I will be using consistently so that I have a good copy at home. I try to buy at least one from my FLGS. It has to be a major discount before I’ll buy it from Amazon also. By that I mean saving me more than five bucks. I can spare five bucks for a book because not much can be bought for that. However if I’m going to save 10 or more then I am more likely to go that route. I comparison shop so much these days it would make some women jealous. Due to this trend I tend to buy most of my Pathfinder stuff at my FLGS, and get all my hardbound stuff from Amazon. I’m still averaging 40-50 dollars a month at my FLGS despite going to the internet.
Then there’s always the stuff that for one reason or another you can’t get from Amazon or they want way more than it’s worth (at least the vendors that sell through them if they don’t have it). A good example of this would be the anniversary edition of Axis & Allies that retails for 99.99, but now goes for two to three times that on Amazon via their other sellers. My FLGS still has a copy of it at retail. There are also products on Amazon that for one reason or another aren’t available despite actually being available. That’s how I got my Cortex RPG book.
Finally we can run games and demos for the store. I head a local gaming group that meets every weekend at our FLGS. My players make up where I’ve slacked off. The biggest benefit is that we pull new players in who then buy on impulse, which is where FLGS make most of their business as much of our hobby is still impulse. We can’t get over the “I got to have it now” syndrome, especially after watching someone kick butt with something from a specific handbook that made their character shiny, and so we walk down the aisle where the book is at and carry it up to the register, slapping our hard earned money down for it. All of that happened because someone took the time to run a game at their LFGS, who provided a place to play, and invited people to join them.
Overall Amazon is a new business concept that is taking everyone time to get use to. FLGS need to find a happy medium and continue to offer what Amazon can never offer; the in-store experience.
And, as for sales tax, both Amazon and Paizo charge sales tax to Washington customers only. (We're both Washington businesses.)
Amazon charges sales tax to orders shipped to WA, ND, KS, KY and NY. It was a very ugly year once NY started requiring tax on Amazon orders shipped to NY.
As for the warehouses being big empty rooms waiting for 1st level adventure parties; not quite. They're fully OSHA compliant mazes of extremely large shelving, lanes specifically for forklifts; several sorting/receiving bays and big conveyers to get product from shelves to packaging to the door.
During the Holiday time, each one nearly quadruples in employee size. The CS centers double or triple employment as needed.
As for pricing, it's whatever deal they get from the distributors then mark up appropriately for their costs. Still comes out much less than retail.
...a Paizo product, hardcover or soft is treated as a Hobby Product. It might look like a book to everyone else but its priced as a hobby product - No Returning the product - Big Margin. However Amazon seems t be treating like they do the rest of their books, they are taking only around a 20% cut which translates into very steep discounts.Amazon is treating it as returnable because it *is* returnable. Most publishers that sell into both the book and hobby trades sell non-returnable to hobby distributors, and returnable to book distributors (at a different discount for each).
Seriously? I know you can do it with WoTC through Random House but thought they were the exception to the rule. I did not realize you could do it with other publishers. So whose your Canadian distributor? Or are you the Canadian distributor?
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Chief Technical Officer
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Amazon is treating it as returnable because it *is* returnable. Most publishers that sell into both the book and hobby trades sell non-returnable to hobby distributors, and returnable to book distributors (at a different discount for each).Seriously? I know you can do it with WoTC through Random House but thought they were the exception to the rule. I did not realize you could do it with other publishers.
Our book distribution has nothing to do with either Wizards or Random House.
Book publishers who wish to sell into traditional bookstores, chains, or retailers like Amazon go through any one of a number of book trade distributors. We go through Diamond Book Distributors; Amazon buys our products from them.
So whose your Canadian distributor? Or are you the Canadian distributor?
Our current Canadian hobby distributors are Lion Rampant, New Century, and Universal. Here's our full hobby distributor list.
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Let me add in my little Amazon horror story here, for the sake of those that haven't ordered Paizo stuff from them in the past. I ordered the Beta from Amazon something like 4 months before it was published... and NEVER recieved it, due to supply and demand issues before the print run was gone. Had to travel about 100 miles to a brick-and-mortar store to get my copy. So for an item that may sell out quick, like the first run of the Pathfinder RPG, you might want to order directly from Paizo if timeliness means anything to you. I am from now on!
ohh I know this directly, that is why I never got my phisic copy of the Beta book :P
meh
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I'm pretty sure that we'll be seeing more of this here in the US in the coming years. A couple of years back (2007 I think) there was a case that was upheld wherein a manufacture argued and won that they had the right to establish/control the selling price of their product.
AJC
This might be related but not exactly the same. Warner Brothers, Fox and and Universal Studios have all taken steps against RedBox ($1-per-night DVD rental kiosks). So far these steps have been in the realm of the marketplace like refusing to sell to RedBox and forcing their distributors to not sell to RedBox. This forces RedBox to buy their DVDs at the full retail price.
Fox and Universal have been sued by Redbox over allegedly violating antitrust laws. (http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2009/08/13/business/AP-US-Warner-Bros-Redb ox.html?scp=1&sq=redbox&st=cse)Given the susceptibility of the American System of Government to lobbying and special interests I would not be surprised to see some law regarding this in the future.
Hawk Of May
It's not just in Germany. There are several countries around here that have fixed prices for books. In Germany, the only exceptions are preorders, used books, faulty books, and books that have been on the market for more than 18 months and have been absolved from the fix.The official reason for this, at least in Germany (I guess they're similar everywhere else), is to keep the book as cultural asset variegated and widely available. Without the price war, books with a smaller print war get a chance, as well as smaller book stores.
Actually, think about it: If the price for roleplaying books was fixed, the local gaming stores would be extatic.
Plus, no one could overcharge, either. They'd have to wage the war not with prices, but with service.
A swiss study shows that fixed book prices keep the overall prices for books low (with the exception of the beststellers), and indeed help smaller publishers, smaller print runs and smaller book stores to stay in the market. Generally, I think we can´t complain about book prices and variety in Germany, so I see no necessity to do away with fixed prices.
That said, I did save some money by buying used or damaged books, and will probably do so in the future - but not for gaming (not counting OOP titels via ebay etc.). I love my gaming books brand new.Stefan
On Amazon the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Core Rulebook is $31.49, $18.50 less than if I bought here at Paizo and Amazon gives free shipping plus no sales tax.
How can Amazon give a better deal than Paizo when they are buying the book from them?
they are located in Cheliax
Just wanted to point out -
As a subscriber of the adventure paths... and thus having my "pathfinder advantage"... I subscribed and purchased my copy of the PFRPG directly from Paizo.
If you minus the $9.99 "cost" of the pdf you get for free by subscribing (I would have wanted to purchase both anyway) I only ended up paying a dollar or so more that the $31 something amazon was charging for the PFRPG before shipping. Looking at it that way... I really didn't pay that much more buying directly from Paizo than I would have been buying the book from Amazon and buying the pdf from Paizo.
So really, the only difference to me, was the cost of shipping.
As long as Paizo continues to give free PDF copies of the books with subscriptions, and continues to offer combined shipping options, I don't mind spending a few extra bucks on shipping to support Paizo directly.