Help with a 4e race update

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

So I got a wild urge to play a kenku today, but gosh darn it, those guys at WotC seem hell bent on making me wait for them. So I took a look around at the various homebrew versions I could find, and I thought they had some good ideas, but none of them were really doing it for me (the racial powers in particular didn't grab me, either because they felt wonky, or not particularly kenku-y. Not to diminish their efforts though, mad props to the homebrewers).

So I've slapped together an amalgamation of them, and I'd like to hear what you guys think of it.

BTW, I took the vast majority of this from other people, so I'm not going to claim any sort of authorship of it. If you want to check out the work of actually creative people, check out this one by DreamStalker, part way down the page, this one by Siberys, most recent version is post #10, and this one by Wizardmon, partway down the page.

[b wrote:

Kenku Racial Traits[/b]]

Average Height: 4'10"-5'2"
Average Weight: 60-90 lb.

Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, one other
Skill Bonuses: +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth

Great Ally: When you use the Aid Another action, or benefit from an ally's use of the Aid Another action, increase the bonus from +2 to +3.
Kenku Opportunity: When a Kenku gains combat advantage by flanking an enemy, they gain an additional +1 to their attack rolls.
Mimicry: A Kenku may replicate any sound they have heard at least once, up to and including another person's voice. This does not confer the ability to speak a language the kenku does not understand, though they may mimic specific phrases they have heard. When attempting to fool a listener into believing the sounds are genuine, the Kenku makes a bluff check opposed by the listener's insight.
Winterkin: Kenku get a +1 to fortitude defense due to their connection with the Raven Queen.
Natural Sneak: Kenku may use Bluff as a minor action in combat, instead of a standard action.

Instead of a racial power, I put in Natural Sneak, kind of similar to the Dwarven ability to use Second Wind as a minor action, but with the idea that they'll use it to feint or hide in combat instead.

I also kept the Winterkin ability, which was ported in from the Shadar-Kai, because as someone pointed out, races with bonuses to two abilities that determine the same defense usually get a bonus to a different defense to compensate. I'm not using the Raven Queen in any of my games, and will probably change the name of that racial feature to something else.

So, what do you guys think?

[Matthew Koelbl]

Initial post eaten by forum. :(

Quick summary of my thoughts:
-At first, I though the Raven Queen connection was an intentional one, since I can see some very interesting fluff coming from that. :) Either way, the power seems fitting, whatever fluff ends up given for it.

-The Bluff as minor action is an interesting thought, but I have some concerns. Second Wind is useful for anyone. A free bluff is potentially useless for someone bad at bluffing - and even some good characters at bluffing (Sorcerers) might not be melee types to need the feint, or stealthy types to need the distraction. Perhaps better would be a racial power that gives a similar result without the reliance on a skill. "Kenku Manuever", a move action encounter power which lets them shift 3 squares and gain combat advantage for their next attack - that seems to fit the feint/distraction concept while being useful for anyone and on par with other racial powers. You might then go on to give some racial feats that enhance bluffing, so those who want them can take them.

-Speaking of racial feats, I think Kenku Opportunity should be one as well. Getting that reliable a +1 to hit seems a bit strong. As a feat, though, it seems reasonable.

[Blazej]

I actually think that the minor action Bluff is likely to be useful to almost all characters. Their racial skill bonuses are certainly enough to make it so most Kenku are not bad at the skill checks involved, even if they are not trained.

I am unsure how powerful the "Create a Diversion" ability is as written in PH2. I'm not sure that it will find much use in much combats beyond a fast way to attempt to gain combat advantage against an opponent. I almost think that it would be a better option would be to make "Gain Combat Advantage" into a minor action instead, as that would seem to make the power of other racial abilities better.

Edit: Oops, read it wrong, it does apply to "Gain Combat Advantage" currently since it mentions using Bluff is a minor action.

I would then suggest that extra +1 bonus to flanking attacks might be to much here. The similar ability I find among other races is the Dragonborn's +1 to attacks while bloodied, and to me the flanking is much easier and safer to gain. I'm not sure though.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

First off, thanks so much for your input guys, I really appreciate it!

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

-At first, I though the Raven Queen connection was an intentional one, since I can see some very interesting fluff coming from that. :) Either way, the power seems fitting, whatever fluff ends up given for it.

It definitely has some fluff potential, and I have to admit connecting them to the Raven Queen fits pretty well. But, like I said, I'm not using 4e's cosmology, so it doesn't work for me entirely.

That said, I think I came up with a flavor that does:

Kenku Racial Entry wrote:

Carrion Eater: Kenku are descended from scavengers, and retain a resistance to physical ailments, giving them a +1 to their Fortitude defense.

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

-The Bluff as minor action is an interesting thought, but I have some concerns. Second Wind is useful for anyone. A free bluff is potentially useless for someone bad at bluffing - and even some good characters at bluffing (Sorcerers) might not be melee types to need the feint, or stealthy types to need the distraction. Perhaps better would be a racial power that gives a similar result without the reliance on a skill. "Kenku Manuever", a move action encounter power which lets them shift 3 squares and gain combat advantage for their next attack - that seems to fit the feint/distraction concept while being useful for anyone and on par with other racial powers. You might then go on to give some racial feats that enhance bluffing, so those who want them can take them.

Blazej wrote:

I actually think that the minor action Bluff is likely to be useful to almost all characters. Their racial skill bonuses are certainly enough to make it so most Kenku are not bad at the skill checks involved, even if they are not trained.

I was thinking about this exact issue today at work today, and I'm leaning towards making it a feat instead of a racial ability. I really like the concept, and it has a lot of cool potential, but I get the feeling like it might be a bit too corner case for a racial power substitute. Its certainly not un-useful to characters, but its not quite as generally useful as other racial powers are.

So I'm thinking a Kenku feat that lets them use Bluff as a minor action in combat might work, although I feel like I should limit that somehow (maybe once per encounter, so they'd have to choose whether to Feint OR Hide?).

If not a feat, then I do like the idea of a power that shifts them and gives them CA against someone, and it seems useful in enough situations to work. Is something like this what you were thinking of?

Kenku Racial Power wrote:

Voice Trick Kenku Racial Power
"Over here!" Your enemy hears behind them. As they turn, you take advantage of their distraction to slip around their defenses and strike.
Encounter
Minor Action Ranged 3
Target: One enemy in range
Effect: You shift 3 squares and gain combat advantage against the target until the end of your next turn.

The other option I thought of was something akin to Siberys' Screech power, but instead of having the thunder keyword and causing damage, have it be a Fear power that pushes enemies back, because, you know, Ravens are spooky.

Kenku Racial Power wrote:

Harbinger's Call Kenku Racial Power
You let out an echoing, ominous cry, chilling your enemies to the bone.
Encounter X Fear
Minor Action Close burst 1
Target: All enemies in range
Effect: You push the targets 1 square. The first target that attacks you before the end of your next turn takes a -2 to their attack roll against you.

Not sure about it at the moment, just kind of spitballing.

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

-Speaking of racial feats, I think Kenku Opportunity should be one as well. Getting that reliable a +1 to hit seems a bit strong. As a feat, though, it seems reasonable.

Blazej wrote:

I would then suggest that extra +1 bonus to flanking attacks might be to much here. The similar ability I find among other races is the Dragonborn's +1 to attacks while bloodied, and to me the flanking is much easier and safer to gain. I'm not sure though.

It didn't strike me as being particularly overpowered at first, but now that you guys mention it, flanking is pretty easy to set up (especially if they have a power that shifts them). A feat could work pretty well, and seems like it would be in line with other racial feats.

Should I give them something else in its place? They seem a little underpowered if all they get is a bonus to the aid another action.

Maybe some kind of tie in with their light bone structure? Something that reduces falling damage could work, and would be useful regardless of whether their trained in Acrobatics or not.

Again, thanks for taking the time to talk about it with me, I really appreciate it guys.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Alright, well here's the new version then.

Spoiler:

[b wrote:

Kenku Racial Traits[/b]]

Average Height: 4'10"-5'2"
Average Weight: 60-90 lb.

Ability Scores: +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, one other
Skill Bonuses: +2 Bluff, +2 Stealth

Great Ally: When you use the Aid Another action, or benefit from an ally's use of the Aid Another action, add +1 to the Aid Another bonus.
Mimicry: A Kenku may replicate any sound they have heard at least once, up to and including another person's voice. This does not confer the ability to speak a language the kenku does not understand, though they may mimic specific phrases they have heard. When attempting to fool a listener into believing the sounds are genuine, the Kenku makes a bluff check opposed by the listener's insight.
Carrion Eater: Kenku, having descended from scavengers, are particularly resistant to physical afflictions, gaining a +1 to their Fortitude defense.
Voice Trick: Kenku may use the Voice Trick power once per encounter.

[b wrote:

Voice Trick[/b]]

Voice Trick - Kenku Racial Power
You throw your voice behind your enemy, distracting him long enough for you to slip past his defenses.
Encounter
Minor Action - Ranged 3
Target: One enemy within range.
Effect: You shift 1 square and gain combat advantage against the target until the end of your next turn.

I dropped Voice Trick down to a shift 1, because shift 3 is a bit hard core for a minor action.

Here's the ideas I'm considering for feats:

Heroic Tier

Coordinated Backstabber
Prerequisite: Kenku
Benefit: While you have combat advantage against an enemy due to flanking, you gain an additional +1 to attack rolls against that enemy.

Streetspeak Adept
Prerequisite: Kenku
Benefit: When you roll a bluff check while using your Mimic ability and dislike the result, you may reroll that check. You must take the second roll, regardless of its outcome.

Coward's Cunning
Prerequisite: Kenku
Benefit: When using your Voice Trick power, you may forgo gaining combat advantage against the target to shift 3 squares instead of 1. If at the end of this movement you have concealment, you may make a stealth check to become hidden.

Paragon Tier

Vicious Sneak
Prerequisite: Kenku, 11th level
Benefit: When using your Voice Trick power to gain combat advantage, you gain a bonus to damage rolls against the target equal to your dexterity modifier with the first attack you make before the end of your next turn.

[Matthew Koelbl]

All of that looks quite good. I was considering a suggestion that Voice Trick could have the shift increased (and making it a move action to compensate), but with the presence of the very cool Coward's Cunning, I think it looks great as is!

I think you are correct in your earlier assessment that they could use about one more racial feature.

Here's one I think might be fitting:
Life of Suspicion: When enemies have combat advantage against you, they gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls rather than the normal +2 bonus. Any other benefits derived from combat advantage still apply.

Adds a bit more of a in-combat benefit (while the others will likely be most useful out of combat), and seems to fit their skills and concept (from what I can tell).

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

All of that looks quite good. I was considering a suggestion that Voice Trick could have the shift increased (and making it a move action to compensate), but with the presence of the very cool Coward's Cunning, I think it looks great as is!

I think you are correct in your earlier assessment that they could use about one more racial feature.

Here's one I think might be fitting:
Life of Suspicion: When enemies have combat advantage against you, they gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls rather than the normal +2 bonus. Any other benefits derived from combat advantage still apply.

Adds a bit more of a in-combat benefit (while the others will likely be most useful out of combat), and seems to fit their skills and concept (from what I can tell).

Thanks! I'm glad you liked Coward's Cunning.

Your Life of Suspicion also looks very cool, I think I may add that in. Like you say, they don't really have a solid In-Combat feature at the moment.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

Here's one I think might be fitting:
Life of Suspicion: When enemies have combat advantage against you, they gain a +1 bonus to attack rolls rather than the normal +2 bonus. Any other benefits derived from combat advantage still apply.

Actually, after considering it for a bit, I'm not entirely sure if this is balanced with other racial bonuses.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, and the flavor works, but Combat Advantage crops up quite a bit in 4e, and since it reduces the bonus, it basically works out to being a +1 to all defenses.

Maybe if it only works on attacks that target AC? Otherwise, maybe find a way to limit how often it occurs Maybe it only reduces Combat Advantage attained in certain ways? I'd hate to use flanking again though, or else they might come off as a one trick pony. Maybe a bonus to AC during Surprise Rounds? I'm not entirely sure about that, since it comes off as more super-aware than Suspicious.

Here's a thought: What about making it a +1 to Initiative Checks? I don't know of any race that currently has that. Do you think it would be balanced?

[Blazej]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Actually, after considering it for a bit, I'm not entirely sure if this is balanced with other racial bonuses.

Don't get me wrong, I love the idea, and the flavor works, but Combat Advantage crops up quite a bit in 4e, and since it reduces the bonus, it basically works out to being a +1 to all defenses.

Maybe if it only works on attacks that target AC? Otherwise, maybe find a way to limit how often it occurs Maybe it only reduces Combat Advantage attained in certain ways? I'd hate to use flanking again though, or else they might come off as a one trick pony. Maybe a bonus to AC during Surprise Rounds? I'm not entirely sure about that, since it comes off as more super-aware than Suspicious.

Here's a thought: What about making it a +1 to Initiative Checks? I don't know of any race that currently has that. Do you think it would be balanced?

I actually thought what Koelbl suggested was pretty reasonable balance-wise. There is the paragon feat Uncanny Dodge from the Player's Handbook that doesn't let enemies gain the +2 bonus to attacks from combat advantage.

The biggest penalty for getting the feat [Uncanny Dodge] is the "Wisdom 15" requirement.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Blazej wrote:

I actually thought what Koelbl suggested was pretty reasonable balance-wise. There is the paragon feat Uncanny Dodge from the Player's Handbook that doesn't let enemies gain the +2 bonus to attacks from combat advantage.

The biggest penalty for getting the feat [Uncanny Dodge] is the "Wisdom 15" requirement.

That's true, I had forgotten about that feat. And, now that you mention it, I know there's also a fairly low level neck item that does the same thing for one encounter/day.

I'm probably just being over cautious about it. Its a fun idea, lets add it in.

I have to say, I'm pretty pleased at how this is coming together, and I want to thank you both again so much for your help and ideas!

[Matthew Koelbl]

Yeah, while Combat Advantage does happen, I don't think it is common enough to make this too overpowered. I'd say it isn't likely to crop up any more than some of the other races conditional defenses (whether that is resistance to certain damage types, bonus defenses against bloodied enemies or while bloodied, and so forth.)

Anyway, definitely looking like everything is coming together well!

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

SQUEE!

Kenku showed up in the Steal This Hook article from Wednesday, which means they're totally going to be in MM2.

Linky

If MM2 is anything like MM1, with the whole playable monster section in the back, then we may very well have an official Kenku sooner than I thought.

[Blazej]

That would seem likely.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Although part of me does feel the need to gripe about the timing.

I just set up a playtest with my roommate, he was going to run me playing a few characters through the new freebie Keep on the Shadowfell update, one of which was a Kenku Rogue.

[Scott Betts]

The Kenku is confirmed as one of the three playable races provided in the MM2 appendix, from what I recall.

[Matthew Koelbl]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Although part of me does feel the need to gripe about the timing.

I just set up a playtest with my roommate, he was going to run me playing a few characters through the new freebie Keep on the Shadowfell update, one of which was a Kenku Rogue.

Heh. To be fair, the NPC races are not usually quite as fully developed as the PC races, so you might have a market to still play around with your own rules for a bit.

But interestingly enough, the final product sounds incredibly similar to your original: Dex and Cha instead of Dex and Int (and thus no Fort bonus, naturally), but the same skills, the same bonuses on Aid Another and Flanking, the same mimicry...

That's based on the previews mentioned over on Rpg.net, where some of the posters who have gotten early copies in Japan have been sharing previews, and is usually pretty reliable. Looks like you and WotC may have been exactly on the same wavelength here!

I think your final version ends up cooler, though. ~grin~

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

Although part of me does feel the need to gripe about the timing.

I just set up a playtest with my roommate, he was going to run me playing a few characters through the new freebie Keep on the Shadowfell update, one of which was a Kenku Rogue.

Heh. To be fair, the NPC races are not usually quite as fully developed as the PC races, so you might have a market to still play around with your own rules for a bit.

But interestingly enough, the final product sounds incredibly similar to your original: Dex and Cha instead of Dex and Int (and thus no Fort bonus, naturally), but the same skills, the same bonuses on Aid Another and Flanking, the same mimicry...

That's based on the previews mentioned over on Rpg.net, where some of the posters who have gotten early copies in Japan have been sharing previews, and is usually pretty reliable. Looks like you and WotC may have been exactly on the same wavelength here!

I think your final version ends up cooler, though. ~grin~

You know, I almost went with Cha, so seeing that they did actually makes me pretty happy.

As for the rest of it, well, a lot is basically the stuff they got in 3.5, just fourth editionized.

I have to agree with one of the comments on the rpg.net forums, Kenku are probably going to be the first MM2 race we get a writeup for in Dragon, and I for one am really looking forward to it.

And I have you and blazej to thank for the final product, glad you enjoy it!

[Blazej]

I decided to throw a race I've been trying to convert to 4th as well (in part to keep this thread going as a way to keep race conversions coming). Not so much as my infinite love for it, but I have been somewhat enjoying trying to solve the problems that come with converting this particular race.

This is the Dvati, a race that most recently showed up in Dragon Compendium. One character, two bodies, one mind. You control two twins that run around independently, capable of performing actions individually.

I think that this is one of the most complicated races (at least, by length of the rules text) to exist in 3.5, so I wanted to make an attempt to convert it because of that. Right now I'm not really sure how much sense much of this will make as this was mostly written later at night when I should have likely been sleeping. But I find it hard to stop thinking about this without actually making progress on it and finishing it. I will likely come back tommorrow and edit large chucks of it for spelling, but I seem to prefer that to waiting. I would rather see if anyone has a better idea than spend hours fumbling for the words without rambling (like this probably is).

I wrote:

Dvati

Racial Traits
Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma The dvati had no ability score adjustments so I chose these based on them being exceptional bards (Charisma), as well as considering the increased mental power of two perspectives (Wisdom). I'm not sure about Wisdom as much, that might be handled by the skill bonuses.
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, Dvati I'm not sure if this should be adjusted or not because almost every game is not going to feature the Dvati language at any point. It might be good to add a third language, but I'm not sure yet.
Skill Bonuses: +2 Insight, +2 Perception These seemed most natural for the race that can see from multiple perspectives and such.
Twins: You are a single being divided between two identical bodies. You control an additional Medium-sized character with same statistics, but not necessarily the same equipment. The twins can communicate telepathically and are aware of the direction and distance of a twin as long as they are on the same plane. Both twins act on the same initiative. Each twin does not get seperate actions each turn, you can only have them perform no more actions than a single character (One standard action, minor action, and immediate action per round; one opportunity attack per turn), when you take a move action the other twin can also spend a move action (not necessarily on the same action) I really don't like how I describe this, it feels too long and still too ambigious as to the meaning. Each twin has hit points equal to 1/2 of what would be the maximum hit points of the character, becomes bloodied when her hit points are equal to or below 1/4 pf what would be the maximum hit points of the character, and dies when her hit points are reduced to negative 1/2 of what would be the maximum hit points of the character. I don't like how I phrase this, I was using the "bloodied" and "surge" values instead, but I realized that one could improve their surge value with items at minimum and that it was likely that bloodied value would be affected by similar abilities at some point later on. Also, I almost set each to die at -1/4 hp, but I felt that would add too much fragility to the race.

Both twins have access to the same set of abilities, but both count toward the limited number of times you can perform those actions. One, but not both, of the twins can expend a single daily ability before recieving an extended rest, only one of the twins can use sneak attack in a round, and so forth.

Your twin is considered a creature and an ally and can be affected by powers. A cleric can heal her with healing word, a warlord can give it a melee basic attack with commander's strike, and so forth. You and your twin are treated as seperate creatures. Paraphrased from Martial Powers description of the Beast Companion. I'm not sure if I want to add any mention of not being able to target your twin with a power that can only target allies. It would complicate this ability even more than it currently is, for the bonus of not being able to cheat with abilities that are meant to target other characters.

When one twin receives healing you can apply any amount of that healing to your other twin as you see fit. If both would be healed by the same ability, take only one of the healing values. I don't think that granting a sort of double healing bonus for those many powers that heal allies in an area.

When one twin is stunned or dazed, both are stunned or dazed. [ooc]Makes them more vulnerable to such attacks, but this seemed to be the easist solution to the problem of them being virtually immune to these abilities in that, if one is stunned the other takes her full turn without being really effected. I'm not sure if that is too big of a bonus or not.

If one twin dies the other's maximum hit points drop by 5 each day until she dies or the dead twin is revived. I think that a disease track might work with this better, but that would make this ability even longer. It might be worth it, I would just rather shorten this ability rather than make it longer.

Echo attack: You gain echo attack as an encounter power.

Nesting wrote:

Encounter power: Echo attack: Minor Action. Close burst 5. Prerequisite: Your other twin must be concious. Targets: Enemies in burst within 5 squares of your twin. Effect: Target grants combat advantage and takes a -1 penalty to attacks until the end of your next turn.

I'm tempted to make this more like the Dragonborn's breath weapon and make it an attack, I'm not really sure how I feel about racial attacks though.

Greater Point of View: You have a +1 racial bonus to Reflex. Don't like the name, and am not really sure about the power of this compared to Will or Fortitude. A higher Intelligence or Dexterity would have an opportunity to improve both Reflex and AC, as opposed to only one defense going up.

I'm not sure about adding another abilities in here. Twins makes this racial description long enough, without adding other abilities. In addition, I'm not really sure how powerful Twins is, if the weaknesses present outnumber the ability's bonuses.

Currently I am more apt to put other racial abilities into feats. Such abilities include; improved flanking with twin, improved aid another with twin, and something adding a resistance to mental attacks [charm, fear, psychic] due to them sharing a mind (I would rather this be an ability in the race saying that a mental power that effects one dvati, effects both, but I'm trying to keep as much stuff as I can out of the racial description itself).

They are also vulnerable to area of effect abilities; blasts, bursts, and auras all have a chance at being twice as effective against the dvati. At lower levels, I think that this is not really a problem as one can easily avoid putting them close enough to be caught together in the same effect. However at higher levels, with large aura effects specifically, I would be more concerned about the dvati taking double damage in such fights. So an epic feat would likely be such that, in addition to other boons, would cause them to only take damage once from any single attack or ability and that damage is divided between the twins.

The last thing that comes to mind that is necessary is equipment. It would be a large barrier if a Dvati had to buy two sets of equipment. Previously I think that this was countered by other factors, but now is more of an issue with the system in 4th edition and the way I defined the races abilities.
My initial solution is to create a ritual that some how lets you turn one magic item into two. For example if you have a +2 magic longsword and a non-magical longsword, you can use the ritual to let them be used by both twins as +2 magic longswords. If they are both weilded/worn by the same person, or two people that are not a pair of Dvati twins, they provide no magical bonuses, properties, or powers. If one of the twinned magic items is destroyed in some way (smashed or converted into residium) the other item is destroyed as well.
This way a Dvati doesn't need to buy two of every magic item, but still can choose to equip different items to each twin to have unique advantages.

And now my sanity is running low. I would be extremely grateful any suggestions or mentions of rules that will cause problems with what I have described. I should possibly wait to reread this a few times before submitting it, but for several of these sentences I have been working for a while on without making progress on a specific phrasing that I really like (even if probably my last run through just added more errors into the writing), and that if I don't send it now, this will not be posted within the month (if ever) I know that the sentences are probably making less and less sense now, and I will stop before I continue to add to any more confusion.

[Benchak the Nightstalker]

Blazej wrote:

I decided to throw a race I've been trying to convert to 4th as well (in part to keep this thread going as a way to keep race conversions coming). Not so much as my infinite love for it, but I have been somewhat enjoying trying to solve the problems that come with converting this particular race.

This is the Dvati, a race that most recently showed up in Dragon Compendium. One character, two bodies, one mind. You control two twins that run around independently, capable of performing actions individually.

I think that this is one of the most complicated races (at least, by length of the rules text) to exist in 3.5, so I wanted to make an attempt to convert it because of that. Right now I'm not really sure how much sense much of this will make as this was mostly written later at night when I should have likely been sleeping. But I find it hard to stop thinking about this without actually making progress on it and finishing it. I will likely come back tommorrow and edit large chucks of it for spelling, but I seem to prefer that to waiting. I would rather see if anyone has a better idea than spend hours fumbling for the words without rambling (like this probably is).

I wrote:

Dvati

Racial Traits
Ability Scores: +2 Wisdom, +2 Charisma The dvati had no ability score adjustments so I chose these based on them being exceptional bards (Charisma), as well as considering the increased mental power of two perspectives (Wisdom). I'm not sure about Wisdom as much, that might be handled by the skill bonuses.
Size: Medium
Speed: 6 squares
Vision: Low-light

Languages: Common, Dvati I'm not sure if this should be adjusted or not because almost every game is not going to feature the Dvati language at any point. It might be good to add a third language, but I'm not sure yet.
Skill Bonuses: +2 Insight, +2 Perception [ooc]These seemed most natural for the race that can see from multiple perspectives...

How attached to separating their hit points are you?

I'd worry that, by having two guys at half hitpoints, they're probably going to drop pretty easily. Plus, once one twin goes down (the equivalent of being bloodied for most characters), the other basically loses access to their main racial feature and racial power, and so far 4e doesn't seem to like that kind of effect (if anything, characters get more dangerous when bloodied)

Have you considered having them share the same hp pool? You'd still have the issue of multiple target attacks doubling down on them, and you wouldn't get the whole one twin dies, the other wastes away thing going on (which some people seem to like), but it would certainly solve the frailty issue, as well as how healing effects work on them.

I do like the Wis/Cha combo though, that's something we haven't seen yet. Overall, looks like it could be fun.

[Blazej]

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

How attached to separating their hit points are you?

I'd worry that, by having two guys at half hitpoints, they're probably going to drop pretty easily. Plus, once one twin goes down (the equivalent of being bloodied for most characters), the other basically loses access to their main racial feature and racial power, and so far 4e doesn't seem to like that kind of effect (if anything, characters get more dangerous when bloodied)

Have you considered having them share the same hp pool? You'd still have the issue of multiple target attacks doubling down on them, and you wouldn't get the whole one twin dies, the other wastes away thing going on (which some people seem to like), but it would certainly solve the frailty issue, as well as how healing effects work on them.

I'm most attached to the separate hit points concept, because it allowed for the case that one could fall and the other survive. Linking hit points, without adding anything else, means that when one goes unconscious, the other goes down as well. Now it should be said that hit points don't represent only physical damage and that it is within one's imagination that seeing one's twin go down could be dishearting enough to lose one's resolve and fall themselves, but I find it happening every time not preferable.

However, sharing the hp pool would solve several issues that you have noted. It would probably for the best, but I'm stubborn to giving up this bit completely in one jump.

How about these changes...

Block wrote:

* They share an hp pool, remove talk about split hp and shared healing note.

** When hp drops to or below bloodied value, both are bloodied.
** When hp drops to zero or below, both become unconscious and begin to die.
** When hp drops to negative bloodied value or less, the dvati twins die.
** Make and track death saving throws separately for each character. If an unconscious twin is damaged and the other is alive, you can either take the damage, or ignore the damage and add one failed death saving throw to that character instead.

* Change "Echo attack: You gain echo attack as an encounter power." to "Greatest of Bonds: Once per encounter, you can use either the echo attack or one shall live power."

** Encounter power: One Shall Live: Immediate Reaction . Trigger: Hit points are reduced to 0 or below. Effect: You can spend a healing surge, but one twin hit by triggering attack or effect remains unconscious and dieing until you receive healing.

How does this look? Better, worse, or no change?

Benchak the Nightstalker wrote:

I do like the Wis/Cha combo though, that's something we haven't seen yet. Overall, looks like it could be fun.

Thanks.