For the life of me can someone tell me where to find info on whether or not devils need to rest (I know they don't need to sleep). Can they travel indefinitely without fatigue?. I have a player whose Chelaxian sorcerer wishes to send off his imp familiar hundreds of miles ahead of retreating giants, but I told him that his little imp does require rest. He claims that his familiar could travel 24 hours straight because he doesn't need sleep. I think that with a Con score devils still suffer from fatigue.
Also, while on the topic. Under the empathic link section of the SRD it states that a sorcerer can teleport to an area seen by his familiar just as if they'd seen it first hand. My understanding of this would assumenthat this ability is still restricted to the 1 mile range of empathic link. My player further thinks that he could teleport to any area the familiar has seen before even in his past.
Thoughts?
For the life of me can someone tell me where to find info on whether or not devils need to rest (I know they don't need to sleep). Can they travel indefinitely without fatigue?.
Outsiders aren't children of Mother Nature. They're ideals made flesh. They're literally goodness and evil and chaos and nature incarnate. They're not subject to nature's laws. They're not subject to the creeping decay that gets all of nature's children sooner or later. They don't have to eat. They don't have to drink. And they don't have to rest up to replenish their power or process the day's events.
I have a player whose Chelaxian sorcerer wishes to send off his imp familiar hundreds of miles ahead of retreating giants, but I told him that his little imp does require rest.
I'd say the little bugger can keep going forever, at least as long as he doesn't do anything strenous.
Also, while on the topic. Under the empathic link section of the SRD it states that a sorcerer can teleport to an area seen by his familiar just as if they'd seen it first hand. My understanding of this would assumenthat this ability is still restricted to the 1 mile range of empathic link. My player further thinks that he could teleport to any area the familiar has seen before even in his past.
I think the empathic link can transmit all kinds of impressions, including memories from the past.
I agree; no need to sleep is not the same as being immune to fatigue.
Strictly speaking, Damage reduction only nullifies physical strikes; falls and the like, but no where does it say it affects fatigue. Even though they're outsiders and don't require food or sleep, nowhere does it say that they don't require rest. Elves still need 8 hours of rest to replenish fatigue, natural healing, and spells even though 4 hours is sufficient.
In fact, I can't locate any rules that state devils (baatezu) don't require rest, it seems it's just an assumption.
In the Book of Fiends, it states that thhey need to breathe. That's as close as I came to uncover the facts.
Two answers for you here, take them as you will:
Going strictly by the details in Faces of Evil: The Fiends, as far as devils go (Planescape's Baatezu), lesser devils need some sleep but given the demands of their superiors they catch it literally when they're capable of it, typically an hour or so a day for most of the rank and file (at most one hour of sleep for every 9 hours of real activity). Higher up the chain, they can will themselves on for months at a time without sleep, but eventually it catches up to them and they require a period of greater rest. Greater devils can keep themselves awake for years, decades, or centuries, but when they finally do succumb to the need to rest, it takes a toll, and they might find themselves slipping into an unconscious torpor. Unique or noble devils probably need as much sleep as do actual gods, which is to say, they don't require it, though they might endulge in it if they so desire.
That's the classic Planescape answer. Golarion's devils probably don't fall too far from the tree on that, but ultimately the answer for that is going to come from Wesley since he's writing the book on devils (literally). I haven't had any influence on that aspect of their nature, so I'm speculating here just for how I'd handle it.
That said, as far as I would handle this question for Golarion's fiends... devils are beings of obedience, and if a superior orders them to trudge on (including a summoner), they'll will themselves forward and not require any sort of rest, even to the point of crippling themselves if need be, for fear of failure and a drive to gain rank and influence through that obedience. By any standard though, their endurance outstrips that of an ordinary mortal I would expect.
Thanks for all the imput guys, but it still leaves the situation kind of grey. Our sorcerer wants to send his imp familiar far ahead of retreating stone giants befrore they reach their lair and then using his empathic link teleport there. My problem with this is that the paragraph in the familiar section where the SRD mentions teleport is under the empathic link ability, inclining me to believe that he can only receive info on instant sites within 1 mile that his familiar has physically seen.
I'm still inclined to believe that empathic link works strictly within the bounds of 1 mile and that sorcerers can only teleport to areas where the familiar has been to within 1 mile of his location.
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I would say that he can teleport to places the familiar has been to as if he had been there himself, whether or not the familiar was within that 1 mile radius at the time of it being there.
However, I would say that the familiar must be in that 1 mile radius at the time of the casting of the teleport spell. So in this instance, I would say it is a sound tactic if the Imp could make it where he wants to go and back before the giants get there, but the imp can't just head to the destination and the wizard somehow know it without the empathic link being established again.
-Tarlane
Because the teleport reference falls under the empathic link section of familiar abilities and not its own "teleport sense" section, I'm inclined to believe the developer's intentions were to allow "short teleports" in dungeon scenarios.
Thanks for all the imput guys, but it still leaves the situation kind of grey. Our sorcerer wants to send his imp familiar far ahead of retreating stone giants befrore they reach their lair and then using his empathic link teleport there. My problem with this is that the paragraph in the familiar section where the SRD mentions teleport is under the empathic link ability, inclining me to believe that he can only receive info on instant sites within 1 mile that his familiar has physically seen.
I'm still inclined to believe that empathic link works strictly within the bounds of 1 mile and that sorcerers can only teleport to areas where the familiar has been to within 1 mile of his location.
Without further sources (such as Todd mentioned), I'd agree that Devils do not need to sleep. KaeYoss said they could keep going as long as they didn't do anything strenuous. I agree, but a Forced March (over 8 hours travel in a 24 hour period) *is* strenuous, and inflicts non-lethal damage. So in general I would say that a Devil would have to rest or would suffer that damage.
That said, an Imp has Fast Healing 2, and could simply stop for a minute every hour or so to heal the damage. In 3.5 I would keep doubling the fatigue damage each hour (so the Imp may collapse every hour or so after a while), but he could keep going. Damage per hour after 24 hours would be 32768 points or about 1 per round, so he'd have to rest 1 out of every 3 rounds.
However, Pathfinder has changed Forced March fatigue to 1d6 points each hour after 8 that a Con check (DC 10 + 2/extra hour), not increasing. The imp would start auto-failing those rapidly, but 1d6 nonlethal goes away in 3 rounds, and removing those points removes the fatigue condition.
Honestly - make a quick compromise. Give him 20 hours per day for the Imp, that'll probably be enough for his purpose.
As to that purpose - I'd say no problem for the Imp to go there, then return, and the Wizard to teleport to the location. However it could be probably "Viewed once" or "Seen Casually" instead of "Studied Carefully", depending on how long it had been. This is an intelligent Imp, it should have no trouble relaying images, etc., for teleporting.
Here is a little less grey for you lol:
TraitsAn outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
* Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
* Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
* Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.
Going over the SRD real quick the only types that wouldn't have to worry about fatigue would be the undead and constructs (immune to effects of fort saves unless they apply to items as well). For some reason I wanted to say elemental too but it wasn't in the SRD and I must have been thinking about some specific ones that had an exception.
Anyways by SRD I would have to rule that they are not immune to fatigue. The bad news is by RAW the player is correct. If the imp were to stop moving for 1 round every hour (1.6 minutes the first day, 2.4 minutes the days following) technically you never hit the hour to become exhausted and have to make the save, it would reset. Now obviously you'll have a problem with that as you are trying to find a way to tell the player "no" to this and I kinda agree it is out of line with the spirit of the rule.
The worse news is that even if you say no to that ...
Forced March: In a day of normal walking, a character
walks for 8 hours. The rest of the daylight time is spent
making and breaking camp, resting, and eating.
A character can walk for more than 8 hours in a day by
making a forced march. For each hour of marching beyond
8 hours, a Constitution check (DC 10, +2 per extra
hour) is required. If the check fails, the character takes
1d6 points of nonlethal damage. A character who takes any
nonlethal damage from a forced march becomes fatigued.
Eliminating the nonlethal damage also eliminates the fatigue.
It’s possible for a character to march into unconsciousness
by pushing himself too hard.
What does that mean? The little bugger starts flying for the city, nine hours later it fails its save, becomes fatigued and takes 6 points (the maximum) nonlethal damage. Fatigue doesn't slow you down, you just can't charge or run and take -2 to dex and str (not con). Next round he heals 2 nonlethal while flying (overland movement is the same as walking, not hustling) and keeping the penalties. Second round he heals 2 more points and keeps the penalties. Third round he heals the last of the damage loses the penalties and continues on for the rest of the trip. This means the imp can cover 120 miles in a 24 hour period flying non stop (50' fly would be 40 miles overland in 8 hours time, multiply by 3 for 24 hours).
I think Majumba's math with the doubling of the damage came from the "hustle" movement mode not the overland movement. If the imp were to hustle, there is no save it is just pure damage that doubles every hour in PFRPG, a core imp with 13 hp would be able to hustle 5 hours (taking 8 nonlethal damage at the end of the 5 hours) and have to drop to the slower overland movement. If it attempted to go 6 hours it would take 16 nonlethal and go unconscious for 2 rounds (which would probably be bad, falling, hostile environs, etc). With that into account it could cover 145 miles (50 hustle @ 5 hours + 95 overland @ 19 hours) the first 24 hour period.
Regardless of the math the PC is right, non stop flight is possible for the imp, it is just a matter of how fast it gets there. It isn't the outsider type doing it though, it is the fast healing that keeps the imp up and makes it a little traveling machine. "Fluff" wise you can give it any spin you like which is the cool part, as long as the end mechanics are the same, any of the reasonings given by the posters above are valid.
As for the teleportation to where the imp has seen.. This is a more grey than the rules above. A reading of the ability states specifically that it doesn't allow for images or thoughts, just general emotions so that would imply that you couldn't use it this way. The only thing that saves it is the last line in the ability that says "As a result, the master has the same connection to an item or place that his familiar does." So, as long as the imp was within range to give that "information" to the caster doing so is well within the rules for familiarity I guess. In this situation, the imp would have to get to the city and then fly back to within 1 mile of the caster to transfer the images to his master. If the imp flew in and then back out of town immediately “Seen casually” is probably appropriate. If he had to go to the mayor's house (or someplace) and wait to explain and talk to people “Studied carefully” (roughly an hour there) wouldn't be out of the question. Basically just add an hour on the trip back to where the PC's are. This is assuming the imp has never been to the place prior to the point the PC wants to go, if it had been there before it could have easily transfered the location before it left (in which case why send the imp back when you can teleport there? - Thus the assumption).
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For the life of me can someone tell me where to find info on whether or not devils need to rest (I know they don't need to sleep). Can they travel indefinitely without fatigue?.Outsiders aren't children of Mother Nature. They're ideals made flesh. They're literally goodness and evil and chaos and nature incarnate. They're not subject to nature's laws. They're not subject to the creeping decay that gets all of nature's children sooner or later. They don't have to eat. They don't have to drink. And they don't have to rest up to replenish their power or process the day's events.
Yes, but since they are summoned, you could rule that while outside of their home plane, they are subjected to the harshness of the mortal world, since this is a summoned body, and not their real one.
That would give an in-game reason as to why outsiders do not visit more often.
By the same stretch, you could rule that outsiders AGE when they visit the Prime.
Though this is really a DM's call as to the world.
Here's my take with regards to devils and biological "needs"--they're more like wants. You can starve a devil and it will get ravenously hungry, insane with hunger even, but will it die of starvation ever? No. The powerful drives and desires of mortality are a curse that motivates them--partly to do with the nature of sin and the sating of urges, I'd say.
You can't very well have devils embodying sloth without them wanting to relax, right? Obviously they've got to have desires in order to be creatures obsessed with sating them.
So the imp, sure you can force march it forever--but then it's going to have the kind of pure hate for its master that makes it likely to betray and murder him. If this devil is a familiar, then you're going to have to figure out how this works. Can a master who tortures his familiar keep him? Can a master even torture his familiar without the extremity of it passing to him empathically through the link? Can an abused familiar attempt to break the bond? Just because a familiar CAN empathically link with its master, does that mean it's forced to obey?
For example...could a seriously angry imp suddenly change the image in his head from the treasure trove he once guarded in a chamber on the elemental plane of earth, and say a moment before his master completes the teleportation spell suddenly think "Carceri!"
Then again, imps tend to be weak willed creatures. Call it a personality fault. Who's to say when you send your imp on a multi-week trek across the world to run an errand for you that he won't go a mile or two out, and as soon as the empathic bond is severed, take a nice break and forget all about you. Maybe run off to Vegas and have himself a good time. Seriously...imp!
So the upshot--don't torture a creature you need to be able to trust, or he'll throw you in the boo box as soon as he gets a chance. Then again, if you need to trust the creature, best to pick something that isn't made out of pure evil. Just sayin'.
It's an imp. It knows you're more powerful, and by the ideology that is the core of its very nature, it is your right to mistreat your inferiors.
Yes, but since they are summoned, you could rule that while outside of their home plane, they are subjected to the harshness of the mortal world, since this is a summoned body, and not their real one.
That would mean that they could starve, too, or get sick or poisoned. That clearly isn't so.
That would give an in-game reason as to why outsiders do not visit more often.
I think the reasons for that are far different. Given the chance to torment mortals, any outsider would gladly let himself be summoned (note that when they're called, they cross the border bodily and bring along their own body) and endure fatigue and hunger twice a minute at least.
It's probably more to do with universal rules, and the fear to lose status, power, territory, while you're out. Or just that you only go when you're ordered.
And there can always be a limit on how often, or under what circumstances you're allowed to cross over.
By the same stretch, you could rule that outsiders AGE when they visit the Prime.
But that would only affect that borrowed body.
I would say that he can teleport to places the familiar has been to as if he had been there himself, whether or not the familiar was within that 1 mile radius at the time of it being there.
However, I would say that the familiar must be in that 1 mile radius at the time of the casting of the teleport spell. So in this instance, I would say it is a sound tactic if the Imp could make it where he wants to go and back before the giants get there, but the imp can't just head to the destination and the wizard somehow know it without the empathic link being established again.
-Tarlane
This!! This is what I would go with.!
This!! This is what I would go with.!I would say that he can teleport to places the familiar has been to as if he had been there himself, whether or not the familiar was within that 1 mile radius at the time of it being there.
However, I would say that the familiar must be in that 1 mile radius at the time of the casting of the teleport spell. So in this instance, I would say it is a sound tactic if the Imp could make it where he wants to go and back before the giants get there, but the imp can't just head to the destination and the wizard somehow know it without the empathic link being established again.
-Tarlane
Same here.
Thanks again everyone!