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Please cancel my subscriptions to:
Pathfinder Modules
Pathfinder Adventure Path
Pathfinder Companion
Pathfinder Chronicles
Planet Stories
I can't support a company that benefits from the use of OGC and the OGL but obscures and restricts almost all elements of their own products.
- Mark Gedak
Former Paizo Supporter
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Please cancel my subscriptions to:
Pathfinder Modules
Pathfinder Adventure Path
Pathfinder Companion
Pathfinder Chronicles
Planet StoriesI can't support a company that benefits from the use of OGC and the OGL but obscures and restricts almost all elements of their own products.
- Mark Gedak
Former Paizo Supporter
Huh ?
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Almost sounds like he is upset that Paizo developed stuff based on the WOC open license but is not going to release an OGL from its own RPG,
The beta is all OGC if I remember right.
But most other products declare:
Names, creatures, locations, concepts, plot, dialogue and practically every other elements as Product Identity.
So beyond the odd Fort +2 or hp 18, very little is open game content.
Even though Paizo regular uses OGC from Necromancer Games and OGC from Green Ronin, instead of following those companies' lead on OGC declaration they opt for a confusing, restrictive option that is just as bad or worse than Malhavoc's declarations.
I can understand declaring product identity on Glorian items (particularly their names), but restricting the names of monsters is a dickish thing to do.
And declaring that all concepts in a product are Product Identity is absolutely ridiculous.
This heavy handed approach is not something I would expect from a company like Paizo and this sort of declaration is really insulting now that the OGL has been out so long.
An open game license declaration like this will kill the use of the actual license and will require 3PP to make side contracts, severely limiting what 3PP can do and limiting what fans can legally do on homebrew sites.
CEO
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Almost sounds like he is upset that Paizo developed stuff based on the WOC open license but is not going to release an OGL from its own RPG,The beta is all OGC if I remember right.
But most other products declare:
Names, creatures, locations, concepts, plot, dialogue and practically every other elements as Product Identity.
So beyond the odd Fort +2 or hp 18, very little is open game content.
Even though Paizo regular uses OGC from Necromancer Games and OGC from Green Ronin, instead of following those companies' lead on OGC declaration they opt for a confusing, restrictive option that is just as bad or worse than Malhavoc's declarations.
I can understand declaring product identity on Glorian items (particularly their names), but restricting the names of monsters is a dickish thing to do.
And declaring that all concepts in a product are Product Identity is absolutely ridiculous.
This heavy handed approach is not something I would expect from a company like Paizo and this sort of declaration is really insulting now that the OGL has been out so long.
An open game license declaration like this will kill the use of the actual license and will require 3PP to make side contracts, severely limiting what 3PP can do and limiting what fans can legally do on homebrew sites.
Mark:
We are just about to release a very open license for publishers to use the Pathfinder RPG. We've even run the license by many of the bigger guys, including Ryan Dancey, to get their feedback. I think you will be very pleased with it as well as with our community license which will allow the fans to use Golarion, some of our artwork, and lots of other stuff for their own uses. Vic is putting the final touches on the licenses and then we will be releasing them. It is our goal to be very open with our game content and if we haven't been, it hasn't been intentional. We do want to protect Golarion, but beyond that, we want it to be open.
I will bring this up with Vic and Erik today and see if we can get to the bottom of this. I hope you end up reconsidering withholding your support for us, since I feel that we are on the same page, and I think you will be happy with the open license we have drafted.
-Lisa
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Excusez-moi, but my ugly lawyer head rears up and sees the following in legal blurb of PF AP modules:
"The following items are hereby identifed as Product Identity, as defned in the Open Game License version 1.0a, Section 1(e), and are not Open Content: All trademarks, registered trademarks, proper
names (characters, deities, artifacts, places, etc.), dialogue, plots, storylines, language, incidents, locations, characters, artwork, and trade dress."
As far as I interpret that, "Valeros" is a proper name and is not OGC but "Goblin Snake" or "Taiga giant" is not. If I read this right, the monsters work exactly as in GR/Necro products - the name, statblock and abilities are OGC, the ecology/fluff section is not. And see no "concepts" clause here either, though the "incidents" is somewhat vague.
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We do want to protect Golarion, but beyond that, we want it to be open.
I will bring...
Hi Lisa,
I run the Grand OGL Wiki. I've been encouraged by Erik on forums to post the open game content from Paizo products. I did so from the Pathfinder 1 - Burnt Offerings (http://grandwiki.wikidot.com/pf1).
The declaration on this book said: all game mechanics.
And I think I'm in compliance with the spirit of that declartion, if I've posted something incorrectly I will remove it immediately.
Come book 2 the declaration changed, and changed dramatically.
If I could get clarification on what the gooblygook declaration means, I would know how to move forward.
I want to continue to support Paizo, but have always stopped buying from companies that crippled and obsfucate (I'm sure I spelled that wrong), their declarations.
I'm willing to hold my cancellation while this is resolved or examined.
If you want to discuss this off thread I can be reached at gedakm@gmail.com.
- Mark Gedak
Grand OGL Wiki
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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Hey, Mark! I don't know how many volumes of Pathfinder you actually have, but the intention is and has always been to provide 100% of the rules content as open. When we shifted to a more elaborate declaration of product identity with #2, a couple of lame mistakes slipped into the legal language and weren't caught until later.
I have no idea, for example, how or why "creatures" snuck onto the PI list in #2, but it was an obvious mistake that we rectified in the very next issue. "Concepts" is perhaps even more egregious, but it escaped my notice until Pathfinder #10. It has not appeared since, and should never have been in there in the first place.
All of the other stuff declared as PI is intended to prevent someone else from simply reprinting Pathfinder as their own product. ALL OF THE RULES in ALL OF OUR PRODUCTS are meant to be 100% open.
Proper Nouns are people's names. So you can't put Karzoug, Rulelord of Xin-Shalast in another product, but you can use monsters, etc. If the name is not a proper noun, you can use it.
We published Dragon & Dungeon for the first five years of our existence and never had to develop a great deal of experience with the Open Game License. It's taken us a while to perfect out PI statement for maximum clarity.
The most recent Pathfinder within arm's reach is #13, and the OGL declaration there is the one that we're currently going with, and the one that as far as I'm concerned applies to all of our products:
Product Identity: The following terms are hereby identified as Product Identity, as defined in the Open Game License version 1.0a, Section 1(e), and are not Open Content: All trademarks, registered trademarks, proper names (characters, deities, places, etc.), dialogue, plots, storylines, language, incidents, locations, characters, artwork, and trade dress.
Open Content: Except for material designated as Product Identity (see above), the contents of this Paizo Publishing game product are Open Game Content, as defined in the Open Gaming License version 1.0a, Section 1(d). No portion of this work other than the material designated as Open Game Content may be reproduced in any form without written permission. To learn more about the Open Game License and the d20 System License, please visit wizards.com/d20.
Mark, please consider this post "written permission" to treat all previous volumes of Pathfinder as if the above declaration were in effect. The somewhat clumsy early PI statement was in no way meant to close off anything uncovered by the current version of our PI text.
If you have any additional questions about what is Open and what is PI, please post them on our message boards and I will be happy to help you figure it out. Generally, unless it is a plot element or specific element of our game world (such as a specific NPC, nation, or god), you're dealing with Open material.
Hope that clears things up, but I'll keep an eye on this thread to address any additional questions.
Sincerely,
Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC
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All of the other stuff declared as PI is intended to prevent someone else from simply reprinting Pathfinder as their own product. ALL OF THE RULES in ALL OF OUR PRODUCTS are meant to be 100% open.
Proper Nouns are people's names. So you can't put Karzoug, Rulelord of Xin-Shalast in another product, but you can use monsters, etc. If the name is not a proper noun, you can use it.
We published Dragon & Dungeon for the first five years of our existence and never had to develop a great deal of experience with the Open Game License. It's taken us a while to perfect out PI statement for maximum clarity.
The most recent Pathfinder within arm's reach is #13, and the OGL declaration there is the one that we're currently going with, and the one that as far as I'm concerned applies to all of our products:
Product Identity: The following terms are hereby identified as Product Identity, as defined in the Open Game License version 1.0a, Section 1(e), and are not Open Content: All trademarks, registered trademarks, proper names (characters, deities, places, etc.), dialogue, plots, storylines, language, incidents, locations, characters, artwork, and trade dress.
Open Content: Except for material designated as Product Identity (see above), the contents of this Paizo Publishing game product are Open Game Content, as defined in the Open Gaming License version 1.0a,...
Thanks for clarifying that Erik. I've retained a copy of this post for my records. Feel free to delete this thread if you wish, if I could have handled it off board I would have.
Also, disregard my cancellation request, I hate missing pieces of a set and have been a subscriber of all the subscriptions since the beginning.
When I pulled content from the PF1 that declaration (the current one wasn't in effect), would you like me to take out the proper character names from my site (it would only take a moment), as well as the name Sandpoint (though I already removed the Sandpoint from Sandpoint devil and all references to Lamusutra(spelled wrong I'm sure)).
- Mark Gedak
Pathfinder Subscriber
Grand OGL Wiki
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Chief Technical Officer
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...would you like me to take out the proper character names from my site (it would only take a moment), as well as the name Sandpoint (though I already removed the Sandpoint from Sandpoint devil and all references...
Mark,
A cursory glance at the site suggests that your goal is just to track the open content only. If that's indeed the case, please make those adjustments.
However, if you're interested in using some of the non-open content, it's ok with me if you wait until we release our Community Use Policy before you go to any effort. It will explain the terms under which additional material will be available for use by specific parties. We expect to publish it later this month.
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If that's indeed the case, please make those adjustments.
Our goal is to only hold OGC that publishers have given permission for or other content that was donated. Although Sandpoint, and the NPC's names were defined as PI in Pathfinder - Burnt Offerings, I sort of assumed they were meant to be off-limits.
I'll make the appropriate adjustments to the wiki. That's for taking a look.
- Mark Gedak
Grand OGL Wiki
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Product Identity: The following terms are hereby identified as Product Identity, as defined in the Open Game License version 1.0a, Section 1(e), and are not Open Content: All trademarks, registered trademarks, proper names (characters, deities, places, etc.), dialogue, plots, storylines, language, incidents, locations, characters, artwork, and trade dress.
Open Content: Except for material designated as Product Identity (see above), the contents of this Paizo Publishing game product are Open Game Content, as defined in the Open Gaming License version 1.0a,...
Hi Erik,
Okay, using this revised declaration. I think this is okay post for the Boggards from "The Skinsaw Murders" does it go to far. I pulled out all sites and all god names.
+ Boggard
//Although sitting on its haunches, this gray-green humanoid is still almost four feet tall. Two large, bulbous eyes sit on either side of its toad-like head, above a wide maw that holds a pair of sharp ridges instead of teeth. Countless tough warts cover its rubbery skin all the way down to its webbed hands and feet. The creature wears simple armor constructed from reptilian hide and turtle shells, and wields an immense spiked club.//
**Boggard CR 2**
Usually CE Medium humanoid (boggard)
Init –1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision; Listen +0, Spot +7
**Defense**
AC 14, touch 9, flat-footed 14
(+2 armor, –1 Dex, +3 natural)
hp 22 (3d8+9)
Fort +3, Ref +2, Will+1
**Offense**
Spd 20 ft., swim 30 ft.
Melee morningstar +5 (1d8+2) or tongue +1 touch (sticky tongue)
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with tongue)
Special Attacks sticky tongue, terrifying croak
**Tactics**
During Combat A lone boggard opens combat with its croak before closing into melee. When attacking as part of a group, two boggards use their croaks, while the rest use their tongues to immobilize opponents. From there, they pummel opponents into submission.
Morale Boggards tend to flee a fight when reduced to 5 hit points or less.
**Statistics**
Str 15, Dex 9, Con 14, Int 8, Wis 11, Cha 10
Base Atk +2; Grp +4
Feats Toughness, Weapon Focus (morningstar)
Skills Hide –1 (+7 in swamps), Jump +15, Spot +7, Swim +10
Languages Boggard
SQ hold breath, swamp stride
**Ecology**
Environment temperate marshes
Organization solitary, pair (2), or gang (3–12)
Treasure standard
Alignment usually chaotic evil
Advancement by character class; Favored Class barbarian
Level Adjustment +2
**Special Abilities**
Hold Breath(Ex) A boggard can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to four times its Constitution score before it risks drowning.
Sticky Tongue (Ex) A creature hit by a boggard’s tongue attack cannot move more than 10 feet away from the boggard and takes a –2 penalty to AC while the tongue is attached (this penalty does not stack if multiple tongues are attached). The tongue can be removed by making an opposed Strength check as a standard action or by dealing 2 points of slashing damage. The boggard cannot move more than 10 feet away from the target while its tongue is attached, but a boggard can release its tongue as a free action. While attached, neither the boggard nor its target are considered grappled. A boggard’s tongue attack is always considered a secondary natural attack.
Swamp Stride (Ex) A boggard can move through any sort of natural difficult terrain at its normal speed while within a swamp. Magically altered terrain affects a boggard normally.
Terrifying Croak (Su) Once per hour, a boggard can, as a standard action, emit a loud and horrifying croak. Any non-boggard creature within 30 feet of the boggard must make a DC 13 Will save or become shaken for 1d4 rounds. Creatures that succeed at this save cannot be affected again by the same boggard’s croak for 24 hours. Creatures that are already shaken become frightened for 1d4 rounds instead. The save DC is Charisma-based and includes a +2 racial bonus.
Skills Boggards have a +16 racial bonus on Jump checks, a +4 racial bonus on Spot checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks made in swamps.
Often referred to as frogmen, boggards are human-sized creatures with a strong resemblance to their lesser amphibious cousins with their bulging eyes, wide mouths, and long sticky tongues. Any such comparison ends with physical characteristics, though, as boggards are cruel and capricious, caring little for other swamp-dwellers and even less for those who walk on the firm ground beyond their soggy realms.
++ Habitat & Society
Boggards live almost exclusively in temperate swampy environments, but the occasional clan has been spotted in tropical rainforests, living on the banks of great rivers. Boggard villages are primitive affairs, with a number of crude mud mounds dotting a swampy clearing. Hut interiors are a mix of muddy ground and stagnant pools. Individual boggards rarely claim one such mound as a home and tend to move from mound to mound as space allows. In the center of a boggard settlement is the priestking’s
mound. This impressive dome contains multiple chambers for the priest-king’s guards, consorts, and followers.
Boggard society is a relatively fluid one, where one’s status is dictated almost entirely by skill and accomplishments. Aside from such measures, size and weight also play an important role in finding a mate. Boggard clans are ruled over by a priest-king, who is a bit larger and stronger than the
rest. Fed a rare blue dragonfly from birth, these priest-kings learn to speak to the corpulent goddess of the boggards. As they age and grow in power, these priest-kings continue to swell and grow, becoming more and more like gigantic frogs and less like humanoids.
Clerics have access to two of the following domains: Chaos, Death, Evil, Scalykind, or Water. There goddess is chaotic evil and her favored weapon is the whip.
++ Ec ology
Boggards begin life as tadpoles, birthed from the fetid pools of their great brood mothers. It is here that they learn their first lessons in survival as they avoid the dangers of the swamp and compete with their siblings for food. After six months in this state, during which they grow to a length of three feet, adolescent boggards sprout legs and arms, a process that takes another three months. At the end of this time, the young boggards emerge from swamp pools and are pressed into gangs with young hunters who teach them all the necessary skills. After two years of training, young boggards must hunt and kill a sentient humanoid before becoming a full member of the clan. Boggards who do not complete this task within a month are cast out from the clan and rarely survive.
A boggard’s diet consists of a mix of swamp plants, fish, smaller amphibians, and dragonwasps they breed specifically as food. These large insects are roughly two feet in length and are usually birthed from the corpses of dead humanoids or larger animals. The average boggard stands nearly five feet tall, but has a crouching posture and appears much shorter. Most weigh about 200 pounds. Boggards can live up to 50 years old, but they often fall prey to swamp predators, fellow clansmen, or enemy humanoids well before this time. Most boggards have gray, green, or black skin, but brighter colors such as red or orange are not unheard of. As a boggard ages, its warts grow in size and thickness, and its color tends to fade. Especially venerable boggards are often bone-white and covered with knobby protrusions.
++ Treasure
Boggards value objects that enhance their prowess in battle above all other things. Weapons and armor tend to be the most common treasure. They also value shiny metals that stand out in the gloom of the swamp. Such treasures are always carefully cleaned and maintained. Any other treasure in a boggard clan is kept by the priest-king at the bottom of a murky pond somewhere in his vast swamp mound.
++ Boggard Priest-kings
Rulers of entire clans of boggards, the appetites of the priest-kings know no bounds—be it for food, mates, treasure, or conquest. These corpulent monsters have feasted on the blue dragonflies of Gogunta and learned to hear her terrible croaks.
The following adjustments to a standard boggard represent a young priest-king. More aged varieties with even greater powers certainly exist.
—+2 natural armor.
—+4 Strength, +4 Constitution, +6 Wisdom.
—Swamp Magic (Sp) While in the confines of a swamp or marsh, a boggard priest-king can call on each of the following powers once per day as a spell-like ability: fog cloud, jump, and summon swarm. These spells are cast as a cleric of a level equal to the priest-king’s total Hit Dice.