4e Druids?

[David Fryer]

I noticed that they have the play test stuff for druids at at WoTC right now. Has anyone looked over it yet? Is it any good? Is it worth getting a DDI subscription to get access to it?

[Matthew Koelbl]

David Fryer wrote:

I noticed that they have the play test stuff for druids at at WoTC right now. Has anyone looked over it yet? Is it any good? Is it worth getting a DDI subscription to get access to it?

I am very impressed with how they put the druid together; I wouldn't recommend getting a subscription for it alone (it is only a preview of the class, and thus only has powers for levels 1-3.) Now, there is enough other cool stuff in DDI that it might be the bit that tips you over the edge - and there might be more Druid info released tomorrow, since apparently the Ampersand column will be about it. If that makes a big difference, I'll make sure to mention it here.

Anyway, here is the general overview of the class (and my thoughts on it):

-The Druid is a controller. Slightly sturdier than the wizard, but also without the range of the wizard (and I suspect the wizard will also retain larger area effects in general.)
*From what I can see, they did a decent job of making it distinct from the wizard, without either being better than the other. We won't be able to fully know for sure until the full class is released, though. Wizards seem likely to be better blasters and debuffers, druids better at movement control and terrain manipulation.*

-No animal companion. No summoning. Some small amount of healing.
*I'm cool with this. Animal Companion always was what tipped the druid into being a bit too much. I suspect some of these things - if not all of them - to end up the domain of the Shaman, the Primal Leader coming out at the same time.*

-Wild Shape is still in. Spellcasting is still in - generally potent nature spells, elemental damage, etc. They get Ritual Casting, and can use Animal Messenger once a day for free.
*This is what I was hoping for, and they delivered. They did a good job of encouraging you to play it as a hybrid, using the best of both aspects, but not requiring it - you can be a pure wild-shaper or pure caster if desired.*

-Stats: Wisdom is their primary stat. Secondary are Con and Dex; Con seeming the focus for the more caster/leader variant, with Dex more the focus for the more melee/striker variant.

-Wild Shape: Usable at will, letting you shift in and out of wild shape throughout a fight. You decide what the form of your wild shape will be, but it doesn't directly change your stats - it just gives you access to the 'beast form' powers. I'm expecting Paragon Paths, Feats, etc, to focus on specific forms and provide according benefits - but that is just hypothesis on my end. I'm also expecting specific utility powers to be around to give more form functionality - you will likely have a higher level power that lets you actually turn into a flying form, etc. (One of the level 2 Utility Powers lets you turn into a rat and do some scouting.)
*I like it. Being able to choose your own form is a nice touch, and being able to Wild Shape from level 1 really lets the class feel complete from the start. I would have liked to have seen some options for a bit more focus in the form chosen (similar to how they did animal companions for the ranger in Martial Power), but as I said, I expect some of that will be reflected in Paragon Paths, powers, feats, etc. Definitely a balanced ability, and still flavorful, so I'm happy with it.*

-Implements: They can use staffs or totems, which are likely to be a common primal implement. When they wild shape, all their equipment joins with them but still provides its benefits; however, they drop anything being held other than implements. While in wild shape, they apply the magic of their implements to their natural attacks.

-At Wills: 5 normal, and 3 beast form. They have a couple area effect powers, which they did a good job with - some of them have slightly more effect than a wizard's Scorching Burst, but in return do less damage (such as missing out on adding +wisdom to damage, in return for sliding the enemy 1 square.) Beast Form powers are usually attacks against Reflex (since they don't get proficiency bonuses); two of the at-wills can be used as basic attacks, and the third can be used when charging. None are simply damage - they all are faintly controller/leaderish in effect. (Slow, slide 1 square, etc.)
*Pretty impressed here. Some of the powers are a bit complicated for At-Wills... but that seems to be the price to make them distinct, which they definitely did.*

That sums up most of the general details. All in all, it looks very fun to play, and definitely very flavorful. It does look somewhat complex - like the Wizard, the Controller still seems perhaps the most challenging role, if not nearly as much so as in the past. It looks to be very tactically interesting to play, with the ability to be shifting in and out of wild shape, darting in and out of melee, locking some enemies down while making others more vulnerable - and so forth.

Definitely can't wait to see the full thing!

[David Fryer]

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

-Wild Shape: Usable at will, letting you shift in and out of wild shape throughout a fight. You decide what the form of your wild shape will be, but it doesn't directly change your stats - it just gives you access to the 'beast form' powers.

So if I understand correctly if I choose to wild shape into a t-rex I am no more powerful than if I wild shaped into a mouse? That seems a little nerfed to me.

[David Marks]

David Fryer wrote:

Matthew Koelbl wrote:

-Wild Shape: Usable at will, letting you shift in and out of wild shape throughout a fight. You decide what the form of your wild shape will be, but it doesn't directly change your stats - it just gives you access to the 'beast form' powers.

So if I understand correctly if I choose to wild shape into a t-rex I am no more powerful than if I wild shaped into a mouse? That seems a little nerfed to me.

The standard wildshape also doesn't change your size, so you'd be a tiny little t-rex. (Or, alternatively, a really huge freakin mouse) :)

[Stedd Grimwold]

Wildshape is essentially a minor action to change your appearance and give you access to most of your powers. In this respect it weakens druids with respect to wizards: I have to "waste" a minor action to get access to my powers.

The preview is short, and at first blush, the powers seem slightly more "powerful" than a wizards in terms of damage, but weaker in terms of AoE. So overall "balanced". But, to take a minor action to assume "beast form" (read: I look like a beast) in order to access those powers is a bit of a let-down.

To make matters worse, they include the helpful little description of a "primal beast" that's a mass of feathers, claws, beaks, fangs, etc. Basically an ephemeral beast that has no distinct shape.

In short: Druids are thematic wizards that have to waste a minor action each encounter.

[Stedd Grimwold]

Stedd Grimwold wrote:

Wildshape is essentially a minor action to change your appearance and give you access to most of your powers. In this respect it weakens druids with respect to wizards: I have to "waste" a minor action to get access to my powers.

The preview is short, and at first blush, the powers seem slightly more "powerful" than a wizards in terms of damage, but weaker in terms of AoE. So overall "balanced". But, to take a minor action to assume "beast form" (read: I look like a beast) in order to access those powers is a bit of a let-down.

To make matters worse, they include the helpful little description of a "primal beast" that's a mass of feathers, claws, beaks, fangs, etc. Basically an ephemeral beast that has no distinct shape.

Druids are thematic wizards that have to waste a minor action each encounter. Not being in beast form confers no advantage or trade-off so you'll stay in beast form.

Even if they include options through feats and PP's to make being in certain forms interesting, as a RAW core feature, Wildshape is a big waste of ink.

[Scott Betts]

Man, what?

First, you have a distinct set of powers you can use in each form (wild-shaped vs. normal) that do not overlap. Second, that same minor action allows you to shift a square, normally a move action anyway. So not only do you get the versatility of being able to switch between controller caster and melee striker, but switching itself provides an awesome tactical benefit: a shift as a minor action, something that you normally would have to be a kobold to have. You're the first person I've heard criticizing Wild Shape in any way. Most people seem to think it's one of the best constructed mechanics released so far.

Oh, and the primal mass of shadowy claws, teeth, etc. is just a suggestion. You can look like whatever creature you want.

[detritus]

Scott Betts wrote:

Man, what?

First, you have a distinct set of powers you can use in each form (wild-shaped vs. normal) that do not overlap. Second, that same minor action allows you to shift a square, normally a move action anyway. So not only do you get the versatility of being able to switch between controller caster and melee striker, but switching itself provides an awesome tactical benefit: a shift as a minor action, something that you normally would have to be a kobold to have. You're the first person I've heard criticizing Wild Shape in any way. Most people seem to think it's one of the best constructed mechanics released so far.

Oh, and the primal mass of shadowy claws, teeth, etc. is just a suggestion. You can look like whatever creature you want.

When he is saying shift, he is referring to shapeshift and not the movement type.

[Slizor]

detritus wrote:

Scott Betts wrote:

Man, what?

First, you have a distinct set of powers you can use in each form (wild-shaped vs. normal) that do not overlap. Second, that same minor action allows you to shift a square, normally a move action anyway. So not only do you get the versatility of being able to switch between controller caster and melee striker, but switching itself provides an awesome tactical benefit: a shift as a minor action, something that you normally would have to be a kobold to have. You're the first person I've heard criticizing Wild Shape in any way. Most people seem to think it's one of the best constructed mechanics released so far.

Oh, and the primal mass of shadowy claws, teeth, etc. is just a suggestion. You can look like whatever creature you want.

When he is saying shift, he is referring to shapeshift and not the movement type.

Wild Shape says that you can shift 1 square when you change back to humanoid form.

[Stedd Grimwold]

ugh, apparently my edit came out as a double-post. Please ignore first post.

There is no restriction on using any power while in beast form as written. There is absolutely no reason to not be in beast form at all times. Unless I missed it, there is no text stating that you can ONLY use beast form powers in beast form.

whoopie, I am a wizard that looks like a bear.

[Matthew Koelbl]

Stedd Grimwold wrote:

ugh, apparently my edit came out as a double-post. Please ignore first post.

There is no restriction on using any power while in beast form as written. There is absolutely no reason to not be in beast form at all times. Unless I missed it, there is no text stating that you can ONLY use beast form powers in beast form.

whoopie, I am a wizard that looks like a bear.

Yes, you missed it. :)

"While you are in beast form, you can't use attack, utility, or feat powers that lack the beast form keyword, although you can sustain such powers."

I can understand the concern about the action cost, but I think it isn't too painful a price, especially given it is actually an action advantage when returning to caster form (and gaining a free 1 space shift). I think it will force the druid to be played with more thought and foresight, but not so much so that the class isn't open to new players.

[Scott Betts]

Yeah, I think this probably boils down to a misunderstanding of the rules.

[William Pall]

Sorry, stupid question for those who've looked at the Druid . . .

And yes I realize that probably no one has seen the full racial write-up for the shifter in 4e . . . but how's the druid's shapeshifting/wildshape different fluff-wise from what all shifters can do?

[FabesMinis]

Druids turn into an animal. Shifters just take on extra animal traits.