If you can't have fun with a high-level fighter like I can, just don't play them. If you don't play them but still complain about them being underpowered, then go see a therapist about your need to argue about things that really don't matter to you personally.
I'm stuck as one right now. It's the somebody's got to play the cleric syndrome, except with the front-line melee guy. I like the character concept, and the relationships that he's built up, but I seriously did not realize the trap awaiting me after 6th level. The RP has trapped me in a character I like but in a class that I increasingly hate. And that's why early/late balancing is bad design.
Seriously, this bruiser's role has been to get bruised while the warmage nukes stuff from orbit. I hit once or twice in battles, taking 50 points of damage to deal out 15. We win or lose based on him. I'm retraining class levels to set up a whirling dervish to at least do some damage.
In the epic level campaign I'm in, I'm in the same situation, only with a barbarian.
Oh, and remember that the OP specifically solicited arguments on why the fighter doesn't work. Ask him to go into therapy: I'm just helping an OP out, like we're supposed to.
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The therapy comment was aimed more at the entire thread than a specific person; no offense meant towards you.
I never let the "somebody has to be a cleric" rule affect me. The main point of that is to pick first, but I guess somebody always draws the short straw, so to speak. Regardless, I normally pick what I want to play. Granted we also have large groups, or most of us just don't really care, but our DMs don't normally make a habit out of throwing us against things that our class choices can't handle just to punish us. Generally one of us will shine at any given moment; there's never really a "we can't touch this thing, period" moment, because that's just not fun (unless it happens to be a story element. One DM found the folly in throwing those things at us, though. We ended up killing everything regardless of the traps he set for us).
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It's WAY too easy for enemies to ignore him. He has no reach, no ability to make immediate-action intercepts, no way to stop intelligent opponents from just walking around him (Jason Bulmahn's Shall Not Pass tries to address this, but doesn't go far enough in my opinion; in 3.5 your only option was a spiked chain tripper). Without giving the fighter immediate actions and interception ability, there's simply no way for him to bodyguard his friends because of the way the turn-based rules are structured. Even spending mad gold, AC scales worse than attacks and damage. And defenses like displacement and stoneskin and mirror image are better than AC anyway. What good is a meat shield who gets hit more often than the "squishy" guys? Did I mention that avoiding him is really easy? I like Derek's suggestion: make full attack a standard action, and spellcasting a full attack action. Then you'd have no more of this "enemy wizard casts spell, moves 30 ft. back, fighter moves up 20 ft. and still can't engage him in melee" stuff. Failing Will saves is far too easy, and very low-level spells (hold person, hideous laughter) that target Will saves take him out of action far too easily.
#1: Simple; get a Halberd, Longspear, Ranseur, Guisarme, Glaive, Whip, or Net. Then, if the rules don't support it(I can't seem to remember if the rules state specifically one way or another), rule that an AoO against targets moving out Threatened Squares can potentially stop their movement cold. e.g. Intelligent Monster attempts to move past Fighter who takes AoO. If he succeeds, the monster can't move further. Alternatively, if the IM tries next round to move away from the Fighter, and the AoO succeeds again, he still can't move away. Any movement which doesn't provoke AoO is safe. For multiple opponents, take Combat Reflexes.
#2: Too many people go for the high STR power hitting(not to be confused with Power Attack) Fighter with Full Plate. That is certainly a valid option, but bigger is not always better in combat. Try a high DEX Finesse fighter with Masterwork Studded Leather early on, you can easily get 17+ AC without the use of magic at first level. Afterwards, you can pick up things to directly increase your AC or DEX. Besides, the fact that you're a "meat shield" actually implies that you should be getting hit more often than the others.
#3: With the previously mentioned high DEX Fighter, you can still move full speed. Add to that the bit mentioned in #1, and you can keep people in place as long as you want. In addition, people make the "wall of flesh and steel" mistake when they expect to be in crowded areas and narrow halls, where the heavy armor/many attacks setup is advantageous, instead of open areas where movement becomes key. This can be avoided by checking with your DM ahead of time to see whether the campaign will be more of a dungeon delving, open area, or wilderness experience to better design your character for the game.
#4: Failing any saving throw is easy if you don't have a high attribute that the throw is based on, doesn't matter what class. Wizards have horrible Fortitude and Reflex saves, does that mean they're unbalanced if they happen to fall into a pit of spikes? What about someone poisoning their food and drink? If that is such a big deal, ask your DM if you can burn a Feat to change the attribute that a specific Saving Throw is based on.
On another note, people talk about carrying a "golf-bag of weapons", while you shouldn't have that many, every character should have 1 ranged weapon, 1 melee weapon, and a backup of either type(two if they're clever). They're adventurers, it makes sense that what they regularly use may not always be useful. They should be prepared for several different eventualities. You can even split those into the different types of metals to overcome DR.
The Ranged weapon can have various ammunition types. As a backup, keep a Sling(no additional weight). You can almost always pick up stones.
The melee weapon, in this case a pair of Cold Iron Handaxes; can be suplimented with a Silvered Morningstar to cover not only the Silver aspect, but the lack of Bludgeoning and Piercing damage.
All characters should at least have a dagger, and all characters but Wizards should carry a spear(due to lack of proficiency, Monks may or may not have it, I can't remember right off hand), simply due to the use and utility of these weapons. Daggers are simply handy, Spears are uberweapons(albeit under-utilized).
Finally, its also dependant on what type of class you prefer to play. If you don't like playing a front line combatant, then in all likelyhood, you won't enjoy playing a Fighter.
Besides, the fact that you're a "meat shield" actually implies that you should be getting hit more often than the others.
Exactly. I don't understand why people think the fighter shouldn't be getting hit. No, his AC probably isn't going to stop anywhere close to 50% of enemy attacks. Try 25-33%. Then consider how much damage mid- to high-level enemies can dish out with that extra 25-33% of attacks. A fighter's AC is still saving his bacon (and/or the cleric a lot of healing spells, particularly over the course of several adventures).
Now, the fighter's AC should still be high relative to the rest of the group, so he's harder to hit than most of them are (clerics and certain other well-designed characters will vie for this "highest AC," of course, but the point is still in tact: fighters have good AC). They also have that nifty d10 HD. "But barbarians get a d12! They are much tougher!" That class may have more hit points, true; but they also don't have proficiency with as heavy of armor, and their primary class ability makes them lower their AC further (and most barbarians I've seen charge a lot, which compounds the issue even more). So they actually have very poor AC for their role and hemorage away those extra hit points. Additionally, barbarians have a "limited" number of rages and duration for each. Now, whether you'd likely actually run out of those over the course of a typical adventuring day is another matter, but I think the point's still worth making.
Someone will certainly bring up the much-vaunted mithril full plate that barbarians are addicted to like cocaine. Go ahead; since this thread has taken wealth-by-level considerations into account several times, we'll look at it here, too. The fighter could also take that mithril full plate just like the barbarian, and be nice and even. It doesn't give them quite the same advantage, though, as the fighters aren't trying to work around their class proficiencies. So, the fighter could also invest that money in something else to boost AC, say rings or enhancement bonuses. Perhaps they could even invest it towards adamantine and pick up some damage reduction. The fighters still won't be raging and sacrificing their AC, so almost no matter what, the fighter will come out with better AC than the barbarian.
The point: fighters make good, perhaps even the best, meat-shields. Their role as such is to get smacked around, to absorb damage away from the rest of the party. They are also the bruisers. Note they aren't called the slayers. They work cooperatively with the mages; the mages can soften up targets with AoE spells, then let the fighters charge around and destroy the monsters (thus conserving spells and perhaps ameliorating the 15 minute adventuring day); or the fighters can soften up foes so that the mages' spells can destroy them. Either way, it's a cooperative effort and one should make sure one understands that going in. If you still think the fighter has problems, there are numerous ways (as I and others have pointed out) that you can make houserule solutions so the fighter properly fills his role in your campaigns.
By all means, Saern, let's look at some possible houserules, because in 3.5 they're unfortunately the only way to keep melee combatants viable after 10th level or so.
Then, if the rules don't support it (I can't seem to remember if the rules state specifically one way or another), rule that an AoO against targets moving out Threatened Squares can potentially stop their movement cold.
Pathfinder has a feat for that, but the target must be adjacent (not just within reach). In core 3.5, you have to trip to stop someone (or else resort to Psionic feats like Stand Still). Like you, I allow interception (in my case as a combat maneuver like Bull Rush), but that's an essential houserule, not a core mechanic.
#2: Besides, the fact that you're a "meat shield" actually implies that you should be getting hit more often than the others.
Then how about providing this:
Second Wind (Ex): Once per day, the fighter can rally his reserves in the face of impending exhaustion. As a swift action, he regains half of his lost hp.With the previously mentioned high DEX Fighter, you can still move full speed. Add to that the bit mentioned in #1, and you can keep people in place as long as you want.
Again, this relies on the "stand still" houserule. I also go a step further, by allowing a character to trade one or more iterative attacks for 10 ft. of movement each; a fighter with 4 attacks could therefore take a 5-ft. step, attack once, move 20 ft., and attack again, for example. Otherwise, whether your base speed is 20 ft. or 200 ft., you still only get one attack. Also, very importantly, I houserule that spellcasting is a full attack action -- that keeps spellcasters from running all over the battlefield with impunity.
Failing any saving throw is easy if you don't have a high attribute that the throw is based on, doesn't matter what class.
Are there 2nd level Dex save spells that instantly take a person out of a fight and render him helpless, regardless of how many hp he has? 2nd level Fort save spells? If not, I'd houserule them in, or else absolutely nerf the hell out of hold person and hideous laughter like Pathfinder did.
Overall, we're looking at heavy use of houserules -- to the point of changing the basic combat mechanics -- to keep melee guys useful at high levels. And that's why people say they're "inferior" in core 3.5.
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I admit, I haven't been playing for long, but I still haven't found any of the problems people mention. I'm simply trying to provide solutions to their problems.
In regards to the Second Wind feat, I don't really see the need for it, but I'll go ahead and suggest an alternative to what you suggested. Make it so that a character can regain hitpoints equal to 1d6/level, CON Mod/day. The drawback is that every time this is used, the character suffers 1 point temporary CON damage, that can only be healed by sleeping for 8 hours.
I admit, I haven't been playing for long, but I still haven't found any of the problems people mention. I'm simply trying to provide solutions to their problems.
In regards to the Second Wind feat, I don't really see the need for it, but I'll go ahead and suggest an alternative to what you suggested. Make it so that a character can regain hitpoints equal to 1d6/level, CON Mod/day. The drawback is that every time this is used, the character suffers 1 point temporary CON damage, that can only be healed by sleeping for 8 hours.
It may be wise to delay the onset of that penalty by a minute or so. That way, the fighter could use it to get himself out of a tight spot, but would have to face repurcussions for it later. Applying the penalty immediately works against the purpose of the ability, at least as I'm looking at it.
I admit, I haven't been playing for long, but I still haven't found any of the problems people mention.
In fairness to you, I think it may be a question of what levels people spend the most time playing, rather than a question of how long they've played. I used to slow advancement a lot and spend the most time in the 3rd - 11th level range, where those problems don't really occur. It wasn't until I ran the Age of Worms and Savage Tide APs that I began to notive the issues that creep in above 10th level, and get progressively worse from there. I'm seeing that in 3.5 (and in our Pathfinder playtests, for that matter) fighters and barbarians are the kings of combat right out of the gate -- nobody else can come close to competing with them. Even at 4th-7th level, this remains true; 3rd and 4th level spells are good, but a second attack is very, very good. In continuing play, however, I notice that a 3rd iterative attack (at 11th level, with a -10 penalty!) is nowhere near as good as a 6th level spell.
See, the game is structured so that casters' higher level abilities are proportionately BETTER than their lower-level ones: spells have higher save DCs, better effects, etc. Melee guys' abilities are proportionately WORSE at higher levels: escalating attack penalties, and feats that don't scale with level (+1 to AC at 1st level is a nice boost; by 15th level it's irrelevant). People argue that spells are one-shot deals, and feats can be used all day, but no feat is much better than a 0-level spell, and casters get unlimited numbers of those in Pathfinder now. I had hopes that Pathfinder would rectify this by scaling combat feats with BAB (and/or by making more powerful 1/day feats like the one I mentioned above) but that seems like it won't happen, so lots of houserules that skew combat drastically in favor of combatants with multiple attacks are the best I can do.
...no feat is much better than a 0-level spell...
I understand what you're saying, but I really have to disagree with this. There are a lot of constant-effect feats which modify other stats and aren't that power, yes. But feats such as Power Attack, Whirlwind Attack, Combat Reflexes, Improved Trip/Disarm/Sunder; all these are far more powerful than any cantrip or orison, regardless of whether their likely users run into problems late in the game or not.
Saern, the tone comes from the time-investment. If a character you've invested so much time to get from 1st level to 12th suddenly started becoming progressively unfun, and the fault lay with the game mechanics and not the DM, you'd be pretty disappointed, yes? In games that meet weekly for 3-4 hours, it can take 2 years to get a character that far.
It has to come down to feats (in 3.5, entirely down to them, but also in PFRPG the feats are the dominant fighter class feature). Stack up a bunch of fighter bonus feats against the class features of the other full BAB classes and see what you think (and for PFRPG you can chuck in the armour and weapon mastery). Personally, I think that the Ranger is also combat-underpowered, although at least their new AC (in the revision Jason posted) won't be completely useless. Barbarian rage keeps them more relevant and they can at least move farther, wheras high-AC fighter-turtle doesn't seem very impressive (although perhaps the new feats like Lunge will make them more worthwhile).
Where is that revision been posted ?
Improved Trip/Disarm/Sunder; all these are far more powerful than any cantrip or orison
Sorry; too much PF playtesting on my plate! I'll freely grant that some feats used to be better than that, in 3.5 (Imroved Trip and Power Attack stand out strongly in that regard). Pathfinder in particular has made the error of ensuring that all feats are cantrip-level only (Improved Trip: +2 to checks. Period. And the checks are at -4 to start with because the base DC is higher, so it's a net -2 even after selecting the feat! At least in 3.5 it was +4 to checks AND a free attack, which, as you correctly point out, is WAY better than a cantrip).
my players fighters kill kill and kill some-more, usually every combat encounter revolves around the rest of the party supporting the actions of the fighter chopping up the bad guys into mincemeat
we play 3.5 BTW and my players mostly stick to the CORE 3 books with a rare dabble in the splat books
my players fighters kill kill and kill some-more, usually every combat encounter revolves around the rest of the party supporting the actions of the fighter chopping up the bad guys into mincemeat we play 3.5 BTW and my players mostly stick to the CORE 3 books with a rare dabble in the splat books
At what levels? As noted, they were always walking destruction at low levels, and even into mid-level range (10th). 15th - 20th level is when melee characters really get helpless, unless the DM plays the monsters ineffectually.
Exactly. I don't understand why people think the fighter shouldn't be getting hit. No, his AC probably isn't going to stop anywhere close to 50% of enemy attacks. Try 25-33%. Then consider how much damage mid- to high-level enemies can dish out with that extra 25-33% of attacks. A fighter's AC is still saving his bacon (and/or the cleric a lot of healing spells, particularly over the course of several adventures).Besides, the fact that you're a "meat shield" actually implies that you should be getting hit more often than the others.
Pure core 3.5, I can play an 18th-20th level "meat shield" with AC 47 (52 on a melee full attack for a -2 penalty on attack rolls) before having foresight, haste, polymorph, etc. cast on him. Dwarf ex-barbarian 2/fighter 8/dwarven defender 10; 32 Point Buy for 20 Str (16 + 4 advances), 15 Dex (14 + 1 advance), 16 Con, 12 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha; Dodge, Endurance, Improved Initiative, Improved Shield Bash, Power Attack, Toughness, Two-Weapon Fighting, +5 other feats; +5 mithral full plate, +5 animated light steel shield with +5 defending shield spikes, ring of protection +5, amulet of natural armor +5, boots of striding and springing (Speed 40 ft*), girdle of giant strength +6 (26 Str), gloves of dexterity +4 (19 Dex), ioun stone (dusty rose prism). IMO, the Fast Movement and Uncanny Dodge are worth sacrificing one bonus feat. Depending on whether damage or defense is more important, he will either use Power Attack with a dwarven waraxe two-handed and the shield animated or Two-Weapon Fighting with dwarven waraxe and defending shield spikes.
*- Since barbarian Fast Move is untyped and mithral full plate is treated as medium armor, it is in effect and stacks with the enhancement bonus; haste grants full 60 ft
Advancement Scheme:
Barbarian 1; 16 Str, 14 Dex, 16 Con, 12 Int, 12 Wis, 8 Cha; Toughness (because 18 hp at 1st level is a good thing)
Fighter 1; feat (Power Attack? Rapid Reload? Weapon Focus?)
Barbarian 2; feat (Dodge?)
Fighter 2; +1 Str; feat (Mobility?); switch to Lawful alignment sometime after this point
Fighter 4; 2 feats (Endurance? Spring Attack? Weapon Specialization?); make sure Dodge and Endurance are taken by this point
Fighter 5
Dwarven Defender 1; +1 Str
Dwarven Defender 2; feat (Improved Initiative?)
Dwarven Defender 4
Fighter 6; +1 Dex; 2 feats (Improved Shield Bash, Two-Weapon Fighting)
Dwarven Defender 7; feat (?)
Dwarven Defender 8; +1 Str
Dwarven Defender 10; feat (?)
Fighter 8; +1 Str; feat (?)
One other option is to change starting Int to 14 and Cha to 6, so as to qualify for the Combat Expertise feat chain.