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Ok, I need to replace the paladin for my homebrew campaign, as the medieval holy knight does not fit well in a bronze age campaign. The class is intended to be on the power level of the PFRPG Beta classes, as those are the rules we're using. I'm posting the class as currently conceived for feedback. does it look fun? Too weak? too strong? let me know what you think
Design goal: replace the paladin with an more flexible holy warrior (read: any alignment) while maintaining the core idea of a 'holy warrior'
Class features:
Base attack: +1/lvl
Good saves: fort and will
Hit dice: d10
Class Skills: Craft, Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge(nobility), Knowledge(religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft.
Skill Points: 2 plus int modifier
Weapons & armor: all simple and martial weapons, all armors & shields
LEVEL ABILITIES
1- Aura, Domain power, smite 1/day
2- domain power, lay on hands
3- divine grace, smite 2/day
4- domain power
5- silver smite
6- smite 3/day, mettle
7- iron smite
8- domain power
9- smite 4/day
10- aligned smite
11-
12- domain power, smite 5/day
13- adamantite smite
14-
15- smite 6/day
16- domain power
17-
18- smite 7/day
19-
20- domain power
Class ability descriptions:
Aura: as cleric.
Domain powers: The Templar must choose one of the domains associated with his deity, and will gain all of the powers associated with that domain. Once this choice has been made, it cannot be changed.
Smite: once per day at 1st level, a templar can smite an opponent in combat. The smite attack receives an attack bonus equal to the templar’s charisma bonus (if any), and a damage bonus equal to the templar’s level. At 3rd level and every 3 levels thereafter, the templar gains an additional use of smite each day. At 5th level a templar’s smite attack counts as a silver weapon for the purpose of damage reduction. At 7th level a smite attack also counts as a cold iron weapon. At 10th level, the smite attack of a templar counts as aligned for the purpose of penetrating alignment based damage reduction. At 13th level, a templar’s smite attack counts as an adamantite weapon for the purpose of penetrating damage reduction.
Lay on hands: as 3.5 paladin.
Divine Grace: At 3rd level a templar gains a bonus on all saving throws equal to his charisma bonus.
Spells per Day: A templar has the ability to cast a small number of divine spells each day, starting at 4th level chosen from the templar spell list. To cast a spell, the templar must have a charisma score of at least 10 + the spell’s level, so a templar with a charisma of 10 or less cannot cast spells. Templars receive bonus spells based off of their charisma, and the saving throw DC of their spells is 10 + spell level + charisma bonus. Like a cleric, a templar has access to any spells on their list, but must prepare them in advance.
Mettle: At 6th level, a templar gains the ability to shrug off magical effects that would otherwise harm or impede him. If a templar makes a successful will or fortitude save that would normally reduce the spell’s effect, he suffers no effect from the spell. This works only on spells that list ‘will partial’ or ‘fortitude half’ (or similar wording) in the saving throw column.
Spell lists:
Templar Spells
1st Level templar spells: Bless, command, cure light wounds, deathwatch, detect chaos/good/evil/law, divine favor, endure elements, magic weapon, protection from chaos/good/evil/law, read magic, restoration-lesser
2nd Level templar spells: Bear’s endurance, Bull’s strength, Cat’s grace, cure moderate wounds, eagle’s splendor, hold person, remove paralysis, resist energy, spiritual weapon, status
3rd Level templar spells: cure serious wounds, daylight, dismissal, dispel magic, magic circle against chaos/good/evil/law, magic weapon greater, prayer, remove blindness, remove curse, remove disease
4th Level templar spells: break enchantment, commune, cure critical wounds, death ward, dimensional anchor, freedom of movement, mark of justice, neutralize poison, planar ally lesser, restoration
Here are the major changes from the core paladin:
1. turn undead, paladin mount, and curing/immunity powers are eliminated
2. smite is improved and its acquisition is accelerated. as you go up in levels your smite ignores more tyes of DR.
3. One clerical domain is given to the class. This provides each different religion with flavorful powers. Templars of different faiths would have radically different powers. This refers to Pathfinder domains, as 3.5 domains would not work well IMO.
4. mettle (from complete divine) - evasion for the other saves
5. both fort and will are good saves. This is intended to compensate for the lack of immunities (disease, charm, etc...)
6. spell list is modified and the 'goody goody' was limited. Spells are primarily healing and buffing in nature. Several offensive options were added.
It looks good. I don't know what the Pathfinder Domain Powers are, though. Also, I personally don't like empty levels, and you have some levels with 2 abilities granted. I would try to stagger these so only 1 ability per level is given, maybe by delaying the DR bypassing if given a choice. DR bypassing is going to be pretty powerful in a campaign with only bronze weapons. But useful, and not OVERpowering.
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Since you're allowing for any alignment, why don't you give them a choice of Harm Touch as opposed to Lay on Hands if they're evil? It would be pretty much the exact opposite in everything, no major changes would really be necessary. It would be like the cleric's choice between being able to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells
EDIT: Also, how would your smite work? Is it good against anyone, or just the opposed alignment (ie. if you are chaotic good, you could use it against anyone that was lawful and/or evil)?
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Since you're allowing for any alignment, why don't you give them a choice of Harm Touch as opposed to Lay on Hands if they're evil? It would be pretty much the exact opposite in everything, no major changes would really be necessary. It would be like the cleric's choice between being able to spontaneously cast cure or inflict spells
EDIT: Also, how would your smite work? Is it good against anyone, or just the opposed alignment (ie. if you are chaotic good, you could use it against anyone that was lawful and/or evil)?
OK, smite allows you to target an enemy of your choice without being tied to alignment. Rather than smiting someone because their alignment puts them on your deity's naughty list, the smite is used on someone the templar himself chooses as a worthy target.
As for lay on hands, the thread Slaad just ate my response, so I'll repost a truncated version. I want the templar to have the ability to heal himself in combat - that was why i kept Lay on Hands in the class features. I see what you're saying about the ability not really fitting for an evil character (although they need healing too!). What if it was replaced with something that functioned closer to a monk's ability to heal himself? That would be appropriate for an evil character as well, right?
SmiloDan: there is not a ton of room to move things, as they tend to follow a pattern of every x levels on the list. mettle could be shifted to 11th level (which I actually like - its a pretty strong power), but I don't have a lot of other options for shifting things. Do you have any suggestions?
btw guys, thanks for the feedback.
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well, since the smite is good against anyone I would say to definitely keep the lay on hands. Evil characters could still benefit from it, and they would be much more likely to use it on themselves than others. If you want it to be confined to only healing the Templar, then make changes to make it more like Wholeness of Body. But as you said, even evil people need healing, and it would be beneficial if they could claim they are good by healing a few minor wounds to get close to the goody goody people for the strike.... Oh, sorry, I kinda trailed off there. Anyways, you get the general idea here
These don't have as many smites as your version, but it's an attempt.
1. Aura, Domain, Smite 1/day
2. Domain, Lay on Hands
3. Divine Grace
4. Domain
5. Smite 2/day
6. Lay on Hands--remove 5 point conditions
7. Overcome Silver DR
8. Domain
9. Smite 3/day
10. Mettle, Lay on Hands--remove 10 point conditions
11. Overcome Aligned DR
12. Domain
13. Smite 4/day
14. Lay on Hands--remove 20 point conditions
15. Overcome Cold Iron DR
16. Domain
17. Smite 5/day
18. Greater Lay on Hands (double)
19. Overcome Adamantine DR
20. Domain
See the PH2's Dragon Shaman's Touch of Vitality for 5, 10, and 20 point conditions.
Alternatively:
1. Aura, Domain, Smite 1/day
2. Domain, Lay on Hands
3. Divine Grace
4. Domain
5. Smite 2/day
6. Lay on Hands--remove conditions
7. Overcome Silver DR
8. Domain
9. Smite 3/day
10. Mettle
11. Overcome Aligned DR
12. Domain
13. Smite 4/day
14. Lay on Hands (Swift Self-healing)
15. Overcome Cold Iron DR
16. Domain
17. Smite 5/day
18. Greater Lay on Hands (double)
19. Overcome Adamantine DR
20. Domain
You could use the OGL Variant Paladins from Unearthed Arcana (possibly combined with the Prestige Paladin, as well). Change the name of the "holy warrior" to something else (or even four different names) and make the "paladins" members of various religious orders. You could also mix things up by having some "holy warriors" with Smite Law/Chaos (instead of Good/Evil), probably based on deity. You can get effectively 8 varieties of "holy warrior" in this manner: LG w/Smite Chaos, LG w/Smite Evil, CG w/Smite Law, CG w/Smite Evil, LE w/Smite Chaos, LE w/Smite Good, CE w/Smite Law, and CE w/Smite Good.
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ok, first i want to thank everyone for the feedback and suggestions. i think i finally have the class in a format that suits my needs. here is the modified 20 level power progression.
1- aura, domain power, smite 1/day
2- domain power, lay on hands
3- divine grace, smite 2/day
4- domain power, silver smite
5- smite 3/day
6- mettle
7- smite 4/day
8- domain power, iron smite
9- smite 5/day
10- aligned smite
11- smite 6/day
12- domain power
13- smite 7/day
14- adamantite smite
15- smite 8/day
16- domain power
17- smite 9/day
18- supreme smite
19- smite 10/day
20- domain power
I accelerated the smite acquisition to every odd level. there are no bonus feats provided to the class, and smiting counts as the primary offensive ability. the new supreme smite power at 18th level ignores all damage reduction (slash, bludgeon, or -) and make all successful hits on a smite attack a potential critical. confirmation rolls would function as normal. (note: this is the one ability i have yet to playtest.)
to give you a feel for how this would look, I'll show how several characters' abilities would look at 10th level:
All characters would be able to smite 5/day, gain a bonus to their saves equal to their charisma bonus, be able to heal level x chr bonus hp each day, and avoid partial effects on will and fort save spells.
The domain powers are where IMO the real beauty, and much of the versatility, of this class would lie. Here are some of the power lists they would have at level 10:
A templar of Lamashtu choses the Madness domain and would gain:
1- vision of madness (su) at will touch attack/utility
2- lesser confusion 5/day
3- touch of idiocy 1/day
4- aura of madness (su)(confusion 30' radius)
...those powers would be very different than our next example, a templar of Desna that chose the travel domain:
1- dimensional hop (su)
2- expeditious retreat 5/day
3- levitate 1/day
4- flight (su) 1rd/level/day
or even a templar of Asmodeus that chose the trickery domain
1- copy cat (single mirror image)
2- disguise self 5/day
3- invisibility 1/day
4- master of illusion
as you can see, each templar will have a differing set of capabilities that tie closely to their deity with this design. Even templars of the same god will have a very different feel if they focus on a different domain of their deity. This structure also should be completely alignment neutral divine warrior.
Thoughts?
Looks good. Looks like a cross between the paladin and the duskblade. I like the idea of a front-line fighter type that has "trump card" abilities. Some might think it's getting too many daily smites, but by mid-level, you probably should be able to get a good smite in once per encounter. By high levels, you should be able to use them practically whenever you'd want to.
You can compare it to the Barbarian's rage: By mid-to-high levels, he should rage during every encounter (assuming 3-4 challenging encounters a day). And the benefits of rage apply to every hit. Smites are a little more spectacular, but only work for a single hit. And look at a mid-to-high level duskblade. They have enough spells per day to actually channel a spell every round they're in combat.
And look at a mid-to-high level duskblade. They have enough spells per day to actually channel a spell every round they're in combat.
Considering the selection of touch spells a duskblade gets*, it's actually less powerful than it seems. Arcane Channeling only works with spells that have a range of touch. Now a duskblade 13/spellsword 7 has more options...
* 0-touch of fatigue; 1st-blade of blood, chill touch, shocking grasp; 2nd-ghoul touch, touch of idiocy; 3rd-dispelling touch, vampiric touch; 4th-toxic weapon
And look at a mid-to-high level duskblade. They have enough spells per day to actually channel a spell every round they're in combat.Considering the selection of touch spells a duskblade gets*, it's actually less powerful than it seems. Arcane Channeling only works with spells that have a range of touch. Now a duskblade 13/spellsword 7 has more options...
* 0-touch of fatigue; 1st-blade of blood, chill touch, shocking grasp; 2nd-ghoul touch, touch of idiocy; 3rd-dispelling touch, vampiric touch; 4th-toxic weapon
And extra +5d6 electrical isn't something to sneeze at--especially if you have Energy Substitution. It's not broken, but it's nice. And the duskblade can (obviously) use higher level spell slots to get more Shocking Grasps, or Empower or Maximize them (those might have to be Sudden Empowered or Maximized, I forget if there are rules for applying metamagic feats to Channelled spells).
And extra +5d6 electrical isn't something to sneeze at--especially if you have Energy Substitution. It's not broken, but it's nice. And the duskblade can (obviously) use higher level spell slots to get more Shocking Grasps, or Empower or Maximize them (those might have to be Sudden Empowered or Maximized, I forget if there are rules for applying metamagic feats to Channelled spells).And look at a mid-to-high level duskblade. They have enough spells per day to actually channel a spell every round they're in combat.Considering the selection of touch spells a duskblade gets*, it's actually less powerful than it seems. Arcane Channeling only works with spells that have a range of touch. Now a duskblade 13/spellsword 7 has more options...
* 0-touch of fatigue; 1st-blade of blood, chill touch, shocking grasp; 2nd-ghoul touch, touch of idiocy; 3rd-dispelling touch, vampiric touch; 4th-toxic weapon
Once the duskblade/spellsword gains the Channel Spell ability (around 9th character level, if the character goes for it ASAP), he can also add color spray, Kelgore's fire bolt, ray of enfeeblement, Melf's acid arrow, scorching ray, doom scarabs, ray of exhaustion, channeled pyroburst, enervation, phantasmal killer, shout, Bigby's clenched fist, chain lightning, disintegrate, hold monster, polar ray, or slashing dispel to weapon damage (as the character goes up in level). Granted, you can only use it a few times per day, but the increase in versatility is huge. In many cases, I'd prefer adding color spray or ray of enfeeblement to a weapon attack instead of shocking grasp.
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Looks good. Looks like a cross between the paladin and the duskblade. I like the idea of a front-line fighter type that has "trump card" abilities. Some might think it's getting too many daily smites, but by mid-level, you probably should be able to get a good smite in once per encounter. By high levels, you should be able to use them practically whenever you'd want to.
You can compare it to the Barbarian's rage: By mid-to-high levels, he should rage during every encounter (assuming 3-4 challenging encounters a day). And the benefits of rage apply to every hit. Smites are a little more spectacular, but only work for a single hit. And look at a mid-to-high level duskblade. They have enough spells per day to actually channel a spell every round they're in combat.
Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback you & Dragonchess have provided. i have never actually looked at the duskblade, so any similarities are purely coincidental. I agree with your comments about smite frequency since that is what this class is about. I have been looking with interest at some of the other paladin threads out there. I think I may try for one more iteration of this design where i lower the smites to 1st level, plus 1 every 3rd level (like old-school feat progression). In the 3 open levels that would create, I could put some of the smite conditions suggested in other threads (ie, shaken, panic, nauseous, etc...)
On the other hand, I could just add these abilities to the build. Allow a templar to choose 'smite powers' from a short list of options. Powers could be chosen at three specific levels.
Any thoughts?
Looks good. Looks like a cross between the paladin and the duskblade. I like the idea of a front-line fighter type that has "trump card" abilities. Some might think it's getting too many daily smites, but by mid-level, you probably should be able to get a good smite in once per encounter. By high levels, you should be able to use them practically whenever you'd want to.
You can compare it to the Barbarian's rage: By mid-to-high levels, he should rage during every encounter (assuming 3-4 challenging encounters a day). And the benefits of rage apply to every hit. Smites are a little more spectacular, but only work for a single hit. And look at a mid-to-high level duskblade. They have enough spells per day to actually channel a spell every round they're in combat.Thanks guys, I appreciate the feedback you & Dragonchess have provided. i have never actually looked at the duskblade, so any similarities are purely coincidental. I agree with your comments about smite frequency since that is what this class is about. I have been looking with interest at some of the other paladin threads out there. I think I may try for one more iteration of this design where i lower the smites to 1st level, plus 1 every 3rd level (like old-school feat progression). In the 3 open levels that would create, I could put some of the smite conditions suggested in other threads (ie, shaken, panic, nauseous, etc...)
On the other hand, I could just add these abilities to the build. Allow a templar to choose 'smite powers' from a short list of options. Powers could be chosen at three specific levels.
Any thoughts?
Sounds cool. You might want to look at the Warlock and their Eldritch Essence invocations for ideas about the appropriateness of levels and conditions. They have 4 levels of invocations (Least, Lesser, Greater, and Dark), so you might want to consider those. Maybe replace Dark with True to make it more "paladiny."
