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Where would you set The Temple of Elemenatl Evil on Golarion ?
What year is the Golarion Campaign set in, it seems there is no set date so as not to invalidate the APs but what year does Paizo assume it to be on Golarion currently ?
Thanks
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What year is the Golarion Campaign set in, it seems there is no set date so as not to invalidate the APs but what year does Paizo assume it to be on Golarion currently ?
The year system works this way. It is currently 2008, so the Golarion year is 4708. In 20XX, the Golarion year will be 47XX.
The adventure paths can theoretically be set whenever you want, as long as it's in the general area of the year when it was published.
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Starting withWhere would you set The Temple of Elemenatl Evil on Golarion ?
What year is the Golarion Campaign set in, it seems there is no set date so as not to invalidate the APs but what year does Paizo assume it to be on Golarion currently ?
Thanks
I played ToEE; it was one of the first modules i went through as a player and was THE first module i GM'ed; i think a lot of the APs' starting towns can claim that little piece of role playing real estate, Hommlet, as thier grandfather.
I belive James said that it was one of his favourite supermodules of all time. I think I have taken at least 22 people through this adventure over the years and it would be intersting how it would develop in Golarion. I'd love to know where you could find the Inn of the Welcome Wench in Golarion.
Maybe a secret cult within a secret cult that is using the temple to find a way of setting a portion of Rovagug free ?
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As far as location, do you have the Gazeteer? If not, I'd say place Hommlet northwest of Korvosa, near the Ashwood, and use one of the small river towns like Ilsurian or Biston in place of Nulb. Then put the Temple itself in the Ashwood. In that case, the Battle of Emridy Meadows could have been fought by an army from Korvosa (possibly with aid from the dwarves of Janderhoff), and the current Temple leaders could be drawing recruits from the surrounding area, including Kaer Maga.
If you do have the Gazetteer, I'd place the Temple in the Fangwood, along the river border between Lastwall and Nirmathas. That way, the Temple forces could have been defeated at Emridy Meadows by an army of crusaders from Lastwall who suspected the Temple was being directed by the Whispering Tyrant (who could be a nice stand-in for Iuz). Hommlet could be one of the northernmost settlements of Nirmathas (which has only been around about 50 years, so just a decade or two before the first rise of the Temple), west of the forest and just south of the river, with Nulb along the river to the east. That way, Hommlet's nicely isolated from the conflict with Molthune because of its northerly location, and probably sitting on a trade route (like in the original module) due to its proximity to Bloodsworm Vale and the road to Janderhoff.
The dominant faiths in the area mesh well with ToEE, with Erastil standing in for the old faith and Iomedae replacing St. Cuthbert. You've got lots of opportunities for hardy folk from Nirmathas or fledgling crusaders from Lastwall, and about any kind of character could have traveled east from Varisia.
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Also, I think baron's idea about Rovagug is a good one. It isn't spelled out in ToEE, but Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil explains that the ultimate goal of the Elemental Evil cults, known only to a few elders, is to free Tharizdun from his imprisonment. In that case, Rovagug makes a nice substitute.
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As far as location, do you have the Gazeteer? If not, I'd say place Hommlet northwest of Korvosa, near the Ashwood, and use one of the small river towns like Ilsurian or Biston in place of Nulb. Then put the Temple itself in the Ashwood. In that case, the Battle of Emridy Meadows could have been fought by an army from Korvosa (possibly with aid from the dwarves of Janderhoff), and the current Temple leaders could be drawing recruits from the surrounding area, including Kaer Maga.
If you do have the Gazetteer, I'd place the Temple in the Fangwood, along the river border between Lastwall and Nirmathas. That way, the Temple forces could have been defeated at Emridy Meadows by an army of crusaders from Lastwall who suspected the Temple was being directed by the Whispering Tyrant (who could be a nice stand-in for Iuz). Hommlet could be one of the northernmost settlements of Nirmathas (which has only been around about 50 years, so just a decade or two before the first rise of the Temple), west of the forest and just south of the river, with Nulb along the river to the east. That way, Hommlet's nicely isolated from the conflict with Molthune because of its northerly location, and probably sitting on a trade route (like in the original module) due to its proximity to Bloodsworm Vale and the road to Janderhoff.
The dominant faiths in the area mesh well with ToEE, with Erastil standing in for the old faith and Iomedae replacing St. Cuthbert. You've got lots of opportunities for hardy folk from Nirmathas or fledgling crusaders from Lastwall, and about any kind of character could have traveled east from Varisia.
I have the Campaign setting and I'll have a look the areas Tribeof1 suggested, but the Whispering Tyrant as a stand in for Iuz is Brilliant ! If you plan for your players in encountering him in the bowells of the temple... well I hope thier 8 level characters role play themselves out of a TPK!
Erastil and Iomedae are near perfect replacements for the Old Faith and St. Cuthbert respectively, although you would have to downplay the animosity of Iomedae's church to the Whispering Tyrant.
Also, I think baron's idea about Rovagug is a good one. It isn't spelled out in ToEE, but Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil explains that the ultimate goal of the Elemental Evil cults, known only to a few elders, is to free Tharizdun from his imprisonment. In that case, Rovagug makes a nice substitute.
I have always played it this way [long before the publication of RttToEE which i have read through but not used], it just makes for a better storyline and gives a lot back story logic, like why Iuz was in no rush to free his consort, Zugttomoy.
Who would be granting spells to the priests of a Golarion ToEE though ?
Thanks for all the advice tribeof1!
A few questions that have been plaugeing me
Who would you suggest i replace Crown Prince Thormmel with in Golarion?
I'm thinking that *issue* will be the most difficult to incorporate.
I would love to role play his return to his homeland and Royal family. After a few weeks I can see powerful NPCs in search of the players as the newly instated prince {once proven the genuine article} is gracious to his rescuers.
I think the players would very well become the agents of that nation's interests, something akin to the CIA or the Eagle Knights of Golarion. Or maybe even agents on the prince himself which he keeps as an instrument of his retribution.
My DM who has played through this adventure said he would be the hardest to incorporate; misshing heirs to the monarchy are not a dime a dozen. And there's the issue of why he was unlocateable. Wish spell perhaps ? But that seems a little bit contrived, and why did his nation not use Wish spells to find him ? Rival noble houses eyeing the throne ?
umm ... ?
Hello out there ? : (
Who would you suggest i replace Crown Prince Thormmel with in Golarion?
Well, if you're going with the Korvosa idea, making him a member of the royal family there, one that opposes the queen, that might make for an interesting twist on the Curse of the Crimson Throne AP. Basickly having the AP from an entirely different angle.
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Just got back from a weekend on the river, but here's some ideas:
If you place the Temple on the Nirmathas-Lastwall border, I'd make Thrommel the (previous) Watcher-Lord of Lastwall, gone missing in the crusade that defeated the Temple forces a generation earlier. That way his return could cause some interesting conflict -- who becomes Watcher-Lord, Thrommel, or the 19-year-old who currently rules Lastwall? -- and also sets the stage for the PCs to become agents of Lastwall keeping an eye on the happenings to the south.
If you set the Temple northwest of Korvosa, make Thrommel the scion of one of the city's noble houses. I'd suggest (Curse of the Crimson Throne spoilers ...)
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Also, as to why Thrommel wasn't located -- wish spells aren't exactly a dime a dozen in Golarion, so it's not illogical that his loved ones couldn't afford that level of magic or couldn't find a high enough level mage to cast it. Or, maybe Thrommel was initially killed by the Temple survivors. When divination magic was used to find him, he shows up dead and his family gives up. Then, a few weeks later, the Temple forces decide he might come in handy as a bargaining chip down the road, so they raise him from the dead and place him in suspended animation or whatever.
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If you set the Temple northwest of Korvosa, make Thrommel the scion of one of the city's noble houses. I'd suggest (Curse of the Crimson Throne spoilers ...)
** spoiler omitted **
Tribeof1 that's simply brilliant !! If i were to ever run the original Temple on Golarion that's the way I would do it !!
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Crap, I wrote a long, eloquent post and the boards ate it. Here goes again:
While I personally favor the Lastwall-Nirmathas location, placing the Temple near Korvosa gives you a lot more published material to draw on, which could help in a couple of ways.
ToEE was actually the last campaign I ran (updating to 3.5 and level-appropriate encounters) before my current Rise of the Runelords game, so I thought I'd share a few tips I learned in hindsight.
The early part of the adventure (Hommlet and the Moathouse) is fantastic and requires little more than updating the monster stats to run. Nulb, too, is good with a little work. Take a look at the ToEE computer game for some sub-plots to flesh out the Nulb section and a nice side-trek to Emridy Meadows. I even added in the Dungeon adventure "Fiend's Embrace," placing the ruined fort in the swamps near Nulb.
Things start to bog down in the Temple itself, which can easily fall into "kick down the door, kill the room's occupants, rinse and repeat ad nauseum." This happened in my game, despite my best efforts. I was able to hold the players' attention for a while with dynamic, set-piece encounters in the various elemental shrines, but the campaign petered out on Dungeon Level 3 when the PCs were about 13th level.
To avoid that, I'd try one or two tactics (or both) to amp up the role-play as a way of balancing the hack-n-slash: If your players are inclined toward stealth (mine were not), encourage them to infiltrate some of the Temple factions rather than just barge in with swords swinging. This could lead to some cloak-and-dagger style intrigue that will keep things fresh.
Second, create a reason for the group to make frequent trips back to town. They could need to report to a patron (such as Thrommel), foil the machinations of underground elemental cultists in Korvosa or race to stop a group of Temple agents seeking a powerful artifact in Kaer Maga.
This way, the PCs are fighting the Temple on two fronts, allowing you to alleviate the boredom of what is essentially a massive dungeon crawl.It also forces the group to re-infiltrate the Temple each time they return, either battling new foes (reinforcements drawn from deeper levels) in previously cleared areas or finding new entrances into the dungeons.
On a side note, I'd encourage you to add an entrance or two -- the original module notes that the stairs from the aboveground Temple are rarely used, and the secret entrance from the ruined tower leads into a supposedly "secret" part of Dungeon Level 3. So apparently, regular Temple occupants, not to mention visitors like the troll chief, have no way in or out ... What I did was add a "freight entrance," a concealed tunnel running from just outside the ruined curtain wall outside the Temple to the hexagonal chamber on the east side of Dungeon Level 1.
I hope some of that is useful. I'd love to hear what you've got planned for your game. If you have any other questions, just ask!
Crap, I wrote a long, eloquent post and the boards ate it. Here goes again:
Thanks for retyping the reply tribe : )
ToEE was actually the last campaign I ran (updating to 3.5 and level-appropriate encounters) before my current Rise of the Runelords game, so I thought I'd share a few tips I learned in hindsight.
The early part of the adventure (Hommlet and the Moathouse) is fantastic and requires little more than updating the monster stats to run. Nulb, too, is good with a little work. Take a look at the ToEE computer game for some sub-plots to flesh out the Nulb section and a nice side-trek to Emridy Meadows.
Groovy ! I'm really happy somebody accomplished and completed something I am in the middle of attempting !
I don't have immediate access to the video game, would you mind elaborating on the sub plots, I may tie them in with Hommlet as well if I have enough back story. I already plan to make Lareth the Beautiful a fire redheaded female, and the red mantis assassin who comes searching for the pcs after her untimely demise will either be her brother, lover or both ; )
Any thoughts on who Lareth shoud be a priest of ? Perhaps paying lip service to a diety but secretly a thrall of Rovagug ?
By the way how did your [i'm guessing] 2nd level party deal with the 10 level assassin ?
Things start to bog down in the Temple itself, which can easily fall into "kick down the door, kill the room's occupants, rinse and repeat ad nauseum."
Wait, that's a bad thing ? I kid
I was able to hold the players' attention for a while with dynamic, set-piece encounters in the various elemental shrines, but the campaign petered out on Dungeon Level 3 when the PCs were about 13th level.
Hmm, while I have not done any tables for xp, I was under the impression, not counting side trecks and DM made encounters, that the adventure would end with the players hitting about level 10.
To avoid that, I'd try one or two tactics (or both) to amp up the role-play ... If your players are inclined toward stealth (mine were not), encourage them to infiltrate some of the Temple factions rather than just barge in with swords swinging. This could lead to some cloak-and-dagger style intrigue that will keep things fresh.Second, create a reason for the group to make frequent trips back to town. They could need to report to a patron (such as Thrommel), foil the machinations of underground elemental cultists in Korvosa or race to stop a group..
I'm not sure how well the player who always plays pladins will be into cloak and dagger but he may surprise me [maybe not even play a paladin, but that's doubtful]; but having said that, I was thinking along those same lines as well. Thanks for the validation of some of my ideas ! Keep them comming. I plan to use a lot of cut away scenes to show the infighting among the Temple once the players realize there are several factions striving for dominance.
On a side note, I'd encourage you to add an entrance or two -- the original module notes that the stairs from the aboveground Temple are rarely used, and the secret entrance from the ruined tower leads into a supposedly "secret" part of Dungeon Level 3. So apparently, regular Temple occupants, not to mention visitors like the troll chief, have no way in or out ... What I did was add a "freight entrance," a concealed tunnel running from just outside the ruined curtain wall outside the Temple to the hexagonal chamber on the east side of Dungeon Level 1.
Wow had not even thought of that one; nice catch. I am having issue with the map scale and hieght of the dungeon levels. I was thinking of raising the roof of the underground levels 10 feet or so and making each floor square 15 feet [instead of 10] to explain the hill giants and very close proximity of enemies from each faction. Map and grid work are my weakest newbie DM skills let me tell you !
Where else would you place the other entrance ?
I hope some of that is useful. I'd love to hear what you've got planned for your game. If you have any other questions, just ask!
Oh you bet I will ! And *everything* has been super useful.
Here are a few questions, not the biggies but off the top of my head::
I'm not a fan of the hydra, did you use it ? If not what did you substitue for it?
Also I'm not a fan of the artifact Lens of transformation, but i think i have plans for that already. I'm thinking that any character who looks at it for an extended amount of time, say 3 rounds, gets teleported to a random spot in the temple. But at the same time, with the proper command words, pcs and npc can use the Lens to scry the various parts of the temple. Thoughts ?
Did your players get to enter the elemantal nodes ?
This question probobly could be definitively answered by Todd Stewart or James Jacobs; in Golarion, can singular fiends [demond lords, deamon overlords, arch dukes of perdition] grant cleric spells ? Can Elemental lords grant spells ?
Do npcs or pcs need the thrall feat to be able to receive spells from them ?
Do these same fiends have aspects the same way they did in 3.5 ? What happens if said aspect is destroyed ? Would the capture of an aspect in any way compromise the original entity ?
Thanks in advance.
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I already plan to make Lareth the Beautiful a fire redheaded female, and the red mantis assassin who comes searching for the pcs after her untimely demise will either be her brother, lover or both ; )
Try for something campy but will freak the players out in this case, TWINS ! I like the Red Mantiss twist though.
Hmm, while I have not done any tables for xp, I was under the impression, not counting side trecks and DM made encounters, that the adventure would end with the players hitting about level 10....
When I DM'd this using 2 ed rules the 5 member party hit level 10, but I had several sub plots involved.
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Sorry for the delay in replying -- it's been a CRAZY week at work. I'll try to answer some of the specific questions over the weekend. Here's a couple quickies:
For a good rundown on the ToEE computer game and some of those subplots, check out the online walkthrough here. The Hommlet and Nulb sections should give you some ideas.
As far as PC levels and Challenge ratings ...
When I did my conversion, I used the original module as a general guideline, but completely rebalanced the the encounters based on the expected CRs and XP and treasure guidelines from the DMG. After a couple of side treks in Hommlet (see the guide above) the party was 2nd level when they started the Moathouse, which was perfect and didn't need much tweaking after that.
The party was about Level 4 when they got to Nulb, where I added a lot of extra material, and probably level 6 when they first entered the Temple. That's where things got interesting -- there are some major differences in the rate of character advancement between 1E and 3E. Throwing 6th level characters against standard bugbears and 0-level human bandits is no fun, so I upped the levels/CRs of most of the Temple opposition to stay in line with the characters' level.
Standard bugbears became Bugbear Ftr 2/Rog 1's, for example, and I gave the bandits additional levels in Warrior or Fighter. I added templates and hit dice and in some cases subbed in entirely different monsters. I also added treasure appropriate for the encounter levels.
I'll have to check my outline when I get home, but I think most of the elemental head priests ended up between 8th and 12th level, and Hedrick and some of the other end-game baddies probably would have ended up at around 16th if the campaign had made it that far. The party didn't make it to the elemental nodes, but I was expecting the campaign to wrap somewhere around 17th or 18th level, so I could have used a version of Zuggtmoy pretty close to her stats from Dungeon or Fiendish Codex I.
I had a longish reply but I think I lost the post !
But thanks nonetheless for your reply and the link which I will check tribeof1.
What can i bribe you for to get your outline ;-)
What extra material did you use for Nulb ? I just picked up the Second Darkness companion; I wish I could just use Riddleport as Nulb but that would be a very tough fit for the rest of the campaign.
Here is a very quick re type of what I lost on my post
I not worried about the moathouse, I'm setting the campaign to start at winter's end and the frogs will have just come out of hibernation and are hungry ! I'm making zero level bandits level 1 warriors and Lereth a female and giving her 1 level in fighter and adding 1 level in cleric. I still need to figure out how explain for zombies there [one of which I think I will make a missing village person] and I need to figure out who Lareth is a cleric of.
Treasure appropriate to CR is not a big worry for me but I would like more flavored treasure, such as the gnome's ring in the moathouse.
Was Zuggtamoy a trapped aspect or the 'real deal' in your campaign ?
Please keep those ideas coming !
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What can i bribe you for to get your outline ;-)
I think I still have my notes in a Word document on my home computer. I'll see if I can find them and post them up on Google Docs. In the meantime, I found an old thread on the WotC boards where I talked about the conversion in some detail. You can find it here.
(Darth Lithp is me).There's a link in that thread to a short, free module I used as an introduction to the campaign. It's worth checking out as a way to get the characters together and give them some early xp. Also, a cleaned-up version of my notes for Hommlet and the above-ground portion of the Moathouse is on Google Docs here.
My other notes aren't quite as nice, but I'll see if I can't find them and post them, too -- I'm not sure if they include the underground portions of the Moathouse, but they do include a side trek to Emridy Meadows, various quests in Nulb and the first two dungeon levels.
I still need to figure out how explain for zombies there [one of which I think I will make a missing village person] and I need to figure out who Lareth is a cleric of.
I like your ideas for Lareth. As far as Lareth's patron, keep in mind that in the original module Lareth is something of a freelancer -- he's not a worshipper of any of the lords of elemental evil, but instead a devotee of Lolth (who at the time was a demon lord, not yet a goddess) essentially working as a mercenary. Norgorber or Urgathoa would both work, I think, or you could go with one of the demon lords listed in the PCCS -- maybe Nocticula, Socothbenoth (hehe) or Shax?
As for the undead -- remember that Lareth, a cleric 5, can cast animate dead. One thing I did was have Lareth go through and animate dead minions as Zombies whenever the party retreated from the Moathouse to rest. So they got to fight the giant snake, the ogre and several bandits not once, but twice ;) This works even better if Lareth worships Urgathoa, although some of the other options are just as appealing.
Was Zuggtamoy a trapped aspect or the 'real deal' in your campaign ?
I honestly don't remember. I'd probably go with a powerful aspect, maybe the only one she has, that represents a significant portion of her power. She'd be seriously weakened if killed on the prime, but not finished.
I'm sorry tribeof1 but I started school and got busy all of a sudden, I plan to read all of your notes this weekend THANK YOU !
I'm sure I'll have questions then : )
edit
I took a peek and as lilith says 'squee'
No problem. I'll check back periodically to see if I can help anymore.
Wow, just wow tribeof1 ! That was a *lot* of help, school is in full swing but i'll have a question or ten very soon : )
This question probobly could be definitively answered by Todd Stewart or James Jacobs; in Golarion, can singular fiends [demond lords, deamon overlords, arch dukes of perdition] grant cleric spells ? Can Elemental lords grant spells ?
Standard disclaimer: I'm subject to being overruled in these things by any of the Paizo crew if an idea of mine sucks. ;)
That said, several months after the question was asked:
Tentatively yes. If they want to or not is another matter entirely. And the actual source of the spells they grant would likewise be an open question (their power granted? their plane granting it through them as a focus? etc).
As for elemental lords, the very definition of that term w/ respect to Golarion's inner planes is still in progress.
Creative Director
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This question probobly could be definitively answered by Todd Stewart or James Jacobs; in Golarion, can singular fiends [demond lords, deamon overlords, arch dukes of perdition] grant cleric spells ? Can Elemental lords grant spells ?Standard disclaimer: I'm subject to being overruled in these things by any of the Paizo crew if an idea of mine sucks. ;)
That said, several months after the question was asked:
Tentatively yes. If they want to or not is another matter entirely. And the actual source of the spells they grant would likewise be an open question (their power granted? their plane granting it through them as a focus? etc).
As for elemental lords, the very definition of that term w/ respect to Golarion's inner planes is still in progress.
Yes; demon lords, elemetnal lords, arch devils, and all them can indeed grant cleric spells. They're all demigods, and that (or being a full god) is all you need to be able to grant spells.
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For the end part, I wonder if Zuggtmoy should be re-kitted as an avatar of Cyth-V'sug, or perhaps an ascended high priestess of that Demon Lord, who has become sort of a 'fungal lich' or something...
This thread is brilliant. Please keep this up!
I'm taking notes!
Agreed!
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On a side note, I'd encourage you to add an entrance or two -.
Yes, I would strongly advise this as well.
I once had an exciting campaign with running first "Border Watch" and then "ToEE", which came to an halt after a few sessions of the players being locked inside, and unable to find a way out ... Despite the few that exist.
By the way ... I had them locked inside by dire crows ... who closed the entry door from outside ... MWHAHAHA !
The initial plan of my party was to make a quick recon inside, and then head back to Verbobonc to report to their superiors. i wanted it to last longer, and I expected them to find a way out, probably through the tower which is connected via the wizard's lair.
They never made it this far however.
so yes, add a few more tunnels leading outside, and also, why not one to the Underdark ?
Seems Kate C has disappeared ... I was hoping to hear more about her campaign.
Hello tribeof1 !!
I was very fortunate and was given a full scholarship to one of the top business schools in London. I'm at school and still work about twice a week so I had to put the actual playing of the campaign on a brief hiatus BUT I am still working on the updating of the old classic.
I have your notes on my laptap and rest assured when I'm on winter break and head back to New York I will most certainly be asking you and the Paizo board for more input. You advice and notes were invaluable.
Wish me luck, I'm my University's representaive in a city wide beauty pagent next week : P [actually these girls don't stand a chance.]
Wonder if I could get Nick Louge to come.
Yes; demon lords, elemetnal lords, arch devils, and all them can indeed grant cleric spells. They're all demigods, and that (or being a full god) is all you need to be able to grant spells.
Is there a difference between a demon lord and a demon prince, akin to say, a demi god and a lesser god ?
I am aware that in Golarion there are gods and demi gods and you have chosen not to break down and differentiate the powers further than that, but I was wondering if there was a mechanical rules difference besides and co existing with the flavour aspect of the distinction.
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Is there a difference between a demon lord and a demon prince, akin to say, a demi god and a lesser god ?
I am aware that in Golarion there are gods and demi gods and you have chosen not to break down and differentiate the powers further than that, but I was wondering if there was a mechanical rules difference besides and co existing with the flavour aspect of the distinction.
I am not James, but I would say that Demon Lords are rulers of one or more abyssal planes and have morphic power there ie. they can change the plane to their wishes. Demon Princes are powerful Demons who might rule a plane or part of a plane but do not have morphic powers.
Lords and Princes do not differ in prsonal power. In fact, some Princes might hold more personal Power than a Lord.All are able (and in most cases willing) to grant spells.
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Wish me luck, I'm my University's representaive in a city wide beauty pagent next week : P [actually these girls don't stand a chance.]
Wonder if I could get Nick Louge to come.
Nick Logue at a London beauty pagent, now that I would like to see! Or actually, I'd rather read about his, and your own, impressions of it!
Oh and thanks for the thread, old classics must live-on in new formats! Now where's my Against the Giants stuff? ...
I once considered attempting this conversion but decided to go with Shackled City instead. I was concerned about the game bogging down once inside the dungeon.
The suggestions here have all been great for reviving this classic. My biggest concern was that the game would begin to drag once the group got into the dungeon. Does anyone have any suggestions for keeping it dynamic? When I think of good dungeons I think of The Sunless Citadel. That was a dynamic dungeon that never got boring. I, nor my players, are fans of dungeon crawling so a good dungeon, or a small one, are always appreciated.
My first thought on this might be to decouple the dungeon. Take different levels and make them different dungeons in different places. Perhaps the areas controlled by the different factions are actually different locations. Just a thought.
I also recently considered using this as the basis of a 4E game. I have not made the leap to the new edition and I'm still not sure I will. But I thought, since there are not really any good adventures yet, Temple of Elemental Evil could serve as a perfect heroic tier campaign. You could then move on to Scourge of the Slave Lords for paragon and Queen of the Spiders for epic.
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...My first thought on this might be to decouple the dungeon. Take different levels and make them different dungeons in different places. Perhaps the areas controlled by the different factions are actually different locations. Just a thought.
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Thank you Eater.
My group are at 5th level and will not go near the Temple. This is a great idea for slipping the upper levels into other areas and breaking up the massive dungeon crawl.
Again Thanks.
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My biggest concern was that the game would begin to drag once the group got into the dungeon. Does anyone have any suggestions for keeping it dynamic?
It does, and mine did (with the campaign petering to a stop somewhere around Dungeon Level 3 when the PCs were ~ 12th level.
Several things I did helped, though:
Making the dungeon denizens for reactive -- ie, they come to each others aid, and move into areas that have been cleared/deserted -- while at the same time grouping the dungeon into cliques/clumps (ie. Earth Temple and pals, Fire Temple and pals, etc.) helps fight kick-in-the-door syndrome. After my PCs cleared out the Earth Temple, they started tackling the remaining cults (which, due to their rivalries were disinclined to assist each other) one after another, so at least their was a sense of completion each time they eliminated a head priest.
Along with this, I looked for places within the dungeon to stage interesting "set piece" battles to break up the routine. Generally, these occurred in the larger rooms, such as the various temple sanctuaries, the ghoul warrens on level 1, etc. Intervening battles tended to involve exploration and running combats as the group barreled through corridors and connected rooms while the inhabitants banded together.
In hindsight, the number one thing I would do differently, which I suggested above, is to introduce some sub-plots that periodically take the group out of the dungeons -- either to Hommlet, Nulb or Verbobonc (or their Pathfinder analogues) -- to face off with elemental cultists or others plotting there. That allows for a change of scenery, buying/selling loot, and an opportunity for more role-play and non-dungeon crawl sessions.
Plus, it's just cool to force the PCs to battle the temple cults on more than one front and forces some interesting choices. For example: the group finally defeats the head of the Earth Temple, and his journal notes that the Fire Priest recently sent a group of cultists and assassins to Kaer Maga to retrieve a powerful artifact or other McGuffin. Does the party press the advantage and push into the lower levels of the dungeon (risking the bad guys getting their hands on a powerful tool), or move to intercept the cultists, knowing that the temple forces will be able to regroup and strengthen their position by the time the group returns? You could introduce political intrigue, if, for example, the group must convince one of Korvosa's prominent nobles that his new mistress is in fact a succubus agent of the Air Temple sent to ensure Korvosa's military turns a blind eye to the Temple's activity.
And, something that I planned to do but didn't get around to: After the PCs clear out several of the sub-temples, Hedrick's likely to try to strike back with a few ambushes and traps. But why not hit the PCs where it hurts, by mounting a counter-offensive targeting Hommlet or their loved ones?
That kind of stuff will greatly lengthen the campaign (I don't think you'd have any trouble running from 1st to 20th before reaching Zuggtmoy) but would shake things up enough, and add enough variety to keep players' attention.
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I was very fortunate and was given a full scholarship to one of the top business schools in London. I'm at school and still work about twice a week so I had to put the actual playing of the campaign on a brief hiatus BUT I am still working on the updating of the old classic.
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Wish me luck, I'm my University's representaive in a city wide beauty pagent next week : P [actually these girls don't stand a chance.]Wonder if I could get Nick Louge to come.
Congratulations on the scholarship and school, and good on you for not letting gaming get in the way. Good luck with the competition -- I'm sure Logue could find some way to narrow the field in your favor ...
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I was very fortunate and was given a full scholarship to one of the top business schools in London. I'm at school and still work about twice a week so I had to put the actual playing of the campaign on a brief hiatus BUT I am still working on the updating of the old classic.I have your notes on my laptap and rest assured when I'm on winter break and head back to New York I will most certainly be asking you and the Paizo board for more input. You advice and notes were invaluable.
Wish me luck, I'm my University's representaive in a city wide beauty pagent next week : P [actually these girls don't stand a chance.]
Wonder if I could get Nick Louge to come.
Very cool about your scholarship in London Kate! Hope school is going well - and good luck in the beauty pagent - not that you'll need it apparently ;-)
Thank you tribeof1 and mothman ! Happy you still come to my little thread. [And gaming is not getting in the way of school, but drinking may be a little problem.]
I am not James, but I would say that Demon Lords are rulers of one or more abyssal planes and have morphic power there ie. they can change the plane to their wishes. Demon Princes are powerful Demons who might rule a plane or part of a plane but do not have morphic powers.
Lords and Princes do not differ in prsonal power. In fact, some Princes might hold more personal Power than a Lord.
All are able (and in most cases willing) to grant spells.
I was under the impression it was the other way around; demon princes such as Demogorgon and Orcus being more powerful than demon lords. It was they who had entire layers to themselves, while the lords contested for parts of the layers. There are of course exceptions, such as Fraz'urb luu who [like Graz'zt] was a trapped prince and is still reclaiming his lost fortunes; although in the chaos of the abyss some powerful lords may well call themselves 'prince'.
And with all the new abyssal lords in Second Darkness, I guess it's time to relearn the ropes.
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I was under the impression it was the other way around; demon princes such as Demogorgon and Orcus being more powerful than demon lords. It was they who had entire layers to themselves, while the lords contested for parts of the layers. There are of course exceptions, such as Fraz'urb luu who [like Graz'zt] was a trapped prince and is still reclaiming his lost fortunes; although in the chaos of the abyss some powerful lords may well call themselves 'prince'.
Your Abyss Fu is nearly as abyssmal as James, grasshopper.
Wait ..
::blink, blink::
that was intended to be a compliment.
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I was under the impression it was the other way around; demon princes such as Demogorgon and Orcus being more powerful than demon lords.
Ah, well, it seems I got it the other way round. You are correct with princes vs. lords.
But I still think that som lords might hold nough personal power to challange a prince in single combat. But as the princes have whole planes and endless followers their overall power i much greater.|
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For the end part, I wonder if Zuggtmoy should be re-kitted as an avatar of Cyth-V'sug, or perhaps an ascended high priestess of that Demon Lord, who has become sort of a 'fungal lich' or something...
Or try something that incorporates both foul lords.
Perhaps seeing an advantage in Zuggtmoy being trapped and thus strengthening their own respective positions, Cyth-V'sug and Juiblex actively seek to keep a portion of Zuggtmoy imprisoned in the prime and away from the abyss.
Since Zuggtmoy may very well have manifested a significant amount of her power in this avatar [not an aspect but an actual avatar] she is weakened to the point that her layer, contested by Juiblex, is nearly lost in the campaign waged by the Faceless lord.
As for Cyth-V'sug, he takes this time to build a stronger power base in the absence of the rival Zuggtmoy [by the events of Second Darkness decades later, he has all but assumed her role as one of the Twelve demon lords venerated by the Drow houses].
I have a note to add here, Juiblex was originally said to have been the ruler of the 528 th layer of the abyss by none other than gary gygax himself. But by late in 1 edition and perpetuated in 2 edition he was made 'kinsman' and ally to Zuggtamoy. By 3 ed they were rivals warring for dominance of the 222 nd layer, her layer of the abyss.
In my own campaign I explained it thusly; for reason known only to them, Juiblex and Zuggtmoy allied and became consorts and the Faceless lord divested a significant part of his power to the 222 nd layer of the abyss, home to fell Zuggtmoy [perhaps they had hopes of spawning a new kind of demon/slime/fungi hybrid].
But for whatever reasons, as things are bound to happen when two demons are involved, things soured [whispers of Zuggtmoy having a dalliance with Iuz] and the two former lovers openly warred on the other, with Juiblex becoming the master of the of the deeper parts of the 222 layer and Zuggtmoy retaining control of the surface. This remained the status quo until her weakening by the events in The Temple of Elemental Evil, and the layer nearly falling to Juiblex.
And unless James says otherwise, I think I'll give Cyth-V'sug the 528 th layer of the abyss to rule over, with the reasoning that he rose to his own prominence when the Faceless lord relocated to the Fungi mistress' layer.
Starting withWhere would you set The Temple of Elemenatl Evil on Golarion ?
What year is the Golarion Campaign set in, it seems there is no set date so as not to invalidate the APs but what year does Paizo assume it to be on Golarion currently ?
Thanks
Maybe the place where Tar-Baphon is held? Gallowspire
It would be fun to place the ToEE somewhere in the Worldwound as well.
There is also a place on the eastern continent Casmoran(sp?) that was the place where the terrasque was first seen. It is supposed to still spew out a demonic influence or two now and again.
Fwiw, the meaning of Demon Prince and Demon Lord have meant different things during different periods of D&D. Don't have the books at hand to confirm precisely, but Abyssal Lord was once reserved for an entity bound in symbiosis with an Abyssal Layer, while Abyssal Prince was reserved for those who had a domain upon a layer but didn't control the entire layer or have that sort of godlike bond to it. That was during 2e Planescape (either from Planes of Chaos, or Faces of Evil, I don't recall which).
1e I don't recall if there was ever any difference stated between the terms. For 3e IIRC, they never mentioned Abyssal Prince / Demon Prince to my knowledge, just demon lord. I could be wrong however, and expect to be corrected if I am. ;)