I’m right at the end of the Sea Wyvern’s Wake (in the Sargasso) and my players have said they feel underpowered and want more magic items and xp. I’ve heard mention of the Savage Tide AP being very difficult, but I haven’t seen solutions for helping the party without making things a cakewalk. I’m looking for good suggestions for magic items that I can add to the treasure without throwing the power balance too much to one character, having them relay heavily on one item or making combat too easy.
I have five players: a 1st level Rogue/6th level Monk, 7th level Wizard Evoker (going to be elementalist water), 6th level Swashbuckler, 7th level Rogue, 1st level Monk/5th level Cleric with Travel and Magic domain.
I have made sure they found every magic item presented in the adventures and added some minor ones. Everyone has a +1 weapon appropriate for them, +1 armor or equivalent, gone through lots of cure light wounds wands and a fair amount of potions. Several members get knocked out during every combat so they feel like they aren’t doing well. The cleric is complaining that all he gets to do during combat is heal damaged or fallen party members and isn’t contributing at all. He sees doing damage as contributing.
So I want to help out the party so the players are having fun, but I’m not sure what items to give, how powerful they should be, etc. without unintentionally making one character a powerhouse (if they get a +2 rapier of shocking the Swashbuckler with three attacks and tons of damage already will dominate every combat) or making combat too easy overall.
I have made suggestions to the group about employing more tactics in combat, such as flanking, taking down one opponent at a time and keeping the party together with only limited success.
Also, the granted power of the travel domain is causing some disagreements. Some players are saying that the power would activate as soon as the cleric is grappled or hindered in any way, magical or not (including swimming). I read it as magical effects cause the power to activate, negating the magical effect on that character for as many rounds as he has cleric levels. Someone mentioned there was a debate on the subject, but I never found it. Anyone know the official word or even what the general consensus is?
Thanks for any help.
Well the wording in the travel Domain could have been a little better. I'd say, from reading it, that it in fact kicks in immediately whenever it could be of benifit even if you don't want it to. Personally I'd strongly consider having it triggered as an immediate action.
As to power levels. Thats really between you and your players. What your describing sounds more or less like your goal. The fights are hard but the PCs are not dying. I'm not sure what to say for your cleric player - a good cleric often does end up keeping the party going. Thats their job really. Making the players more powerful strikes me as very concerning. I'm not sure how making the campaign easy makes it a better campaign considering that your not talking about TPKs
Personally my goal, as a DM can be summed up as:
"all but one of you are going to go up a level in the next 4-5 sessions. One of you is going to die." The point here is that your players are not necessarily underpowered. Some people play tougher games then this. A few play easier but I'm very concerned that you and your players will realize that fights were they don't feel threatened are generally not as exciting as one would think.
Honestly I'm cautious about listening to players when they say they want things easier. It can be true but my feeling is the players often just think they want things to be easier. Its sort of like a roller coaster, they honestly believe that they don't want to be on it but once you take them off and put them on the merry go round they find the excitement drains out of the game even though they can't quite put their finger on what the problem is.
I'd try and judge for yourself regarding their behaviour as it can be more indicative their their simple demands for more power. Are your players turtling? Do they seem demoralized? Do you have to prod them to get them to continue with the adventure. Do they flee in panic a tthe first sign of adversity?
These are usually the symptoms of playing in a world that the players think is to hard. If you don't have this I'd really consider sticking to your guns.
I may be able to help a little.
…the granted power of the travel domain is causing some disagreements. Some players are saying that the power would activate as soon as the cleric is grappled or hindered in any way, magical or not (including swimming). I read it as...
Unfortunately, this isn’t where I can be much help. I don’t have any experience with the Travel Domain. You are right, though, that there has been a lot of debate. Surly someone here can offer some advice.
I have five players: a 1st level Rogue/6th level Monk, 7th level Wizard Evoker (going to be elementalist water), 6th level Swashbuckler, 7th level Rogue, 1st level Monk/5th level Cleric with Travel and Magic domain.
Let’s look at your party mix, first. It IS balanced, but not really the best mix.
Several members get knocked out during every combat …
Let me guess – The Rogue and the Wizard? Maybe the Monk? Yeah, that’s very bad. The fewer targets there are standing, the faster they die.
… so they feel like they aren’t doing well.
They’re probably not, as the following quote demonstrates:
I have made suggestions to the group about employing more tactics in combat, such as flanking, taking down one opponent at a time and keeping the party together with only limited success.
Are we seeing a trend yet? Your players presumably chose their characters and made their own development choices, and their fight like a 16th century infantry brigade. So how is this your fault or the fault of the AP? Wait, before you answer.
I have made sure they found every magic item presented in the adventures and added some minor ones. Everyone has a +1 weapon appropriate for them, +1 armor or equivalent, gone through lots of cure light wounds wands and a fair amount of potions.
I’m looking for good suggestions for magic items that I can add to the treasure without throwing the power balance too much to one character, having them relay heavily on one item or making combat too easy.
Don’t these two quotes seem to be in opposition? With all the leg-up you’ve already given them, you think you need to do more? You think you CAN without “making combat too easy?”
The cleric is complaining that all he gets to do during combat is heal damaged or fallen party members and isn’t contributing at all. He sees doing damage as contributing.
Well, yeah all he’s doing is healing. First, that’s his job! That’s what the Cleric is primarily for. Add to that the fact that you have an absence of beef in your party and that’s going to be one busy cleric. But, to the matter of contributing, you might point out that every round he keeps one of the other characters standing, that’s one more target for the baddies and one more round your party has to win the battle. (Of course, retreat IS always an option)
my players have said they feel underpowered and want more magic items and xp.
That sounds awfully cheeky to me. They ARE underpowered, but it’s not like that’s your fault. They want MORE magic items? You’ve already given them “every magic item presented in the adventures” plus. You say you’ve also given them “minor” items, but they seem pretty major to me. Plus, it sounds like you’ve tried to coach them on their tactics. What more IS there to do?
Oh, and how do you give them more XP if the combats are too difficult for them NOW?
I’m right at the end of the Sea Wyvern’s Wake (in the Sargasso) and I’ve heard mention of the Savage Tide AP being very difficult,
This is true. Maybe the coaching should have come at the beginning where you might have suggested that the monk choose something a little more hearty, or that the Cleric might choose different domains.
The way I see it, you really only have two choices: Beef them up (either by opening up the floodgates on magical treasure or by reducing the difficulty of encounters) or start the AP over again and let them choose a better mix. Actually, there is a third option, but it won’t have the desired result (having fun). That is, play it straight and let character die. Maybe they’ll learn something (both about tactics and party balance).
Actually, that could be a good compromise, now that I think about it. If a character gets killed, let the player create a new character (perhaps making a better choice) and introduce them as one of the passengers from the other ship or whatever.
All this blathering comes down to this: The problem is not in the AP or in what treasures you do or do not give them – the problem is in the characters and how they are being played.
sort of like a roller coaster, they honestly believe that they don't want to be on it but once you take them off and put them on the merry go round they find the excitement drains out of the game even though they can't quite put their finger on what the problem is.
Ooh, this is brilliant. I'm going to have to quote you at some point, I think.
The party mix and its tactics are definitely playing a role here: Paizo's APs reward cooperation/tactics and slaughter almost anything else.
More magic isn't going to help this.
While "the final solution" for one PC might work, it could also largely backfire. A party "cohort" more dedicated melee type to help balance things out might help, even if just in short term to indirectly point out to the players what they are missing (tactics/etc.)
Or, if they are not having fun, move on to a different campaign. Not ideal, but no reason to dredge on w/ something unfun.
Thanks for all the advice.
I really like Jeremy’s comment about a rollercoaster ride. That suggests to me another solution. Perhaps the adventure has been too much of the scary drop and not enough of the triumphant climb of a rollercoaster. Maybe I need to throw in a few battles where they do very well - almost “easy” battles - then go back to the adventure where it’s pretty hard again.
I could accomplish this by also giving them the extra magic items they want in the form of charged/limited use items. I had thought about adding some items a druid would have created like a moss healing potion flask that produces a cure moderate wounds potion every 24 hours, but the liquid turns bitter after an hour outside the container. Or a bag where you can put any seeds into it to create 8 goodberries after a day, with the same idea that they go bad after a few hours. These would help alleviate the cleric needing to always be the one healing and stabilizing people. I could add one use twigs that when snapped release a fine pollen that mimics the effect of the Good Hope spell. Side effect creates fertile farm ground in the same area. Also buffing potions like Bull’s Strength, Cat’s Grace, etc. I’m hoping this won’t open the floodgates per se, but assist a little during some of the tougher battles.
To answer some questions, the party still charges into battle and doesn’t seem to be overly scared to do anything. Though they often want to skip parts of the adventure because it seems dangerous, so I add other things in to keep the level and treasure correct – they left the Lotus Dragon treasure because they thought carrying it out might hamper their fighting ability.
We have been playing ST for over two years (every other week, evenings with very slow combat and lots of joking around) so I think the players are pretty attached to their characters to want to switch out. We’ve had one death (Swashbuckler bled out as the cleric thought he could finish up the fight and heal him later) and one character switch (the monk/cleric was a barbarian/cleric that didn’t like the authority in Sasserine, so thought it best to play another character). Oddly the toughest character (Swashbuckler with a lot of hit points, normally 24 AC with combat expertise and three attacks a round applying strength and intelligence bonus damage) says that if he dies again he wants to play a character that takes a level in all the classes so he can get some prestige class.
I think we are all still having fun, but I think they feel a little like second rate heroes since they have to bring at least two members back from negative hp after every battle. (Often actually the cleric as he is often in the front lines fighting.) And NPCs die off pretty quickly when they are around. I keep a summary of the crew members and passengers on a white board (description, relationship with the PCs, role on the ship, etc.) and cross off those who die. Probably not the most uplifting DM tool now that I think about it.
The points on party mix and tactics are very true. Stressing improvements in those areas may help the players have fun and keep the characters they are enjoying.
Thanks again for the advice.
I still think you're being an enabler. Your players will never learn anything if they never die.
I still think you're being an enabler. Your players will never learn anything if they never die.
Yeah, I can't argue with that. The advice has been helpful. Thanks.
as for the cleric "only healing during combat", that is a problem with more egotistical gaming style on the part of the other characters.
If everybody else, but especially the tank of a group take less damage (through higher AC and/or more circumspect style of play for example ), there is less need for the ) cleric/healer to help out everyone during the flurry of combat, and the healer himself having more time to try different actions.
This might also be helped through dealing out/employing magics adding charged boni to the front-rank characters like "false life", "aid", or say a "lesser vigour" spell at the beginning of combat.
in our current campaign t he healer actually never heals during combat, but freshens everyone up afterwards with the "healing Touch "reserve feat from Complete Champion and Vigour spells afterwards.
One does in fact have to remember that healing in combat is not an absolute requirement to be fulfilled by the cleric, but a style of playing the cleric. Avoiding damage - IMHO - is every characters own duty first and foremost.
So, your players are wrong... not for their interpretation, which was perfectly reasonable, but for disagreeing with the DM on a legitimate call.
Here, here! This is the tally. "Because I said so" cut thought a lot of grot.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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The way I see it you have a skirmish heavy group with one dedicated blaster. 2 monks, a rogue, and a swashbuckler are not going to be slaughtering the challenges the STAP throws out. They have to pick it to death, especially after Here there be Monsters! I would use Olangru as a real wake up call that you're not in Kansas anymore kiddies. Demons are here to kill you and you need to cowboy up.
As for minor magic that'll help in the healing department, look into the Magic Item Compendium and the Healing Belt
generally speaking - looking at the group's composition, it is far from ideal (but what group ever is ?) for the STAP, and the players will over time pay the price for that - with increased difficulty of the encounters, and I daresay, some inevitable character deaths - the baboon mob in the Hidden Temple immediately springs to mind as something that will really trouble them. As will most of the oozes in the AP.
COBI will be another veritable slaughterfest (IMHO) if they make it that far in the present composition....
Besides adding some healing items - the ones from the MIC were mentioned already - perhaps take a look at the orb of mental restoration and its "physical" counterpart to deal with the inevitable ability damage attacks - consider redesigning some of the encounters to be more managble for your group, if "fun" is your priority in gaming. if you intend to emphasise the "challenge" aspect though.... well....