So... unless you burn feats to get them, you never gain any more skills after first level? Or am I missing the part that says you get more?
Basically the skills you take from your class are the skills you get throughout the course of your career. Skill Training and the various multiclassing feats are the only current methods to get training in new skills.
However, training mainly just grants a +5 bonus. There are currently only two applications of a skill that require actual training: one is in Acrobatics and the other is the identify magic item trait of Arcana. Otherwise, anything goes.
The upside is that Skill Training is pretty darn useful, thanks to skill challenges. I've taken both Skill Focus and Skill Training on two different characters just to get some extra oomph out of some skills. Its really the first time I've browsed the feats and thought, "damn, I really wanna take those two!"
Otherwise, its not much different than how I'm sure a lot of people did in in 3rd Edition, maxing out a set amount of skills and continuing to ramp them up each level. The main difference is that even if you arent trained in a skill, you still have a reasonable chance of successfully using it.
Otherwise, its not much different than how I'm sure a lot of people did in in 3rd Edition, maxing out a set amount of skills and continuing to ramp them up each level. The main difference is that even if you arent trained in a skill, you still have a reasonable chance of successfully using it.
This is not really my understanding of how this works. Or possibly you are saying the same thing as I am but if so I don't feel its coming across.
Your skills are 1/2 your level+any relevant ability modifier+ add 5 if you have training in the skill+ add or subtract any specific penalties that might be in effect at the moment such as from a power or due to wearing heavy armour.
There is no such thing as a skill you can't do. If your 10th level then your base in every skill would be +5 just from your level. You can't really max out specific skills because you don't get skill points to 'spend'. You'll be better in some skills then others because of your ability modifiers (or occasionally penalties) and because you have skill training in a few of them but your not maxing out a specific skill really as thats not possible. The best you can do is to spend a feat and pick up skill training in a new skill or choose to put an ability boost in a stat that helps the specific skill.
*Here* is an example of a higher level character sheet released by wizards.
What I meant was that often in 3rd Edition you would basically max out a set number of skills, and then add a rank every level. For example, lets take a human fighter with an Intelligence of 10. In 3rd Edition that would give you 12 skill points at first level, meaning that you could max out three skills at 4 ranks. Every new level, you'd just put a point in those three skills, keeping them consistently maxed out.
4th Edition follows this trend in that you get +1/2 your level to ALL skills, but a +5 on top of that to a trained skill, and an additional +3 on top of THAT if you take Skill Focus.
As I said before, this enables characters to at least have a snowball's chance in hell of attempting many skills, even if they are not trained. In 3rd Edition it was all to easy to be completely incapable of even bothering to try various skills if you didnt have it cranked up the entire time.
Currently the only to "trained-only" uses of a skill are Reduce Falling Damage (Acrobatics) and Detect Magic (Arcana). Otherwise you're free to do as you like.
What you have to keep in mind though is that a) +5 is a huge bonus, and b) the DCs scale as you level up. I mean compare the 1st level fighter to the first level wizard. Assuming the fighter has an Int of 10 and the Wizard an Int of 18, their Arcana modifiers are +0 and +9 respectively. Now let's pretend their at 10th level, and naturally the wizard now has an Int of 20. So the fighter gets a +5 to Arcana, but the wizard has a +15. I mean maybe the fighter can pull off some minor stuff, but the wizard can do hard DC stuff by just taking a 10. I mean the fighter can take training in Arcana and bump his Int by 2, but skill training and/or a good ability bonus is the only real way you can pull off skill checks reliably.
EDIT: Under Theivery it does say your DM might decide certain things can't be done unless trained. I'd rule that disabling traps and picking locks (and any other thing that might come up that requires implements) needs training to use.
EDIT: Under Theivery it does say your DM might decide certain things can't be done unless trained. I'd rule that disabling traps and picking locks (and any other thing that might come up that requires implements) needs training to use.
I would think so also.
It just seems expensive to have to burn a feat for every skill. Skills IMHO help with character diversity.
It just seems expensive to have to burn a feat for every skill. Skills IMHO help with character diversity.
Feats are a lot more prevalent in 4th Edition and aren't nearly as powerful which means "skill" feats have caught up in power to the others.
Then again, it of course all depends on the style of game your DM is running. A campaign that uses lots of skill challenges will get more for the money with skill feats. A campaign with mostly combat might not so much.
Skills are also more powerful, and many skills are now much more likely to get used, so the Skill Focus/Training feats are more powerful.
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I have a question for those who already play the pragon and epic tiers:
How does the trained/skill focused PC with the right Stats compare to th untrained PC?
Lets say we have a 20th Rogue Dex 20 and a 20th Cleric Dex 10. Rogue is trained in thievery an took Skill Focus.
Rogue has: 10 + 5 + 5 +3 = 23
Cleric has: 10 = 10
How do I set DCs for a lock?
Either it is too easy for the Rogue or too hard for the Cleric.
Also, The feat Jack of All Trades is a good buy. Its like being half (5/2=2.5 so 2 rounded down)trained in every skill your not trained in. Since each class gets 4 or 5 skills out of the gate (not including racial bonus) it really packs a punch for your other skills(i think there are seventeen. Basically you get +24 worth of bonuses in skills at least for one feat)
I have a question for those who already play the pragon and epic tiers:
How does the trained/skill focused PC with the right Stats compare to th untrained PC?
Lets say we have a 20th Rogue Dex 20 and a 20th Cleric Dex 10. Rogue is trained in thievery an took Skill Focus.
Rogue has: 10 + 5 + 5 +3 = 23
Cleric has: 10 = 10How do I set DCs for a lock?
Either it is too easy for the Rogue or too hard for the Cleric.
Normally, I would expect the difference to be about 8-10 points, assuming that the opposing PC has an average stat and is not trained in it (+5 for training, and +3 to +5 more for the ability score). If the character also took Skill Focus, well, we get around 11 to 13 points.
This isnt nearly as big of a gap as in 3rd Edition, where I would expect the difference to be on average around 13 points, just counting skill ranks (13 being the cap for an 11th-level character). If you factor in the ability score and possible Skill Focus, you can count on a difference of around 19-20 points.I would set the DC for locks and traps using the guidelines in the PH. For the paragon tier, this is 30. Yeah, the rogue can make it on a 7 or better, but that really should be her reward for spending a feat on it (also, a lock shouldnt grind the adventure to a halt anyway).
As for the cleric, disarming traps and locks isnt her role, but if he wants to contribute to doing so, he could easily take Sneak of Shadows for both the encounter sneak attack power and skill training in Thievery. Thats not bad for a feat, and puts him on better ground. The downside is that without a Dex mod, he needs a 15 to beat the typical lock DC. Of course, he could spend Skill Focus and drop the minimum roll to a meager 12 or better.
Doing this effectively reduces the "bonus gap" to 5 points, which isnt so bad.
If the cleric wants to be more rogue-like, or wants to be able to do those things from the get-go, he really should invest in those things from the start. If he worships a god of thievery, or something, allowing him to take Thievery as a trained skill at 1st-level isnt a bad idea, either. Also, I'd recommend investing a little bit in Dex.
Skills IMHO help with character diversity.
Funny you should say that.