I knnow this power source is a bit aways, but a look at the Swordmage powers brought up some interesting concepts.
One of the things that Wotc said they were doing away with was having things just to fill space. Like if there is a fire type demon then thier should be an ice type too.
Does this mean that each power source will get a character class for each role? Or do you think that they will only put out character classes that add to the game?
Lets look at Monk class. Many people say that the monk will most likely be a striker.
Monk
At a glance, the player with a 3E monk might think that he’s out of luck until the 4E monk releases—there’s no unarmored, unarmed melee fighter option anywhere in the Player’s Handbook. However, with your DM’s permission you can create a martial-arts striker who captures much of the monk’s style by following this process:
Choose the two-blade ranger build (p104). (Don’t worry, this will make sense in a minute.)
Give up your leather and hide armor proficiencies, gaining a +3 bonus to AC when wearing no armor or cloth armor. You’re now only a point behind the normal ranger’s AC.
Gain a +2 bonus to Will defense (in addition to the ranger’s normal defense bonuses).
Replace Dungeoneering and Nature on your class skill list with Arcana, Diplomacy, Insight, and Religion. Choose five trained skills from your class list.
Give up your martial weapon proficiencies. Grant your unarmed strike a +3 proficiency bonus, increase the damage to 1d8, and add the off-hand property. Now you’re wielding two melee weapons that are as good as the martial melee options available to the ranger.
Rename Hunter’s Quarry as Monastic Battle Focus, and lose the Prime Shot class feature. (You thought you were getting that +2 bonus to Will for free, didn’t you?)
Focus on mobility-oriented powers, particularly those that reward a high Wisdom score (such as evasive strike, yield ground, and weave through the fray). As desired, you can rename those powers with a flavor that befits your monkish heritage (peerless balance of the crane instead of fox’s cunning, for example).
Pick up feats to recreate other 3E monk class features—Evasion, Fleet-Footed, Long Jumper—and use multiclass feats (p209) to replicate the supernatural features. For example, the warlock has several teleportation powers reminiscent of abundant step.
This doesn’t faithfully recreate every element of the 3E monk, but it’s definitely a reasonable stopgap if you’re really committed to sticking with the character. Feel free to experiment with additional tweaks, and by all means please share your results on the D&D message boards!
Yet Mike Mearls confirmed that a monk will do more than grab a guy. He suggested something like "grappling".
Q: What happened with Grapple?
A: They streamlined it by kicking it and saying “don’t come back”. Mearls read an article on ENWorld about the black box theory: throw in stuff in one end, result comes out. You don’t know what’s going on inside. For grapple, the end result is you have a guy held who can’t move. 3e was not a black box, it showed each step. Grab (as it is now called) is just to stop somebody from moving, not a full-on wrestling system. You’re just trying to stop someone moving. Get the intent, then support it. The monk will be able to take grappling powers.
So what do you think the 4e monk will end up as? A Striker with a side of Defender?
What about other classes that could presumably use the Ki Power Source such as classes like a ninja? What do you imagine a Ki leader being like?
I would love to know your thoughts.
Well there's two questions here. One is what is he going to be, and the other is what I would make him. I'd make him a controller. Most of his attacks would be area attacks, roundhouse leg sweeps that knock down all adjacent badguys, throwing badguys into other badguys to knock them all prone, moving around and moving badguys around. He'd have abilities to disarm guys and spin around them to any unoccupied adjacent space. I like the idea of a controller type where it's less about Invoked Devestation, and more about Bruce Lee jumping into the middle of a horde of badguys and just cleaning house.
He's...the One.
Well, to settle things off the bat, the devs have said pretty conclusively that they won't simply be filling in a Source/Role matrix for designing classes. A Martial Controller, frex, was given as something we might never see.
That said, I think Ki very well might hold the Monk. He makes a nice fit, and since lots of Monk abilities in 3E were a bit over the top for even 4E Martial abilities (speaking all languages, immunity to disease and again, teleportation, I'm looking at all you guys!) structuring him as Ki powered instead makes sense. I think the Ninja will likely pop up under Ki, and maybe the Shugenja or Wu-Jen, as well (those two, less sure of).
I think a Monk will probably be primarily a Striker, with maybe a touch of Defender or Controller. Ninja seems like a pretty good Ki Striker as well.
Samurais could be redone as a non-sucky Ki Defender, with some cool shout based area affects. If Wu-Jen or Shugenja carry over into Ki something or others, I'd think one a Ki Controller, one a Ki Leader.
Hmm, five classes. One of each role, and two Strikers with different flavor. Not a bad lineup.
(Honestly, of all the Sources, I think Elemental will be the strangest. The others, I can think up a few classes off the top of my head, but those guys? Blanks, mostly.)
Cheers! :)
I think the Ki power source offers a lot of room for you to be comfy with.
With the wide breath of kung fu movies out there and anime there is a huge inspirational resource for the Ki power source.
Ki Defender - Something like deflect ranged attacks (Like Deflect arrows), or even abilities likee jet li and jackie chan martial arts. Things like Naruto could even have a positive influence on this with the taijustsu's like Lion's Combo.
Ki Striker- So many goodies its hard to list them all. I think the monk might fit in here as the Two weapon ranger style of monk, with the Ninja being more a cross between the rogue/ranged ranger, and warlock.
Ki Controller - I am seeing Naruto's Genjutsu users all over this. They could make a fantastic illusion class here as something other than arcane.
Ki Leader- I could see the Samurai having a place here, but how would you make him different than the warlord? The other person I really see here is people like Tsunade or Sakura from Naruto.
You've sparked an idea here Az. Maybe we're looking at this from the entirely wrong perspective.
We know Enchantment/Charm type effects were rolled back from the Wizard to move to the Psion. We know Necromancy/Illusion type effects were treated similarly for the eventual Necromancer/Illusionist (and I currently bank on them being Shadow sourced). Summoning was pulled from nearly everyone for some kind of Summoning class ... who knows where that's going to show up?
So what kind of Powers would Ki sourced classes focus on? I'm thinking self-buffs, with some illusion thrown in. Maybe minor terrain control.
What does Ki Power inspire in you?
(Honestly, of all the Sources, I think Elemental will be the strangest. The others, I can think up a few classes off the top of my head, but those guys? Blanks, mostly.)
Honestly that's kind of how I feel about controllers in 4e. The definition seems so limiting that they pretty much have to be wizards. Unarmored guy sending ranged effects downfield to affect multiple targets. Yep. That's a wizard. I like the idea that controllers just generally target groups and make them do things they probably wouldn't choose to do by limiting their options.
Yeah, though, elemental users are rough. The problem with that as a power source is that so many folks already use elemental flavored stuff that it'd be hard to keep them from overlapping with other classes. If he's an elemental energy chucker, then how is he that different from a wizard. If he is an elemental fighter with auras or whatever, then he seems like he'll overlap with the swordmage. It's hard to think of a class that would feel like a pure elementalist and not just a different flavored spin on another class.
I love the ideas for samurai and ninjas. I just hope the developers stick to their guns about not copy-pasting real world stuff into D&D all the time. I like that they're pushing toward a fresh kind of fantasy rather than some derivative of real world history. That said, you fill a town with monks, wu jen, shugenjas, samurai, and ninjas and try telling me you aren't going to get some kind of fantasy wuxia version of Asia.
Well there's two questions here. One is what is he going to be, and the other is what I would make him. I'd make him a controller. Most of his attacks would be area attacks, roundhouse leg sweeps that knock down all adjacent badguys, throwing badguys into other badguys to knock them all prone, moving around and moving badguys around. He'd have abilities to disarm guys and spin around them to any unoccupied adjacent space. I like the idea of a controller type where it's less about Invoked Devestation, and more about Bruce Lee jumping into the middle of a horde of badguys and just cleaning house.
He's...the One.
Goddamn, I've always hated monks and you may have just enticed me into playing one with that description! Kudos!
(Honestly, of all the Sources, I think Elemental will be the strangest. The others, I can think up a few classes off the top of my head, but those guys? Blanks, mostly.)Honestly that's kind of how I feel about controllers in 4e. The definition seems so limiting that they pretty much have to be wizards. Unarmored guy sending ranged effects downfield to affect multiple targets. Yep. That's a wizard. I like the idea that controllers just generally target groups and make them do things they probably wouldn't choose to do by limiting their options.
Yeah, though, elemental users are rough. The problem with that as a power source is that so many folks already use elemental flavored stuff that it'd be hard to keep them from overlapping with other classes. If he's an elemental energy chucker, then how is he that different from a wizard. If he is an elemental fighter with auras or whatever, then he seems like he'll overlap with the swordmage. It's hard to think of a class that would feel like a pure elementalist and not just a different flavored spin on another class.
I love the ideas for samurai and ninjas. I just hope the developers stick to their guns about not copy-pasting real world stuff into D&D all the time. I like that they're pushing toward a fresh kind of fantasy rather than some derivative of real world history. That said, you fill a town with monks, wu jen, shugenjas, samurai, and ninjas and try telling me you aren't going to get some kind of fantasy wuxia version of Asia.
Heh. Ki will have to try hard not to be pigeon-holed into 4E's version of Oriental Adventures. Of course, some people may desire exactly that out of Ki ... time will tell what happens. :)
It seems Controller is one of the harder roles to define really. I think "generalized AE specialist" is perhaps the best we can come up with for now, until we get some more details. I think it can be expanded nicely though ... maybe mass debuffs, at range or close up. Lots of forced area movement, or even heavier terrain affects than a Wizard gets (with less damage to compensate). With only Wizard to use as an example of a Controller, it's difficult to really get an idea of wherer the edges are.
The problem I personally have with Elemental sourced guys is I keep wanting to make them Nature-y. But they're not ... Nature dudes are Primal. So Elemental guys are ... ? I could see Summoning popping back up in the Elemental Source but uh ... what else?
It seems Controller is one of the harder roles to define really. I think "generalized AE specialist" is perhaps the best we can come up with for now, until we get some more details.
I really hate that controller's are only considered "AE specialist" right now. I was imagining someone with spells that do things like entangle, hold person, throw up walls, damage or alter terrain, charm, etc... Basically, a class for the more creative type. He may not be able to affect you directly with damage, but he can enable his party to gain and edge in combat.
I've always hated monks and you may have just enticed me into playing one with that description! Kudos!
I've always felt great swells of pity for the monk. I love the idea, but until 4e it's never really been something that the rules were able to handle without making them totally work off their own system. Hopefully the new monk will be able to do the stuff they should have always been able to do. I'm really excited. I hope we get a brand new monk class that can do all the chop-socky stuff I love. That said, if the modded ranger is any indication of what we have to expect, I think the 4e monk may be much less than I hope for.
I really hate that controller's are only considered "AE specialist" right now. I was imagining someone with spells that do things like entangle, hold person, throw up walls, damage or alter terrain, charm, etc... Basically, a class for the more creative type. He may not be able to affect you directly with damage, but he can enable his party to gain and edge in combat.
Amen brother!
You've sparked an idea here Az. Maybe we're looking at this from the entirely wrong perspective.
We know Enchantment/Charm type effects were rolled back from the Wizard to move to the Psion. We know Necromancy/Illusion type effects were treated similarly for the eventual Necromancer/Illusionist (and I currently bank on them being Shadow sourced). Summoning was pulled from nearly everyone for some kind of Summoning class ... who knows where that's going to show up?
So what kind of Powers would Ki sourced classes focus on? I'm thinking self-buffs, with some illusion thrown in. Maybe minor terrain control.
What does Ki Power inspire in you?
Ki or Qi inspires a lot in me. If you see Ki as the life force you can pull anything off really. I think Ki in the D&D mythos fits right into the "Power Pie" as something both Martial, and Divine. I think its ok for power sources to over lap some (they need to so that you can still end up with a+b=c with a+d=c as well).
I've watch numerous animes who use this as a reference. From Full Metal Alchemist, Ruoroni Kenshin, Buso Renkin, Naruto, Soul Eater, Avatar, and many many more.
You want your guy to jump high? Thats ki
You want to deliver a deadly attack like Quivering Palm? That's ki
Do you want to have an enemy feel like he has gone through 365 days worth of torture? Thats ki too.
Want to protect your allies from demons? Draw some letters on their armor for protection.
It seems Controller is one of the harder roles to define really. I think "generalized AE specialist" is perhaps the best we can come up with for now, until we get some more details.
I really hate that controller's are only considered "AE specialist" right now. I was imagining someone with spells that do things like entangle, hold person, throw up walls, damage or alter terrain, charm, etc... Basically, a class for the more creative type. He may not be able to affect you directly with damage, but he can enable his party to gain and edge in combat.
Controllers are for Elemental will most like be the Sorceror. You take the 2e Wild Mage mix with 3e sorceror and add a dash of "bending" from avatar and you get an elemental controller.
For example a "bending" type of ability would be to raise walls of an elemental nature (like ice, flame, wind, or earth) depending on your speciality.
Lets get elemental
Deedlit from Record of the Lodoss wars - Eladrin Elemental Defender.
What does ki say to me? Sumo wrestler!
It seems Controller is one of the harder roles to define really. I think "generalized AE specialist" is perhaps the best we can come up with for now, until we get some more details.I really hate that controller's are only considered "AE specialist" right now. I was imagining someone with spells that do things like entangle, hold person, throw up walls, damage or alter terrain, charm, etc... Basically, a class for the more creative type. He may not be able to affect you directly with damage, but he can enable his party to gain and edge in combat.
I'm with you guys on this. I think the next Controller we see will be a very enlightening look into where WotC is planning on taking this idea ...
Az, I never watched Airbender, but I have seen Lodoss War. I'll have to think on that. Remember though, the devs have said they're trying to move away from the classical Greek four. So thoughts on Element guys shouldn't focus on just Air/Water/Earth/Fire.
It's pretty far out, but anyone has speculation on what we'll see in PHB III? I'd think Psionics for sure ... any more Arcane/Divine/Martial/Primal? Or will it be all new Sources by then?
Ki or Qi inspires a lot in me. If you see Ki as the life force you can pull anything off really. I think Ki in the D&D mythos fits right into the "Power Pie" as something both Martial, and Divine. I think its ok for power sources to over lap some (they need to so that you can still end up with a+b=c with a+d=c as well).
I've watch numerous animes who use this as a reference. From Full Metal Alchemist, Ruoroni Kenshin, Buso Renkin, Naruto, Soul Eater, Avatar, and many many more.
You want your guy to jump high? Thats ki
You want to deliver a deadly attack like Quivering Palm? That's ki
Do you want to have an enemy feel like he has gone through 365 days worth of torture? Thats ki too.
Want to protect your allies from demons? Draw some letters on their armor for protection.
We have to be careful though. Arcane could be used to inspire pretty much anything too. But as my post noted, several different types of effects were mostly culled from Arcane for other sources (enchantments for Psionic, illusion/necromancy presumably for Shadow). Could anything be explained by Ki? Surely.
But the trick is deducing what the devs will explain using Ki. ;)
What does ki say to me? Sumo wrestler!
Hehe. They'd definitely need 100-Hand Slap as an Encounter or Daily. :P
I agree with Grimcleaver that a monk would make a very neat melee based controller. It would totally fit the whole martial arts theme and would mix well with 4e's powers, too. I can easily see the monk as a controller, or as a striker, though as a defender not as much.
Elements play a large part of the D&D cosmology. In 4th it is a bit different.
I think they would go for Thunder, Ice, Fire, and Force as the basic elemental types with radiant or necrotic rounding it off.
How this differes from Primal is that Primal is Chaotic and Nature-esque.
But the trick is deducing what the devs will explain using Ki. ;)
Didnt James Wyatt write the Oriental Adventures stuff for 3.x ?
I think we could use that as a sample of some of the stuff we will be seeing.
Just a quick idea
Utility Power Ki - Hardened Body
Your countless hours of training pay off. The blow that you just recieved has less effect becuase of it.
Immediate Interupt
Reduce the damage you just recieved by 1/2 your character level + you con modifier
Dance of 1000 Stinging Bees
As Blade Cascade
Dancing Tiger Strike
Imagine the ability of Nameless from Hero
I agree with Grimcleaver that a monk would make a very neat melee based controller. It would totally fit the whole martial arts theme and would mix well with 4e's powers, too. I can easily see the monk as a controller, or as a striker, though as a defender not as much.
Perhaps the Monk will be a Ki Striker with Controller leanings? Whirlwind Throws (think the Setting Sun ToB discipline) and such. Maybe some Distance Touch attacks.
I'm not saying Monks won't be Martial, but considering some of their outright supernatural abilities, I think they'll be slotted into a different Source.
I agree with Grimcleaver that a monk would make a very neat melee based controller. It would totally fit the whole martial arts theme and would mix well with 4e's powers, too. I can easily see the monk as a controller, or as a striker, though as a defender not as much.Perhaps the Monk will be a Ki Striker with Controller leanings? Whirlwind Throws (think the Setting Sun ToB discipline) and such. Maybe some Distance Touch attacks.
I'm not saying Monks won't be Martial, but considering some of their outright supernatural abilities, I think they'll be slotted into a different Source.
Do we know what Schools from ToB have been used yet? This is a very good indicator. Several thousand xp for style.
Do we know what Schools from ToB have been used yet? This is a very good indicator. Several thousand xp for style.
Warlords seem to have killed White Raven and taken his stuff. (Hell, some of their abilities still have White Raven in them!)
There is the Crusader only one (don't remember the name) that seems to have flavored a lot of Paladin abilities. (It had Defender-y style stuff, and could do things like heal you when you beat on people).
That's about it, to be honest. There is the dual-wielding animalistic one that MAYBE influenced Rangers, but I don't see too much resemblance.
I definitely don't see any of the sneaky shadow discipline (ok, MAYBE Rogue) or the fire sword guy discipline. Off the top of my head that leaves Diamond Mind (which was kinda like faking your enemy out); another one about hitting things really hard, which I guess might have bled into Fighters; and Setting Sun, which was all about throwing people around.
Someone who actually has ToB on them could likely provide a much better list than I just did though! :)
Do we know what Schools from ToB have been used yet? This is a very good indicator. Several thousand xp for style.
Warlords seem to have killed White Raven and taken his stuff. (Hell, some of their abilities still have White Raven in them!)
There is the Crusader only one (don't remember the name) that seems to have flavored a lot of Paladin abilities. (It had Defender-y style stuff, and could do things like heal you when you beat on people).
That's about it, to be honest. There is the dual-wielding animalistic one that MAYBE influenced Rangers, but I don't see too much resemblance.
I definitely don't see any of the sneaky shadow discipline (ok, MAYBE Rogue) or the fire sword guy discipline. Off the top of my head that leaves Diamond Mind (which was kinda like faking your enemy out); another one about hitting things really hard, which I guess might have bled into Fighters; and Setting Sun, which was all about throwing people around.
Someone who actually has ToB on them could likely provide a much better list than I just did though! :)
Desert Wind seems like a prime elemental defender power set.
Diamond mind is all ki leader and or striker. Think Shikamaru from Naruto.
Tiger Claw
Iron Defender
Stone Dragon
White Raven
Setting Sun
Shadow Something are the ones from memory
Desert Wind seems like a prime elemental defender power set.Diamond mind is all ki leader and or striker. Think Shikamaru from Naruto.
Tiger Claw
Iron Defender
Stone Dragon
White Raven
Setting Sun
Shadow Something are the ones from memory
Good memory!
Desert Wind could easily be used for Elemental Sourced characters. Interesting thought.
Tiger Claw seems like it'd fit in with a Primal Striker's repetoire (uh ... is that a word?)
Stone Dragon is the one I think maybe has bled into Fighter. A lot of Unstoppable type stuff if I remember right.
Iron Defender is kinda like the current Paladin.
White Raven is the current Warlord.
Which leaves us Setting Sun (which would make a cool Monk-ish Controller) and Shadow Whatever, which could be used for Shadow Sourced people, maybe.
Of course, I don't think EVERY discipline from ToB will influence 4E. We'll probably see some of them come back in some form, but not all. But who knows? Speculation can be fun that way. ;)
Taking another element from console rpgs, we might want to look at Sabin and Tifa's powers from the Final Fantasy Series.
For Instance- Sabin's hidden critical attack is called Tiger Break, where he charges one enemy with a flying knee kick, with a spirit image of a tiger's head surrounding him. His other powers such as Pummel, Aurabolt, Suplex, Fire Dance, Air Blade, Mantra, and Bum Rush all work well.
Tifa's Limit breaks could be Daily Powers
Level 1:
Beat Rush- Automatically activated. Tifa rushes at an enemy and punches them a few times.
Somersault- Tifa then somersaults into the air, kicking the enemy.
Level 2:
Waterkick- After Somersault, Tifa kicks the middle of the enemy and water comes up out of nowhere.
Meteodrive- After Waterkick, she picks up the enemy and slams them to the ground, wrestling style.
Level 3:
Dolphin Blow- For her 5th move, she uppercuts the enemy and a…dolphin, yes a dolphin appears.
Meteor Strike- Meteor Strike, in which Tifa picks up the enemy and throws them to the ground.
Level 4:
Final Heaven- Tifa’s final attack involves her creating a giant energy blast and firing it at all enemies.
ToB stuff
The Nine Schools are
Desert Wind -Speed Mobility, Blinding flurries of blows, quick charges, agile footwork, fire
Devoted Spirit- Faith Piety, purity of body and mind, bane and buffs
Diamond Mind- Quickness, Mind, Perception, tatical speed and action
Iron Heart- Absolute Mastery of the Sword, Balance, Skill
Setting Sun - Strength of Opponent Against him, throws, imitative strikes
Shadow Hand - Deception, misdirection, surprise
Stone Dragon- Strength, Endurance, Methodical and Relentless application of force to grind the enemy down
Tiger Claw - Instinct, unconcious reaction, animalistic, speed, bloodlust
White Raven - Cooperation, Teamwork, Leadership, Combination, and Coordination
So as previously stated, some of these have been used.
I think Desert Wind, Diamond Mind, Setting Sun, Some Shadowhand, Stone Draon, And Tiger claw remains open. I really see Tiger Clas going to Primal though.