I'm working on a monster and batting this around as a daily power:
Watery Grave (minor; daily)
Close burst 10; an unnatural water fills the lungs of the target, accelerating the drowning process; target is dazed (save ends). First failed save: target is dazed and weakened. Second failed save: target is dying. No healing surge can be spent while under this effect.
Any thoughts on that for a 5th level monster? On the one hand, it has the possibility of dire consequences, but on the other hands seems likely that the PCs are going to save. It may just be me, but it seems like the new saving throw system is geared towards the PCs making their saves.
What's the attack bonus of your power and what defense would it target?
I'm working on a monster and batting this around as a daily power:
Watery Grave (minor; daily)
Close burst 10; an unnatural water fills the lungs of the target, accelerating the drowning process; target is dazed (save ends). First failed save: target is dazed and weakened. Second failed save: target is dying. No healing surge can be spent while under this effect.
Any thoughts on that for a 5th level monster? On the one hand, it has the possibility of dire consequences, but on the other hands seems likely that the PCs are going to save. It may just be me, but it seems like the new saving throw system is geared towards the PCs making their saves.
Aside from what was already mentioned (which stat vs. which defense) and without digging out my books:
(1) Close burst 10 is freakin huge. Why so big?
(2) This is probably too dangerous for a mid-heroic tier power. Not only can it kill, but it hands out status effects like candy.
(3) Do monsters even get dailies? I didn't think so, but I could be wrong...
Regarding your thoughts on the save system as a whole: It seems like it is geared toward *everyone* making their saves more often than not (55%, to be exact). I haven't played enough 4E to say for sure if I think this is a good number.
+9 v. Fort.
I had it at 5 squares but that seemed pretty limited. I'll have to take another look. 4E really seems to weaken monsters relative to a party, so I'm having a hard time finding the balance. This monster doesn't have that many hit points (as per the DMG) or much else, so I'm trying to put in one fairly decent attack.
Your benchmark for a level 5 controller attack against a Defense other than AC is +17. So, this Watery Grave attack would read something like:
"Close burst 10; +17 vs. Fort; target is dazed (save ends). If the target fails one save, it is also weakened (save ends), and if the target fails a third save, it is reduced to 0 hit points. An affected creature cannot use a second wind or healing surges."
Basically, once the creature fails three saves it is dying and has to mill over three more saves before finally actually, well, dying. This isnt nearly as bad as an actual save-or-die ability found in 3rd Edition, and doesnt seem to be too dangerous, even at that range: there are various powers and whatnot that can affect or force another saving throw, assuming the monster manages to hit the target in the first place.
At 5th-level every character will have a +2 to Fortitude Defense not counting Constitution mods, bonuses from class, or racial mods. Its likely that the fighter types will have something around 16 for a Fortitude Defense, so this guy has about 50:50 chance of hitting them.
At any rate, dazed creatures will still get at least one action to hit the guy or activate a power to help shake it off, so I dont think its that bad.
Your benchmark for a level 5 controller attack against a Defense other than AC is +17. So, this Watery Grave attack would read something like:
"Close burst 10; +17 vs. Fort; target is dazed (save ends). If the target fails one save, it is also weakened (save ends), and if the target fails a third save, it is reduced to 0 hit points. An affected creature cannot use a second wind or healing surges."
Basically, once the creature fails three saves it is dying and has to mill over three more saves before finally actually, well, dying. This isnt nearly as bad as an actual save-or-die ability found in 3rd Edition, and doesnt seem to be too dangerous, even at that range: there are various powers and whatnot that can affect or force another saving throw, assuming the monster manages to hit the target in the first place.
At 5th-level every character will have a +2 to Fortitude Defense not counting Constitution mods, bonuses from class, or racial mods. Its likely that the fighter types will have something around 16 for a Fortitude Defense, so this guy has about 50:50 chance of hitting them.
At any rate, dazed creatures will still get at least one action to hit the guy or activate a power to help shake it off, so I dont think its that bad.
I'm confused by this. If the average level 5 fighter type has a 16 Fort defense, and the power has +17 vs fort, how is that a 50/50 miss change. Looks like a 95-5 hit chance to me, with only a one missing? I agree that the power looks reasonably balanced and rather interesting, but I don't get the math :)
I'm confused by this. If the average level 5 fighter type has a 16 Fort defense, and the power has +17 vs fort, how is that a 50/50 miss change. Looks like a 95-5 hit chance to me, with only a one missing? I agree that the power looks reasonably balanced and rather interesting, but I don't get the math :)
I think our anti friend is off by a power of 10. At least, that's my best guess without grabbing my DMG.
Cheers! :)
Wow, I totally screwed that math up. The only thing that I can THINK I was thinking was that it was only +7 to hit instead of +17. Oh well, its not going to stop me from making posts at darn near midnight! :-P
Aaanyway, seeing as I'm more awake and/or alert, if you flip to page 184 of the DMG (Creating Monsters), there is a table that gives you guidelines on where to set hit points, attack, bonuses, defenses, etc. Under the controller column it lists Attack vs. Other Defense, which is ACTUALLY only Level + 4, so a +9 is where to set the benchmark.
Going back to my estimated Fort Defense 16-ish dude, I remembered that I was also not counting on a neck slot item, which would bump it up to about a 50:50 shot for actual fighter types (or less depending on the bonus), but'll probably wreak havoc on the softer characters if they are caught in the blast.
Thanks everyone. Give me some things to think about. I may pull the power back to 6 squares instead of 10. Just running through it in my head the monster seems weak for a party, but that said I didn't set it up as a solo monster, so it is expected by the rules that there will be other monsters in the fight as well.
Thanks again!
If you have other monsters in the area, then its possible for this creature to kill them as well. You could change the attack so its a ranged burst, or perhaps to just target a single creature.
Another option is to grant it another attack method, such as suspending a creature in a sphere of water (grabbed and has to make Endurance checks, but can escape from it like any other grab by making an opposed skill check). This would allow the monster to "lockdown" someone, which is one method of controlling.
If you have other monsters in the area, then its possible for this creature to kill them as well. You could change the attack so its a ranged burst, or perhaps to just target a single creature.
Another option is to grant it another attack method, such as suspending a creature in a sphere of water (grabbed and has to make Endurance checks, but can escape from it like any other grab by making an opposed skill check). This would allow the monster to "lockdown" someone, which is one method of controlling.
Interesting idea, thank you.
I don't have the books in front of me, so let me ask this: can powers in 4E be defined as to only affect "enemies" within the burst, or does it have to affect all creatures per RAW?
I know that some powers will say "creatures" or "enemies". Its easy enough to just have your attack affect only things that the monster wants to hit, so thats also a pretty easy workaround.
If you have other monsters in the area, then its possible for this creature to kill them as well. You could change the attack so its a ranged burst, or perhaps to just target a single creature.
Another option is to grant it another attack method, such as suspending a creature in a sphere of water (grabbed and has to make Endurance checks, but can escape from it like any other grab by making an opposed skill check). This would allow the monster to "lockdown" someone, which is one method of controlling.Interesting idea, thank you.
I don't have the books in front of me, so let me ask this: can powers in 4E be defined as to only affect "enemies" within the burst, or does it have to affect all creatures per RAW?
Allies, enemies, and creatures are all specific keywords defined in the core books (I can't remember which one right now), so you could define it the way you want.
Thanks guy. This is great help!