I can be civil and polite about this so here goes ........
Just got done reading through the core books and the impression i get from them is very simple....it's written for "Monty Haul" players. Those of you who know what that actually means are the ones I'm writing to. If you are that type of player (or "gm") then 4th edition is a godsend and it's the "coolest" game ever made. If you are more the type that loves challenges and actual role-playing as opposed to roll-playing then 4th edition is the end of Mr. Gygax and Mr. Arneson's game.
I hope that doesn't offend anybody too much....all the bullcrap being spewed back and forth is very tiresome even if I can relate to some of the arguements being put forth. If you love it...go play it and talk amongst yourselves........if you hate it.....don't go play it and talk amongst yourselves.........leave each other alone and respect their views even if you disagree with it.......sorry :( didn't mean to preach :(
I can be civil and polite about this so here goes ........
Just got done reading through the core books and the impression i get from them is very simple....it's written for "Monty Haul" players. Those of you who know what that actually means are the ones I'm writing to.
OK, interesting.
Defend that statement. I certianly know what Monty Haul means. Why do you think 4E is more of a Monty Haul game then say 3.5?
'cause I honestly think 4E characters are weaker then 3.5 ones by mid levels. Your certianly getting a hell of a lot less magical gear.
When I think of Monty Haul I think of easy victories for obscene amounts of treasure - especially lots and lots of powerful magical gear.
Well Sebastian - looks like you were right about the green light.
Yer just loooookin' fer a fight, ain'tcha!!!
I can't say I was able to fully avoid Monty Haul campaigns when I first started playing, but I was 12. That was over 20 years ago and I've gotten pretty good at avoiding it since then, actually. They're not any fun. Without a challenge there's no satisfaction in victory and a reward that isn't earned is never appreciated.
4E might seem as though it was Monty Haul, but only after a cursory inspection. Once the game is played it's easy to see that the game is still challenging and that the PCs can quite easily be killed.
I think what the OP noticed was the fact that PCs begin their careers at a slightly higher relative level when compared to 3E. That's a little different than a Monty Haul campaign.
I think what the OP noticed was the fact that PCs begin their careers at a slightly higher relative level when compared to 3E. That's a little different than a Monty Haul campaign.
I think this is really tripping up a lot of posters. You see what a 1st level character is like and presume that a 2nd level character is twice that powerful which is totally untrue. If a 1st level character is the equivalent of a 5th level 3.5 character then a 3rd level character is equivalent to about a 6th level 3.5 character. You start strong but grow much slower then in 3.5.
I can be civil and polite about this so here goes ........
Just got done reading through the core books and the impression i get from them is very simple....it's written for "Monty Haul" players. Those of you who know what that actually means are the ones I'm writing to. If you are that type of player (or "gm") then 4th edition is a godsend and it's the "coolest" game ever made. If you are more the type that loves challenges and actual role-playing as opposed to roll-playing then 4th edition is the end of Mr. Gygax and Mr. Arneson's game.
Perhaps you meant to be civil and polite. Perhaps you're not aware about what may make these statements a little bothersome.
If I were to go over to the Pathfinder area and say, PFRPG is all about the Christmas Tree effect and I'm only writing to those who know what I'm talking about; if I were to say, Perhaps you feel PFRPG is a godsend and the "wickest" game ever; if i were to say that if you really like challenges and systems that don't butt into your roleplaying, as opposed to min/max games that support power players who like to find loopholes in the system to monopolize combat, then Pathfinder is the end of Mr. Gygax's game - wouldn't you and a host of others find these statements offensive, including the Paizo staff?
So why do people get surprised when we find such statements about 4e offensive?
I believe that Pathfinder is going to be a great game and I don't necessarily stand by the statements I made above. I believe 4e is a great game. I hope to play both games - but I too am getting sick of being pigeonholed as being a "type" of player because I like what I see in 4e.
i completely agree that by the time of 3.5 it was certainly out of hand and most assuredly the first time i looked at the playtest rules for the new pathfinder i went through the roof (in a bad way).......i apologise if my comments were seen as knocking on a certain type of player....and yes looking closer the power levels of 4th edition stay fairly consistent throughout so that a 20th level pc is not all that different from a 10th level pc.....that is not my "gripe" it's the fact it's harder than petrified snot to die at 1st level unless you throw monsters at the party that USED to be saved back until about 7th or 8th level.....
i guess in the end it's all in how you play the game that makes it "monty haul" or not........that point is well taken and I've been well put in my place :) I'm sure there will be new games that will be interesting just as i remember my first dnd game ever was VERY VERY "monty haul" .......my only point was the new rules seem to be geared toward the lose control quickly and throw up your hands in despair type of game.....ah well.......there i go again......time for me to stop before my foot ends up halfway down my throat :)
i completely agree that by the time of 3.5 it was certainly out of hand and most assuredly the first time i looked at the playtest rules for the new pathfinder i went through the roof (in a bad way).......i apologise if my comments were seen as knocking on a certain type of player....and yes looking closer the power levels of 4th edition stay fairly consistent throughout so that a 20th level pc is not all that different from a 10th level pc.....that is not my "gripe" it's the fact it's harder than petrified snot to die at 1st level unless you throw monsters at the party that USED to be saved back until about 7th or 8th level.....
i guess in the end it's all in how you play the game that makes it "monty haul" or not........that point is well taken and I've been well put in my place :) I'm sure there will be new games that will be interesting just as i remember my first dnd game ever was VERY VERY "monty haul" .......my only point was the new rules seem to be geared toward the lose control quickly and throw up your hands in despair type of game.....ah well.......there i go again......time for me to stop before my foot ends up halfway down my throat :)
I think you may be surprised. :) I know that I killed nearly all my players with an equal number of Kobolds the third encounter we had. PCs seem as though they start much more powerful than before but the monsters, even kobolds and goblins, are powerful too.
The thing that changed is that PCs can no longer die from one lucky roll or crit by the monsters. It takes a few rolls to kill them, or poor planning. My PCs thought they were tough stuff and didn't take the threat seriously.
So, yes, PCs are no longer subject to death from one lucky blow, but death is still very possible.
that is not my "gripe" it's the fact it's harder than petrified snot to die at 1st level unless you throw monsters at the party that USED to be saved back until about 7th or 8th level.....
In small numbers your probably right, furthermore 1st level characters are pretty powerful.
In fact PCs should keep this in mind when dealing with something like the town militia. Being 6th level does not make you capable of easily taking on the 10 1st level fighters in the town militia. Your just not that much stronger then them. Almost certianly not strong enough to take on 10 of them by yourself.
That said one of the core assumptions in 4E is that your facing off, usually, with a fair number of enemies. Your not going to fight 3 kobolds, you'll fight more like 8 or 9. Enough to be very dangerous to a 1st level party. The toughness works both ways as well. A player can't be laid low by a single lucky hit but the kobolds usually can't be taken down that way either.
I can be civil and polite about this so here goes ........
Just got done reading through the core books and the impression i get from them is very simple....it's written for "Monty Haul" players. Those of you who know what that actually means are the ones I'm writing to. If you are that type of player (or "gm") then 4th edition is a godsend and it's the "coolest" game ever made. If you are more the type that loves challenges and actual role-playing as opposed to roll-playing then 4th edition is the end of Mr. Gygax and Mr. Arneson's game.
What's the point of offending people, and then saying that "you don't want to offend people"?
If there is someone moderating this board, please remove this thread from existence, as it's specifically aimed not to talk about 4E but talk about 4E players.
There's nothing good that may come from this thread.
....it's written for "Monty Haul" players. Those of you who know what that actually means are the ones I'm writing to. If you are that type of player (or "gm") then 4th edition is a godsend and it's the "coolest" game ever made. If you are more the type that loves challenges and actual role-playing as opposed to roll-playing then 4th edition is the end of Mr. Gygax and Mr. Arneson's game.
OK, I'll take the bait...(gulp!)...
Actually, I think a Monty Haul game is indicative of a DM's playing style much more so than any rules system. My DMing style is a very gritty, real-world experience. I don't give away massive amounts of loot or magic, and if my players see an artifact they know it's a HUGE deal.
I don't see anything in the 4E rules that will prevent me from continuing to play that way. In fact, in our first two 4E game sessions, the role-playing has been much more vibrant than in our last 3.5 game. Heck, our second game session featured only 1 combat scene and close to 4 hours of PC-NPC interaction.
So, yeah, I really think it's up to the DM and not the rules system.
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.that is not my "gripe" it's the fact it's harder than petrified snot to die at 1st level unless you throw monsters at the party that USED to be saved back until about 7th or 8th level.
I can understand why it would seem this way. It is true that in one sense it is more difficult to kill a PC. If a party is coordinated and play well as a team it will be difficult. However, my experience has been that 4e can be unforgiving to the PC that takes a huge risk or makes a bad mistake.
While running Shadowhaunt the group's warlock stepped up into the front line to keep the skeletons from reaching the kids the party had freed. This was a noble and heroic act. Two skeleton hit her and she came within a couple points of dying. The cleric managed to heal her before she bled out but it was a very close call.
During H1 I have dropped a few PCs over the course of the fighting. One came very close to death. He missed two death saves and had only 2HP left before bleeding out. If the cleric had not healed him he could have died on either of the next two rounds.
my only point was the new rules seem to be geared toward the lose control quickly and throw up your hands in despair type of game.....ah well.......there i go again......time for me to stop before my foot ends up halfway down my throat :)
Actually, this statement doesn't bother me as much. There is nothing wrong with discussing things about the game you are unsure of - it's the generalizations about who plays the game and use of the word "coolest" as a 4e player's trope and how 4e is the death of D&D and anyone who plays it must not care about "true" D&D attitude that is troublesome. But feel free to criticize the game - nothing wrong with that. There's aspects about the game I don't care for either.
But now that you've said that the game seems designed for monty haul play and geared toward "the lose control quickly and throw up your hands in despair" gaming, can you point out specific details? What is it in the rules (or lacking in the rules) that makes you feel this way?
Ignore my last post, I didn't see that the OP apologized.