*air guitar*
August can't come fast enough!
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They were mentioned in PF#8, when will we see more of these Daemon Lords?The next time we'll see more is in the Hardcover.
Will Pathfinder's ArchDaemons, ArchDevils, and Demon Princes be statted up? I remember reading that you guys didn't intend to stat up true deities (and thank you for that), but you did stat up Achaekek for PF #9. I would love to see a Demonomicon style articles on the various Archfiends in the Pathfinder universe over time. Maybe that is something that could go into Pathfinder Companion? Anyway, just a random bit of rambling, but I would love having stats on some of these Fiend Lords in the Pathfinder Cosmology.
I'm hoping they'll be a little more unique than the aforementioned template. The template's not bad but...the Four Horesmen should be totally badass to the Nth degree.
I'm really liking the names of the four deacons of daemons, being named after the traditional Greek names of the four horsemen. Very very cool flavour for the daemons. I can't wait to see them in my game!
What exactly are those names? And are the Four Horsemen THE archfiends of the daemons or are there more of these boss types?
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What exactly are those names? And are the Four Horsemen THE archfiends of the daemons or are there more of these boss types?
There's the Leukodaemon for the Horseman of Pestilence (hippos leukos in Greek), the purrodaemon for Destruction (hippos purros), the meladaemons for Famine (hippos melas), and the thanadaemons for Death (hippos khloros, or thanatos). All very cool! I can't wait to see what the thanadaemon looks like (let alone the horsemen themselves)!
It seems like the Horsemen are the leaders of the daemons, but it could be otherwise.
Will Pathfinder's ArchDaemons, ArchDevils, and Demon Princes be statted up? I remember reading that you guys didn't intend to stat up true deities (and thank you for that), but you did stat up Achaekek for PF #9.
We'll be giving all of these guys a lot of love. As for stats, it won't be in the hardcover or the Gods and Magic book, but down the line we'll present stats for them as articles, adventures, or even book topics warrant. Just like Achaekek got his high CR madness spotlighted a few months back since he tied into the Red Mantis, if/when we do more with any of these fiends we'll definitely give you more details and all the rules to run them. Until then, the Campaign Setting book will have a good bit of cosmology stuff, and it turns out that there's a lot more out there then just crazy powerful fiends.
I would love to see a Demonomicon style articles on the various Archfiends in the Pathfinder universe over time. Maybe that is something that could go into Pathfinder Companion?
That does sound like it might be a good fit, doesn't it?
Will they bear any resemblance to the Four Horsemen templates in the Advanced Beastiary?
Not really any more so than Pazuzu resembles the fiendish template. Each of the Four Horsemen is a unique character and will get his own unique stats and abilities, just like a Demon Lord or Arch Devil. That being said, that template could be very useful for minions.
I'm really liking the names of the four deacons of daemons, being named after the traditional Greek names of the four horsemen. Very very cool flavour for the daemons. I can't wait to see them in my game!
Yay! That's the point! One of the most important things with deamons was giving them a new spin that is distinctive from devils and demons. I think we're starting to see that and its great that it seems to be going over well!
What exactly are those names? And are the Four Horsemen THE archfiends of the daemons or are there more of these boss types?There's the Leukodaemon for the Horseman of Pestilence (hippos leukos in Greek), the purrodaemon for Destruction (hippos purros), the meladaemons for Famine (hippos melas), and the thanadaemons for Death (hippos khloros, or thanatos). All very cool! I can't wait to see what the thanadaemon looks like (let alone the horsemen themselves)!
It seems like the Horsemen are the leaders of the daemons, but it could be otherwise.
Yup, those are where all the names came from. Why try and remake awesomeness that a few thousand years of mythology already does so so well?
The Horsemen are the leaders of Daemonkind, rulers not interested in bargaining, corruption, destruction, law, or chaos, but tyrants concerned only with death and the harvesting of mortal souls. Sure, there will be daemons who don't serve them, just like there are devils who don't serve Arch Devils and demons who don't serve a Demon Lord, but many do and each horseman even has his own elite (like the leukodaemon). The title "Horseman" is just that, by the way: a title. So expect lots of scheming, manipulation, and intrigue among deamon kind as others try to wrest the title from the current rulers.
*more air guitar*
Seriously, I wish I had something other than my enthusiasm and wallet to throw at this! Every time I try to think of a sensible comment, I just freak out on teh awesomeness. I am really excited by what I've seen so far.
Peace,
tfad
Creative Director
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Will Pathfinder's ArchDaemons, ArchDevils, and Demon Princes be statted up? I remember reading that you guys didn't intend to stat up true deities (and thank you for that), but you did stat up Achaekek for PF #9.
Ah... but Achaekek isn't a true deity. He's a demigod. That's the difference between true deities and demigods, really. Demigods get stat blocks and can be defeated by powerful mortals. True deities do not.
The vast majority of demon lords, archdevils, and the like are demigods, and they will eventually have stat blocks. Some of them, like Lamashtu or Asmodeus, are true gods, and therefore won't have stat blocks.
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The vast majority of demon lords, archdevils, and the like are demigods, and they will eventually have stat blocks. Some of them, like Lamashtu or Asmodeus, are true gods, and therefore won't have stat blocks.
I'm assuming Asmodeus is the same "Asmodeus" (in principle) as the one in the old first edition AD&D monster manual?
Its nice to see Paizo use these old-school villain names for their products.
Grazzt in SCAP, Demogorgon in Savage Tide, Kyuss in AoW, and now a temple to the devil lord of the 9!
I wasn't sure how any of these great iconic villains (such as Orcus - who by the way was always my favorite!!!) are covered under copyright law or how/who/what you as a 3rd Party publisher have access to use their likenesses in your products. Again, as an old-school game who started back in 82 with AD&D 1st edition - those villains have a lot of nostalgia with me (and many others of us).
Robert
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Clue me in on what that is...?Will they bear any resemblance to the Four Horsemenm templates in the Advanced Beastiary?They were mentioned in PF#8, when will we see more of these Daemon Lords?The next time we'll see more is in the Hardcover.
Advanced Beastiary. Not a bad little book. Has all sorts of templates that you can apply to your threats and bad guys (or good guys). I've gotten some nice use out of it in my STAP I'm running. Not a necessary purchase, but I'm happy I picked it up! A solid 4 stars for flavor.
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Creative Director
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I'm assuming Asmodeus is the same "Asmodeus" (in principle) as the one in the old first edition AD&D monster manual?
Its nice to see Paizo use these old-school villain names for their products.
Grazzt in SCAP, Demogorgon in Savage Tide, Kyuss in AoW, and now a temple to the devil lord of the 9!
I wasn't sure how any of these great iconic villains (such as Orcus - who by the way was always my favorite!!!) are covered under copyright law or how/who/what you as a 3rd Party publisher have access to use their likenesses in your products. Again, as an old-school game who started back in 82 with AD&D 1st edition - those villains have a lot of nostalgia with me (and many others of us).
Robert
The cool thing about the vast majority of the old demon lords and devils and all that is that Gary based them on real-world myth to a certain extent. As a result... while the exact incarnation and stats and all that for them in D&D remains Wizards of the Coast's intellectual property, the concepts and ideas for the creatures themselves is in the public domain.
Orcus is a special case, though... even though he's open content/public domain too... we'll probably not be doing much at all with him in Golarion, since he's not only a relatively large part of 4th Edition, but also he's so closely tied to Necromancer Games' stuff. I'd rather not dilute him further, if that makes any sense... and anyway, there's PLENTY of other classic bad guys out there for us to do stuff with!
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Orcus is a special case, though... even though he's open content/public domain too... we'll probably not be doing much at all with him in Golarion, since he's not only a relatively large part of 4th Edition, but also he's so closely tied to Necromancer Games' stuff. I'd rather not dilute him further, if that makes any sense... and anyway, there's PLENTY of other classic bad guys out there for us to do stuff with!
Thanks for the response, james. Good to hear the info, too! As a fan of Orcus I always had a liking to Necromancer Games - glad you guys are now in cahoots.
I do look forward to seeing some of the other big-name villains in your APs in the future: Pazuzu, Malcanthet, Kostchuchie to name a few!!!
Robert
I do look forward to seeing some of the other big-name villains in your APs in the future: Pazuzu, Malcanthet, Kostchuchie to name a few!!!
Robert
Pazuzu is from Middle Eastern myth and Kostchtchie from Slavic, so we could include them (we've already mentioned Pazuzu in the Lamashtu article in PF 5). Malcanthet, however, is a Rob Kuntz creation who exists solely in the realm of D&D and, thus, is outside of our ability to use. Between OGL titles and pure myth, though, we’ve got dozens of options for familiar fiends to populate Golarion’s cosmology with—Socothbenoth and Nocticula being two of my mythological favorites. Who knows, we might even make up one or two ourselves… we have been known to do that too. ^_~
What about Ghaunadaur?
I'm pretty sure that Ghaunadaur is a closed content, being the IP of Wizards of the Coast.
What about avatars/aspects/incarnations/whatever for beings like Lamashtu and Asmodeus. Kicking their butt by proxy is still a good butt kickin'.
So, I'm writing a campaign with defeating the Four Horsemen as the ultimate objective. I would LOVE to have a stat block for them, but I haven't seen it yet in anything I've read. James mentions the Horsemen being elaborated in the "hardcover." I'm afraid I don't know what that means. Which hardcover? It's very likely that I've just missed them somewhere. Can anyone point me in the right direction or are they not published yet?
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Creative Director
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So, I'm writing a campaign with defeating the Four Horsemen as the ultimate objective. I would LOVE to have a stat block for them, but I haven't seen it yet in anything I've read. James mentions the Horsemen being elaborated in the "hardcover." I'm afraid I don't know what that means. Which hardcover? It's very likely that I've just missed them somewhere. Can anyone point me in the right direction or are they not published yet?
That means the upcoming campaign setting book, "The Inner Sea World Guide." But in this case, "elaborated" does not mean stats at all. The four Horsemen, like demon lords and arch devils, are well above CR 25, and thus too powerful to really throw at PCs using the core PFRPG rules. Until we figure out what to do with post 20th-level rules, we won't be stating up the Horsemen.
Thanks for the quick answer, James. I'll have to settle for foiling the Horsemen instead of killing them. That makes more sense for villains of their status anyway.
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Thanks for the quick answer, James. I'll have to settle for foiling the Horsemen instead of killing them. That makes more sense for villains of their status anyway.
Or lest the PC's kill their earthly avatars so to speak. As well as foiling their plans. I mean imagine how the PC's might feel if they undertake this huge campaign about stopping them. Only to find out in the end that those very tough things they killed was just their avatars and the real horsemen are still out their. Likely plotting against the PC's now. Who know maybe by then (depending how long your campaign takes) the epic rules might be out... maybe.
I'm eager to know more about the Four Horsemen but willing to wait for answers to all but on question:
Do the Four Horsemen come from Notre Dame? (And my, but I dated myself with that crack, didn't I?)
Thanks for the quick answer, James. I'll have to settle for foiling the Horsemen instead of killing them. That makes more sense for villains of their status anyway.
Even if facing them directly isn't as viable an option at the moment, there are always archdaemons at a notch below them (both among the courts of each of the Four such as Vorasha the Ophidian or Zelishkar of the Bitter Flame -the only two such named so far IIRC-, those not allied to a specific one, or those exiled in some capacity). There are also lesser avatars or projections of one of the archdaemons if you want to go that route, etc.
So, I'm writing a campaign with defeating the Four Horsemen as the ultimate objective. I would LOVE to have a stat block for them, but I haven't seen it yet in anything I've read. James mentions the Horsemen being elaborated in the "hardcover." I'm afraid I don't know what that means. Which hardcover? It's very likely that I've just missed them somewhere. Can anyone point me in the right direction or are they not published yet?
As Dark Mistress mentioned, it's probably sufficient for the "horsemen" that the players defeat to be avatars of the actual horsemen.
Kind of like how you wouldn't actually throw your players up against Demogorgon or Asmodeus.
I'd recommend using the four horsemen template from the Advanced Bestiary as a starting point; I used it recently (on primal elementals) and it worked out pretty well. Of course, you'll probably want to tweak it some for your campaign. And with the Bestiary 2 out, you could apply it to daemons of the appropriate CR.
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Pazuzu is from Middle Eastern myth and Kostchtchie from Slavic, so we could include them (we've already mentioned Pazuzu in the Lamashtu article in PF 5). Malcanthet, however, is a Rob Kuntz creation who exists solely in the realm of D&D and, thus, is outside of our ability to use. Between OGL titles and pure myth, though, we’ve got dozens of options for familiar fiends to populate Golarion’s cosmology with—Socothbenoth and Nocticula being two of my mythological favorites. Who knows, we might even make up one or two ourselves… we have been known to do that too. ^_~
I do look forward to seeing some of the other big-name villains in your APs in the future: Pazuzu, Malcanthet, Kostchuchie to name a few!!!
Robert
There is lots of room for sources and uses for them. For example, in ancient Babylon, Pazuzu was sometimes invoked to guard against monstrous births or to protect mothers in childbirth. So, it might be interesting to have help against Lamashtu coming from Pazuzu. (Sometimes, the enemy of my enemy is my ally .... as long as the original enemy is still standing.)
So, I agree that it is perhaps not best to muddy the waters or risk a legal headache by working with what WoTC and others have done before. Remember, you can do anything in your homebrew but Paizo has a lot of things to consider when designing a creature or an adventure.
Even if facing them directly isn't as viable an option at the moment, there are always archdaemons at a notch below them (both among the courts of each of the Four such as Vorasha the Ophidian or Zelishkar of the Bitter Flame -the only two such named so far IIRC-, those not allied to a specific one, or those exiled in some capacity). There are also lesser avatars or projections of one of the archdaemons if you want to go that route, etc.
I am currently writing my own campaign which will have daemons as a focus. Thus, I would like to know which non-deacon daemon would be best suited to be a schemer in Golorian (i.e. something like an Ultroloth). Could you point me towards a daemon? As I could not find a lot of material on daemons in Golorian. Of course, if there is a archdaemon that would suit this role, I would be happy to use it granted that there is material on it or do I have to wait for the inevitable "Book of the Damned III Subjugators of Abaddon", written by Todd Stewart? ;-)
I hope this is not too much of a thread hijack.