So a while ago there was a very good conversation about the interaction of the power sources the designers have talked about, the way certain classes will be updated, and when a particular class will be coming out.
We know that the initial power sources are going to be Martial, Arcane, and Divine, and that the Bard (and arcane leader) will be i the PHB2 and the Swordmage is in the Forgotten Realms books.
The Players handbook 2 will feature Primal and Psionic, in time for Eberron, and that Ki will probably be coming in the PHB3 probably along side the Shadow power source.
I organized things a bit, and made a list of each role and the powersource, and what the best guess we have for what each role/power will be. We don't know them all, but there's some pretty good guesses to be made.
What are your thoughts?
Power: Martial (The Body)
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Leader: Warlord
Striker: Rogue
Controler: Ranger (Actually a striker)
Defender: Fighter
Power: Divine (The Gods)
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Leader: Cleric
Striker: Favored Soul
Controler:
Defender: Paladain
Power: Arcane (The elements)
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Leader: Bard
Striker: Wu-Jen
Controler: Wizard
Defender: Swordmage
Power: Primal (The Nature)
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Leader: Shaman
Striker: Druid (Striker/Leader hybrid)
Controler: Sorcerer
Defender: Barbarian
Power: Psionic (The Mind)
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Leader: Ardent
Striker: Wilder
Controler: Psion
Defender: Soul-knife
Power: Shadow (The Unnatural)
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Leader: Blackguard
Striker: Necromancer
Controler: Illusionist
Defender: Hex Blade
Power: Ki (The Soul)
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Leader: Shugenja
Striker: Ninja
Controler: Monk
Defender: Samurai
Power: 8th Power Source Unknown (???)
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Leader: ???
Striker: ???
Controler: ???
Defender: ???
You've forgotten that Warlocks are indeed Arcane Strikers. I don't think we'll see a Martial Controller anytime soon, if ever (designers have said they don't see a reason for every source to always fill all the roles, and that a martial controller would be hard to do ... not sure how hard they are trying to fill that vacancy ...)
Also, I don't know if I believe Blackguard would show up, at least not on a list of base classes. Paladins can be evil now, so what would the differences between the Paladin of an evil god and a Blackguard be? Now, Blackguard as a Paladin PP that requires you to be serving an evil god ... yum!
Overall, your guesses look right to me (although exactly what the Druid is, who knows?) up through Primal. I could see Druid being a Defender while the Barbarian steps up to Striker.
I think exactly what Psionic classes we get will be more or less a crap shoot, although yours are as good as any. I'd see a Soulknife as a Striker though, maybe a Psychic Warrior as a Defender.
I'm not too convinced on a Ki power source (in 3E designers admitted at one point that Ki and Psi were the same source, just used differently) although I could definitely see a power source used for an Oriental themed lineup. Maybe Ancestor?
Looking at the Wizard, we know they stripped out a lot of the Illusion, Necromancy, and Conjuration type abilities. So I think you list leaves out any kind of Elementalist/Summoner. Would that be a Primal type? Something else? Maybe this is a role Sorcerers now possess?
Finally, since we already have two Martial Strikers, I'd expect to see some of these Source/Role combos to get more than one class as time goes on and more are released. Lots of things to muse on.
Cheers! :)
You've forgotten that Warlocks are indeed Arcane Strikers.
Doh! I knew I had forgotten somebody. I just couldn't figure out where. And now the forums will not let me edit the post... grrr....
I don't think we'll see a Martial Controller anytime soon, if ever (designers have said they don't see a reason for every source to always fill all the roles, and that a martial controller would be hard to do ... not sure how hard they are trying to fill that vacancy ...)
Neither do I. That's why I placed the Ranger there, indicating that it's really a striker. I just expect that a rangerd based Ranger could have several intresting attacks that woudl give them a bit of battlefield control, like stapling people to trees with arrows.
Also, I don't know if I believe Blackguard would show up, at least not on a list of base classes. Paladins can be evil now, so what would the differences between the Paladin of an evil god and a Blackguard be? Now, Blackguard as a Paladin PP that requires you to be serving an evil god ... yum!
The difference would be that a Blackguard would draw his power not from a god but from a more generic darkness like the Shadowfell. His evil would not be based upon a set of beleifs, or the dictates of a god, but upon his own personal evil. Think Lord Soth. No god to call upon, just a corrupt evil knight who has embraced that dark power. The name might not be Blackguard, but I expect to see something like this.
That being said... Blackguard as a Pargon Path makes a whole lot of sense.
I'm not too convinced on a Ki power source (in 3E designers admitted at one point that Ki and Psi were the same source, just used differently) although I could definitely see a power source used for an Oriental themed lineup. Maybe Ancestor?
Well I'm seeing Ki as the power of the mortal soul, whether that's the power a monk uses through his enlightened self meditation, or the ancestor magic a shugenja would call upon. So effectivly, Ki is a mix of Ancestor and personal enlightenment power. It woudl be a very eastern style power source, and a lot folks love their ninjas (Me included).
Looking at the Wizard, we know they stripped out a lot of the Illusion, Necromancy, and Conjuration type abilities. So I think you list leaves out any kind of Elementalist/Summoner. Would that be a Primal type? Something else? Maybe this is a role Sorcerers now possess?
Then it does make sense in a way to have a summoning focused class round out the magic. However, I don't think it'll be a Elementalist based, because that seems to be the perview of the Arcane power source.
That, from waht I've seen is the idea for Arcane anyway. It's the sources of power coming from the Elemental planes, to balance out the power of the gods over in the Divine power source.
Finally, since we already have two Martial Strikers, I'd expect to see some of these Source/Role combos to get more than one class as time goes on and more are released. Lots of things to muse on.
Cheers! :)
I think we will see very balanced setups, because of how the designers have talked about their theory of Power sources and world building.
They want people to be able to pick and choose which power sources are available in a world without limiting the kind of roles a person can play.
So you could say, in this campaign setting, you can have Martial, Divine, and Psionic classes, but not Arcane. (Say, if you were designing a Dark Sun like setting where wizard magic was a really, really bad idea.)
This looks pretty good. As for the 8th power source, what about something Far Realm linked?
I've seen that suggestion a few times Sebastian. Maybe we'll see a resurgence of Binders and Alienists and ... ? No clue what would make up this area, but we're so far outside of DnD I'm not sure it would be thing we've seen already.
Something else to keep in mind is that aside from 8 power sources, I've seen murmurs from the designers about some classes eventually being made that really didn't fit any power source (but whose power source presumably isn't useful enough to have several classes using it). All in all, I think the more opened ended set of ideas for classes is a very promising area here (I always love base classes, but all too often later released ones are stronger than the originals ... 4E seems to be trying pretty hard to avoid this ... I hope it works!)
Cheers! :)
I do love me some Ninjas! I'd be upset if we never got to see them eventually.
Instead of having an Oriental themed power source, of course, they could always release an Oriental expansion book with new Martial/Arcane/Divine/Whatever classes, and Ninja and Samurai could be Martial with Wu-Jen and Shugenja fitting in wherever they go.
Your idea of a Blackguard as a general champion of darkness is kind of interesting. I think the key would be to make sure it isn't just an evil Paladin (in fact, I'd want no implied alignment, like the Paladin).
Hrms. :)
Edit: When 3E came out I was SO excited at the concept of PrCs. I spent all this time thinking of the different types of PrCs you could make. With 4E I'm thinking of new base classes/PPs/EDs and multiclass combos. My head is spinning with anticipation!
Edit 2: I just realized something! Each new base class will come with a feat (or feats) describing what multiclassing into the class offers. So even new classes will be (hopefully) balanced for old classes to take as a multiclass. Man, that's neat-o! Stupid May, having so many days!
This looks pretty good. As for the 8th power source, what about something Far Realm linked?
It would be kinda cool. They've never really done a class based on them before. It also kind of fits with the trend of the power sources come from the various planes.
Divine comes from the gods,
Arcane comes from elementals and the elemental flux, whih have been in conflict for a long time. (The inner/outerplane divide reborn in the new edition.)
Primal from the the feywild and Shadow from the Shadowfell, which are pretty much opposed to each other.
Martial, Psionic, and Ki (Ancestor) are all based upon the self, and are thus rooted in the prime material planes. The idea of a person being composed of a mind, body, and soul is very well established, and adding a Far Realms based power source would, in a way, balance out those power sources. The Far Realms would be totally alien and other from the normal human (dwarf, elf, etc.) expirence.
It's certainly more intresting then my only other two ideas, which are an Artifact or Luck based power source.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Martial, Psionic, and Ki (Ancestor) are all based upon the self, and are thus rooted in the prime material planes. The idea of a person being composed of a mind, body, and soul is very well established, and adding a Far Realms based power source would, in a way, balance out those power sources. The Far Realms would be totally alien and other from the normal human (dwarf, elf, etc.) expirence.
Come to think of it though, psionic and far realm might be tied together in some way.
It's certainly more intresting then my only other two ideas, which are an Artifact or Luck based power source.
Those are good too. Are there any other planes that might serve as sources of power that we missed?
I think that monks will be another flavor of striker, since Martial has two strikers as well I'd expect to see two classes that fall into the same role/source combo. Monk just seems more like a striker, tumbling into melee and beating people up.
I do love me some Ninjas! I'd be upset if we never got to see them eventually.
The black pagama types will make sure they get printed, of that i have no doubt.
Instead of having an Oriental themed power source, of course, they could always release an Oriental expansion book with new Martial/Arcane/Divine/Whatever classes, and Ninja and Samurai could be Martial with Wu-Jen and Shugenja fitting in wherever they go.
Well, they could do that but they've stated a couple time they want to limit the number of base classes being printed outside the Players Handbooks. So unless they do a full oriental campaign setting I don't think they'll do a solely Oriental book in this edition. It's much more likely that they'll make the PHB3 Oriental themed, along with another power source like Shadow to make sure sales are good.
Your idea of a Blackguard as a general champion of darkness is kind of interesting. I think the key would be to make sure it isn't just an evil Paladin (in fact, I'd want no implied alignment, like the Paladin).
Hrms. :)
Hmmmm... it would be hard to justify why a good person would draw upon the dark and destructive powers that would seem to charactorize the Shadow power source, but you could do it.
It would make for an intresting anti-hero class type, a character who has been cursed or born with an evil destiny that he is fighting against. You could have some serious brooding fun that way.
Something else to keep in mind is that aside from 8 power sources, I've seen murmurs from the designers about some classes eventually being made that really didn't fit any power source (but whose power source presumably isn't useful enough to have several classes using it).
I have heard this too, and I expect that classes like Ebberon's Archanist or a Luck based class will fall into this category. they woudl be cool to see, but they don't fit into the other power groups.
I just realized something! Each new base class will come with a feat (or feats) describing what multiclassing into the class offers.
Yep David, I would fully expect that each new base class would come with a set of multiclassing feats. That's why they made the multi class rules so generic. the three feats which allow you to take alternate powers are totally independant of the class you are multiclassing into. You just have to have the base feet for the class.
I dont think we'll see "offical" classes filling up every slot. I recall a Wizards designer stating something to that effect.
I could see a Favored Soul as just another divine leader, but who does things in a different style, or perhaps bleeds into another roll somewhat (like defender, or striker). Its been said that the druid is a kind of hybrid class, so I wouldnt be surprised.
My expectations of the bard is an arcane leader, with perhaps a bit of controller thrown in (since the harpy and howling hag both use sonic controlling effects).
Swordmage I see as an arcane defender, as they utilize magic to enhance their weapons and armor.
I think that the barbarian, druid, and sorcerer will fall into the primal power source that has been mentioned. Not sure if the barbarian is going to be a defender, striker, or combination (it certainly seems mobile enough to be a striker). The sorcerer will probably fit well into the controller role.
As for the psychic source, I think that the psion might make an interesting leader type, or at least have the potential to leak into that role a bit, but controller sounds right to me. I also think that the wilder will be a controller as well, as it sounds flashy enough. I think that at this point we'll be having more than a few hybrid classes.
Psychic warrior sounds best for a defender, and soul-knife definitely sounds like a striker (as does a lurk).
The necromancer has always struck me as a toss-up between a striker, a controller, and/or a leader. I could see a necromancer using leader-inspired powers to bolster undead, use powerful death rays, or just waves upon waves of necromantic energy to wither away bad guys. I think a striker/controller is where its going to end up.
I like the idea of a blackguard as a leader, but since the paladin is a defender, I think that it will likewise end up there. Since a blackguard gets sneak attack, perhaps it will be a defender/striker?
The hexblade curses make me think striker, or perhaps a striker/controller hybrid?
Ninjas and monks seem similar in the same way that a two-bladed ranger and rogue are, so I think they will be both strikers. Samurai would fit great as a defender, and I likewise agree with the shugenja.
Like I said, I dont expect to see every slot on every power source filled up. I know people have been trying to cobble a martial controller that could use grenades, or something to the effect to emulate a non-magical AoE attacker. I fully expect to see fan-made classes to fill in the gaps, however.
Anyway, I also expect to see a lot of NEW classes, as well. Swordmage is the main example, here, and its possible that even classes like the illusionist might get a lot more oomph than what we are used to seeing. The halfling enchanter from Deserts of Desolation, for example, has an at will psychic-damage attack.
Finally, where they dont make a new class, it might become a paragon path instead. Perhaps the necromancer will end up as a paragon path for the wizard?
Edit 2: I just realized something! Each new base class will come with a feat (or feats) describing what multiclassing into the class offers. So even new classes will be (hopefully) balanced for old classes to take as a multiclass. Man, that's neat-o! Stupid May, having so many days!
Months are so stupid. Whoever made calendars is a jerk because he thought that we were all too dumb to just track time only in seconds, so divided up measurements of time in various increments just to "simplify" for the other morons out there. Ugh.
I think that monks will be another flavor of striker, since Martial has two strikers as well I'd expect to see two classes that fall into the same role/source combo. Monk just seems more like a striker, tumbling into melee and beating people up.
I'm afraid I agree with you, even if I've placed them in the controller slot for Ki. I've done so because i think that the difference between a striker and a controller will be subtle, and in some cases very difficult to notice.
I peg the Monk as a controller because you can make a case that Monks would be a very good canidate for the first melee based controler. They could be capable of disabling their opponents with cunning pressure point attacks, various holds, blocks, trips, ki shouts, and throws.
They would indeed tumble about the field doing damage, jumping around like a crazy person just like they always have, but they could have very thematic powers that gave them the ability to debilitate their foes during the fight. Misdirecting blows aimed at them to their opponents would be a good example.
And since the power source is Ki, being able to do a handful of Ki shout based attacks and doing round house kicks and such are all good monk power ideas. It would give them limited area of effect attacks, which seem to be controler style powers.
I'm just doing some thingking out loud here. What do you think?
I read a report about a potential monk character on the staff blogs at Gleemax. I guess the guy was able to redirect an attack from one bad guy into another.
If thats an indication, I could feasibly see the monk leaking every so slightly into the controller role as he backflips into combat and starts wreaking havoc by knocking people over, having them hit eachother, and pretty much any Jacky Chan stunt you can imagine.
This is the kind of stuff that calls for that "deals X damage on a miss", as the DM can just keep jotting numbers down instead of calling for it, and even try to describe various ways in which this happened (bad guy went to attack, character stomped a floorboard up into their groin before they did it).
Very cinematic, to me.
I'm afraid I agree with you, even if I've placed them in the controller slot for Ki. I've done so because i think that the difference between a striker and a controller will be subtle, and in some cases very difficult to notice.
I know that wizards get displacement as an immediate action thing, so controllers might have powers that let them not only do crowd control, but reactive attacks, mobility, and defense for the rest of the party.
I peg the Monk as a controller because you can make a case that Monks would be a very good canidate for the first melee based controler. They could be capable of disabling their opponents with cunning pressure point attacks, various holds, blocks, trips, ki shouts, and throws.
I suppose it depends on what Wizards thinks controllers are supposed to be able to do, but that is a lot like what I thought that a controller could potentially do as well. Like, the character himself is the center point for a "Burst X; disarm X opponents" type of power. :-D
They would indeed tumble about the field doing damage, jumping around like a crazy person just like they always have, but they could have very thematic powers that gave them the ability to debilitate their foes during the fight. Misdirecting blows aimed at them to their opponents would be a good example.
Since I forsee more classes becoming hybrid engines, the reality might be the best of both worlds: striker/controller!
And since the power source is Ki, being able to do a handful of Ki shout based attacks and doing round house kicks and such are all good monk power ideas. It would give them limited area of effect attacks, which seem to be controler style powers.
This rolls in with what you said above, and I think its a pretty cool idea. A related power is the ranger paragon path power that lets you do a whirlwind attack and knock everyone back. It may be the case that simply being able to land an AoE attack is going to be sufficient to peg them there, but its a start, and an interesting take on the concept.
Its ideally the stuff that I imagined a monk SHOULD be doing, and allows them to be faster and more unique from a fighter, as in 3rd Edition a monk basically does what most characters do: run up into melee and hit something to death.
If they can quickly and easily roll in other things (target is staggered, target is slowed, target becomes prone, etc), I'll be a LOT happier with it.
Of course, I trust Wizards to do their homework, listen to the fanbase, and deliver excellent paid content.
I read a report about a potential monk character on the staff blogs at Gleemax. I guess the guy was able to redirect an attack from one bad guy into another.
If thats an indication, I could feasibly see the monk leaking every so slightly into the controller role as he backflips into combat and starts wreaking havoc by knocking people over, having them hit eachother, and pretty much any Jacky Chan stunt you can imagine.
Since 3rd edition came out, the Monk class has been always been adisapointment to me, and you have hit upon the reason. I cannot play Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, or any of the classic martial arts masters. Thats what the monk is based upon, and it's always bothered me you can't do that.
By giving the monk powers which stagger or stun opponents, and area of effect shout powers they woudl really make them different from the fighter and rogue. If the new monk grants powers which mimic the kind of things you see in kung fu movies, then they will be great. If not, then the monk will remain a disapointment.
(bad guy went to attack, character stomped a floorboard up into their groin before they did it).
Very cinematic, to me.
Forget ninjas, I want to be able to do that!
I read a report about a potential monk character on the staff blogs at Gleemax. I guess the guy was able to redirect an attack from one bad guy into another.
If thats an indication, I could feasibly see the monk leaking every so slightly into the controller role as he backflips into combat and starts wreaking havoc by knocking people over, having them hit eachother, and pretty much any Jacky Chan stunt you can imagine.Since 3rd edition came out, the Monk class has been always been adisapointment to me, and you have hit upon the reason. I cannot play Jackie Chan, Bruce Lee, or any of the classic martial arts masters. Thats what the monk is based upon, and it's always bothered me you can't do that.
By giving the monk powers which stagger or stun opponents, and area of effect shout powers they woudl really make them different from the fighter and rogue. If the new monk grants powers which mimic the kind of things you see in kung fu movies, then they will be great. If not, then the monk will remain a disapointment.
(bad guy went to attack, character stomped a floorboard up into their groin before they did it).
Very cinematic, to me.Forget ninjas, I want to be able to do that!
My problems with the monk stem from her craptastic attack rolls, damage, hit points, AC, and abilities.
Basically, she gets an average attack bonus, and if you wanna do multiple attacks, that extra hit doesnt help. Sure, you can flank a target, or something, but that extra +2 to hit is something I would prefer to keep instead of exchange, since I'm already a few points behind the fighter with a better Strength and Weapon Focus.Which leads me to another problem, and thats the fact that as a monk, you are tempted to spread your ability scores out in many directions: Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, and to a lesser degree Wisdom are all great. While you may not try to ramp them ALL up at the start, you might be tempted to instead spread your gold or other party resources thin trying to bolster them all (+2 Wis item, or having the wizard slap on owl's wisdom for an extra +2 AC).
Monk's have horrendous AC scores. Basically, at 1st-level I would expect a monk to have an AC of like, 13-14 (assuming a combination of Dexterity and Wisdom granting a total of +3 to +4 in total). You want to have a good Strength, lest you blow a feat on Weapon Finesse, but that doesnt help your okay damage early on (1d6). Of course, that Constitution would be nice to help out your paltry 8 hit points...you basically end up with many ability scores each playing tug of war on your points.
The monk appears to just be a faster but frailer fighter. You dont have to buy weapons, but they can help (amulet of mighty fists). You need to spend more money than normal on AC boosters (bracers of armor +2 cost more than masterwork fullplate, if memory serves, for about 1/4th the AC). You can move faster, as long as the fighter doesnt buy boots of speed or springing and striding.
I think it follows the design philosophy of trying to make it sorta good at several things (scouting, mobility, attacking) to the point where the class sucks like the bard does. 4th Edition seems to mitigate this by making characters very good at what they are supposed to do, while making every character at least feasible at more mundane things (like scouting).
Per pg 54 of the 4E PHB.
Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow.
So that gives us:
1 - Martial
2 - Arcane
3 - Divine
4 - Elemental
5 - Ki
6 - Primal
7 - Psionic
8 - Shadow
So it looks like we were REALLY close. Kudos to us!
Cheers! :)
Rawk.
Per pg 54 of the 4E PHB.
Future power sources include elemental, ki, primal, psionic, and shadow.So it looks like we were REALLY close. Kudos to us!
Cheers! :)
Indeed! I'm quite happy to see their eight power source is Elemental, because thats a very cool power source idea. I had been lumping it into Arcane, but I'm glad it's not!
So, my guess would be that Fire, Earth, Water, and Air are defininte elements that a class can be based around.
My guesses:
Earth will be a Defender,
Fire will be a Striker,
Water will be a Leader, and
Air will be a Controler.
Thoughts on any other elements that might appear?
Since they made mention of not adhering to "classic" elements, I expect to see void, wood, and perhaps metal. Also, they do mention the possibility of crystal, slime, and smoke archons in the MM, so...well...yeah.
Not that I expect them to fill in all the blanks (nor do I want them to).
Note that they said they're trying to move away from the classic Greek elements with the whole Elemental Chaos thing.
With that in mind, it seems exceptionally obvious for there to be a Conjurer style class in here, summoning elemental beings to do his bidding. I'm not sure what else we'll see though. The classic Greek elements are so prevalent that it's difficult to even imagine elemental flavors without them.
Cheers! :)