Okay, so I'm starting the Savage Tide AP soon and after poring over all 12 Dungeons (plus 12 Dragon Issues) I think I have it.... except I have one problem I wanna try and troubleshoot ahead of time:
This concerns the intensely convoluted subplot concerning Malcanthet.
Let me try and figure this out:
1) Malcanthet has a demon-bat steal a Tooth-thing of Ahazu and stash in with Camazotz stuff.
2) Takes a Camazotz idol to Tomoachan for PC's to find.
3) PC's find it, so that when they get to Isle of Dread, they can conveniently turn it over to the aspect, which in turn, grants them access to his hoard, which in turn, allows them to come across the Tooth.
4) PC's carry around mysterious Tooth for another 8 Levels of play....
5) PC's inadvertently discover Tooth can be used to Bargain for Shami-Amourae's freedom, and thus, do so.
Does any of this seem excessively complicated? And there are holes up and down this thing...
For one, the entire AP assumes the PC's will find and KEEP both the bat idol, THEN the Tooth of Ahazu. What happens if they lose one of these things? Or they decide having a crazy tooth in their mouth isn't worth it and try to sell it? Does Malcanthet intervene and arrange for the object in question to bounce back into the party's belongings? And this all assumes the PC's even TAKE the Tooth at all. I can easily imagine a generous player offering said Tooth to Camazotz's Aspect. Or just plain leaving it there because it isn't theirs.
The whole idea is based on some oracular "feeling" Malcanthet got during Sea Wyvern's Wake and assumes the PC's will keep said mysterious objects with them until they are needed 8-10 levels later. It feels very awkward to me.
I do understand that the PC's don't NEED the Tooth to bargain for Shami's freedom, but still, what's the point to all this? Some obscure reward for being a pack-rat the entire game? It just seems overly convoluted to me.
Maybe thats the point. Malcanthet is a convoluted jerk.
I would love to know how the designers thought of this subplot. Perhaps it could give me some insight into why it's all necessary? -.-;
Opinions on this? Thanks in advance.
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I believe there was originally a bigger hint that it was important, namely that the tooth was wrapped n a cloth with the symbol of Ahazu on it - the same symbol they need to trace in the mosaic.
See the third post here from Steve Greer: LINK
That makes it all seem slightly more 'big picture' and thus 'a keeper.' I know what you mean about the whole thing though :)
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The whole idea is based on some oracular "feeling" Malcanthet got during Sea Wyvern's Wake and assumes the PC's will keep said mysterious objects with them until they are needed 8-10 levels later. It feels very awkward to me.
I figured that Malcanthet, like other powerful supernatural beings, can see the strands of destiny heading towards a likely future. I had her arrange for several possible ways she could maneuver the PCs towards their fate. The only one of these I've planted so far was making the jade bat (one of the "easter egg" items in Lavinia's manor in Bullywug Gambit) also something that Malcanthet had an agent steal from the Aspect and plant with Larissa during her first visit to the Isle of Dread. The PCs read her journal in the vault at the end of TiNH, where I added a mention of her being given this jade bat by a lone phanaton (Malcanthet's polymorphed agent) who said it would keep her safe from the forces of darkness. That paid off in that the PCs are still carrying the jade bat with them.
If demon lords can see that far into the future, it's only fair that others can too. On that tip, I plan to have some dreams/visions/divinations pointing towards the Teeth of Dahlver-Nar. My players get psyched about artifacts from the AD&D DMG, so I don't think they'll toss the Tooth if they have a suspicion it might be an artifact.
Also on the far-future/plot problem, I couldn't figure out why Vanthus was so intimately involved in Demogorgon's plan, ultimately helping Big D not at all - quite the opposite since the PCs wouldn't be on Big D's case if it weren't for Vanthus. In my campaign, the page of the Demonomicon that VV found at his (Seeker) uncle's mansion was planted there by Socoth-Benoth in order to set up the chain of events that leads to the Prince of Demon's overthrow at the end of the AP. Socoth-Benoth may be a contender in the end, or may just hope to rise in the ranks by being prepared for the coming cataclysm.
This concerns the intensely convoluted subplot concerning Malcanthet.
...
It just seems overly convoluted to me.
Maybe thats the point. Malcanthet is a convoluted jerk.
Bingo.
Intensely convoluted plots which manipulate mortals and make them jump through hoops? That seems like it would be Malcanthet's third-favorite pastime.
As for her foreknowledge, information gathering seems to be her second-favorite pastime, which is how she might have surmised that the PCs would carry the tooth around with them. (And if they try to sell it, there's probably another convoluted plot running behind the scenes that makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to do so.)
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Funny I had the same issues with the Tooth when I ran STAP. Thought it was a pretty weak link. However after looking at Steve Greer's post I can definitely see some possibilities. I jettisoned the tooth from Zoatzila's hoard. I had originally thought of putting it back in closer to Wells of Darkness but then ended up altering the path so as to wrap up in Scuttlecove.
Re Malcanthet's plan I buy the whole making mortals jump thru hoops as an idea for a story but for a game (especially when your group doesn't play every week) it seemed a little off.
My players:
A) Refused to take the Bat idol. I mistakenly placed it in a tomb and they though it grave robbing to steal it.
B) Killed Zotziliha without getting to his lair, thus no tooth.
I gave up on that thread at that point. Don't know what I'll do once they get to the Wells of Darkness.
Creative Director
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Malcanthet absolutely adores overly complex plans. That's one of her personality quirks.
ALSO: It was initially conceived as a recurring plot thread to tie the campaign together, but it didn't ever quite develop fully into as strong a plot thread as the Vanderborens or the Crimson Fleet. Probably because the whole Malcanthet/tooth of Ahazu element was a rather late addition, one that we started running with after many of the authors had already started their design.
But yeah, Malcanthet's really into the overly complex plots and stuff. It's worth noting that she has an Intelligence of 26, in any event. She's got no problem keeping these complex plots running, and I suspect that HOWEVER the plot works out in your campaign is probably the way she wanted it to work out anyway.
While Malcanthet may have an Intelligence of 26, I certainly do not and it hurts my wee puny mortal mind to think about this plot.
So what I'm getting is that this whole thing has to boil down to player curiosity? The players need to be curious about the bat idol and then the Tooth for this whole thing to roll down correctly?
I'll admit that IN CHARACTER, my mind would be blown by the demoness' ability to trick me into such a plot. OUT OF CHARACTER, I fear my players will see the whole thing (if they ever even understand it) as a DM-made-it-happen kind of thing. :/
In the end, I may be lenient on my players during the negotiations part with Ahazu if they don't have the Tooth with them. Hmm, or maybe as part of the release agreement, Ahazu could task the PC's with recovering the Tooth? An interesting little side quest could then be in order. Hmm...
Anyways, thanks for the response as always!
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I grew up on 1st Edition, so I didn't have the 'magic-item-shopping-mall' when I started.
That meant, you basically found a treasure, and you kept it with you, until you found a use for it, because, well, that's all you're gonna get!
Players with a more modern play-style tend to see all items that are not stackable with their current gear as 'portable gold pieces', and just assume they can swap them for something better. The opposition has not hit the deck before they're calling dibs on their gear.
BBEG: Uuuurgh, you have bested me! I have taken a mortal wound! My time is short! But you will never stop my evil plan...
PC 1:"Ten +2 swords; 10x(2x2)x1000, divided by 2 equals 20,000gp, split by 5 means a +2 stat-boost item for everybody, I'm having Con, you'll want Wis..."
BBEG: "...my evil plan, which will erupt in the mountains of the east..."
PC2: "No, I've already got a Wis bonus, I need Cha for my Turn checks."
BBEG: "...my EVIL PLAN, which you may want to STOP, being the SELFLESS HEROIC ADVENTURERS..."
PC3: "Hey, I should get a bigger share, since I got stiffed last time"
BBEG: "...SELFLESS HEROIC ADVENTURERS, and not a bunch of THIEVING BASTARDS!"
PC4: "No, you got a spellbook; that counts as major treasure"
PC3: "Not really, since the guy was specialised in my opposition schools, so most of it was worthless"
BBEG: "ARE YOU LISTENING TO ME?"
PC1: "Oh, of course; how could we be so stupid?"
BBEG: "Thank You, now, as I was saying..."
PC1: "Yeah, this guy's gear is worth more than all those goons together! +4 buff items for everybody!"
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Creative Director
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While Malcanthet may have an Intelligence of 26, I certainly do not and it hurts my wee puny mortal mind to think about this plot.
So what I'm getting is that this whole thing has to boil down to player curiosity? The players need to be curious about the bat idol and then the Tooth for this whole thing to roll down correctly?
I'll admit that IN CHARACTER, my mind would be blown by the demoness' ability to trick me into such a plot. OUT OF CHARACTER, I fear my players will see the whole thing (if they ever even understand it) as a DM-made-it-happen kind of thing. :/
In the end, I may be lenient on my players during the negotiations part with Ahazu if they don't have the Tooth with them. Hmm, or maybe as part of the release agreement, Ahazu could task the PC's with recovering the Tooth? An interesting little side quest could then be in order. Hmm...
Anyways, thanks for the response as always!
The whole point of the thing is so that the PCs will have Ahazu's tooth to turn in and therefore avoid having to make some tougher decisions later, of course. If your PCs end up not wanting to keep the bat idol or tooth... don't force it. They may end up regretting that choice later, but it won't hamstring the campaign. Sending them to recover the tooth, as you mention, might be pretty cool, especially if Ahazu makes them do that before he helps...
Again, much thanks for the response.
I guess my fear is simply that, through innocent player movements, they may accidentally stiff themselves out of something that can be quite crucial to the storyline, especially if they don't have a dedicated "Diplomacy character" and can't make the fairly astronomical DC 40 Diplomacy checks required to earn Ahazu's ear. Without this success, the players can't release Shami, and if they can't release Shami, they can't really continue (without my seriously deviating from the published material). They NEED Shami in order to learn Demogorgan's weakness, plus it initiates the event with the Stygian divergence that brings Charon into the picture. And he of course, leads inevitably to Iggwilv.
I suppose, in the end, if it looks kinda hopeless for my PC's, I might just be lenient and let them have Ahazu's ear anyway, regardless of the diplomacy roll. A sort of "make a diplomacy check" while I really don't care what they achieve so long as it's not like a 2. -.-;
Thanks for the insight, my Fiendish Tyrannosaur (and all the others too!). Much appreciated, as always.
If you think of it as a novel and not an role-playing adventure, it makes much more sense. It is a doom in the style of Elric; the threads of fate convulse to bring important players together with their destinies. And the game even has a mechanic for it; in this case Malcanaet.
In other words: heavy-handed DM plots are not always bad, at least as long as they do not involve shackling your players.
This was one of the parts of the story that kind of bothered me as well. I just find that he main problem with Malcanthet's plan is that the success of it leaves far too much to chance. For instance, in my campaign only 2 out of 5 PCs who were actually at the shrine to get the tooth have survived and are still around. However, of those two, one of them is the one who decided to grab the tooth, and the party still has it in their possession. This works out well since they have just finished Into the Maw and will be starting Wells of Darkness very soon.
I wouldn't say the whole AP depends on this minute plot hook. It's a cool addition that kind of justifies Malcanthet's involvement at the end of the AP. Even still, take the whole thing out, and no one would know the wiser. On the other hand, those who might piece it together will have a fascinating revelation on their hands, one that might make them reconsider their alliance with the Demon Queen of the Succubi.
BBEG: Uuuurgh, you have bested me! I have taken a mortal wound! My time is short! But you will never stop my evil plan...
PC 1:"Ten +2 swords; 10x(2x2)x1000, divided by 2 equals 20,000gp, split by 5 means a +2 stat-boost item for everybody, I'm having Con, you'll want Wis..."
BBEG: "...my evil plan, which will erupt in the mountains of the east..."
PC2: "No, I've already got a Wis bonus, I need Cha for my Turn checks."
BBEG: "...my EVIL PLAN, which you may want to STOP, being the SELFLESS HEROIC ADVENTURERS..."
PC3: "Hey, I should get a bigger share, since I got stiffed last time"
BBEG: "...SELFLESS HEROIC ADVENTURERS, and not a bunch of THIEVING BASTARDS!"
PC4: "No, you got a spellbook; that counts as major treasure"
PC3: "Not really, since the guy was specialised in my opposition schools, so most of it was worthless"
BBEG: "ARE YOU LISTENING TO ME?"
PC1: "Oh, of course; how could we be so stupid?"
BBEG: "Thank You, now, as I was saying..."
PC1: "Yeah, this guy's gear is worth more than all those goons together! +4 buff items for everybody!"
You've been listening in on my games, havent you, Snorter.
Also, one thing that slipped out that was printed in the material when the tooth of Ahazu was introduced was that it was a "minor artifact". Casually mention this piece of information, and the players are sure to consider it's uniqueness to be something more than what they might fetch at Ye Olde Magic Item Pawn Shop.
The fact that its not readily identifiable and that no magic merchant will touch it might be a clue as well...
IIR, it doesn't have a gp value.
It does have a GP value (6000 gp)
Any PC (that's paying attention) will want to hang onto the item however, the bat idol was found miles and miles away, and the tooth is not part of Zotzilaha's hoard. These two facts should clue the PCs in to the fact that somethings up.
Be sure to mention to anyone who properly identifies it, that it is one of the legendary "Teeth of Dahlver-Nar." If your party has any binders in the group they'll jump on it.
Two other points are that you should mention it is unqie and that is doesn't take up any item slots as it only requires you knock loss a tooth. Most players would jump on the "Free item."
And make sure you keep track of who has it too. When that fighter who put it in his month dies, you should make certain to mention that the tooth "Ejects" out of the dead PCs mouth upon his expiration.
I'm hoping to use the tooth as a lead, to edge one of my PCs into the binder class since it's so involed with this campaign.
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Creative Director
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yes, but has anyone noticed that how that if you flood Golismorga, its actually doing the fish guys( i cant remember the names of them) a favor because now they can swim and dont have to be carried around on Palanquins?? Why does it say that his is the only way for it to end?
Actually... it doesn't say ANYwhere in the adventure that's the only way for it to end. In fact,
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Creative Director
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Yes but it also states that the kopru, upon learning what happened, immediately seek out and destroy all known aboleth.
Correct... they seek out the known aboleths who are still mummified. There's a LOT more than the ones they know about in the surrounding tunnels, and even the ones in the city itself are more than they can take out before the cave floods and the rest of the aboleths they didn't get to come slithering in to wreak havoc.
I grew up on 1st Edition, so I didn't have the 'magic-item-shopping-mall' when I started.
That meant, you basically found a treasure, and you kept it with you, until you found a use for it, because, well, that's all you're gonna get!Players with a more modern play-style tend to see all items that are not stackable with their current gear as 'portable gold pieces', and just assume they can swap them for something better. The opposition has not hit the deck before they're calling dibs on their gear...
All of this is true from my experience as well - but that did not mean that they sat and waited for the BBEGs monolog in 1st or 2nd in my experience. Instead of calculating the gp value of the goods they were fighting over who got what goods and what was 'fair' considering that the chance of te players finding enough to equally distribute the items was low - hence some one was always being shafted and hence heated debates.