In chat we were discussing whether 4th edition is an increase or decrease in overall player power. What do you think?
Nerf Evidence:
-Increase in hit points without increase in damage makes monsters more difficult to defeat before alarms are raised
-Two Handed Power Attack Removed
-Instantaneous Save or Die Spells Removed
-Magic Missile is not Auto-Hit
-Darkvision removed
-Rangers can't cast spells
-Mirror Image is 10th level, Fly and Invisibility are 16th
-No buffs to ability scores (Guantlets of Ogre Power, for example)
-Skill points are removed
-Sneak attack damage reduced significantly
-Baseline sneak attack, saves and hit points reduce min-max options
-Iterative Attacks Removed
Creep Evidence:
-Minor amount of self healing
-Battlefield manipulation powers
-Daily powers produce more damage
-No negative racial score modifiers
Overall I'm leaning towards nerf, and a general idea of 'balance' that could make it harder to munchkinize and imbalance the game than it was in 3.5. Thoughts?
I can see and agree with the nerfing. Fly and Invisibility at 16th level? Wow.
Assuming 1-30 is 1-20, as they've stated before, that's like getting Fly and Invisibility at 10th-level in past editions, equivalent to a 5th-level spell.
But, considering 4E is based on MMORPGs and they're attracting more of the MMORPG fan base...what is it that these folks do best?
Min-max.
I believe the nerfs will easily be countered, oh, give it two weeks max. You'll see dozens of threads posting how to get around the nerfs.
But, considering 4E is based on MMORPGs and they're attracting more of the MMORPG fan base...what is it that these folks do best?
Min-max.
MMO players have NOTHING on D&D players when it comes to min-maxing. People who don't even have gaming groups have entertained themselves on the character optimization boards for years using 3.5's new feats, items and rules loopholes.
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I think the only evidence to power creep seems to be in the "feel"
or "flavor" of pcs. I mean a 1st level party beating a large black
dragon( I did read that right didn't I...some of the DnD EXperience delves had the 1st level pcs facing off against such a foe?). It just "sounds" tougher than 1st level 3.x pcs could ever manage.
Now, the actual changes to when you can fly and turn invisible seems to be a definite nerf ,but how about all the 1st level teleporting affects( Eladrin and Warlock curse)...I mean, teleport feels a lot more powerful to me than fly or invisibility....but are the teleport effects that much more powerful in actual combat...doesn't seem to be...but the idea of a 1st level pc teleporting right out of the gate sounds way powerful...and let's not forget the stamina of these 1st level pcs...hit points, healing surges...they simply last longer...longer work day and all.
I guess my ramblings amount to:
mechanics seem a little nerfed within the system
but flavor/feel seems UBER.
Just my 2 cents.
There's almost no way the first level pregens should be able to beat that fourth level dragon.
But the teleport is just a flavor term. When I ran it I called it 'tumbling' (regardless of the terminology).
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I like your take of the teleport being tumbling,but that would be kind of tough to describe if the Eladrin is teleporting up to the top of a building...he can do that right? as long as it is within 5 squares( ie, 25 feet)...thanks for the link on the dragon fight...and it looks as if people are split as to whether the dragon is truly beatable...but anything more than a 5% chance to beat a large dragon at 1st level just feels goofy to me.
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But the teleport is just a flavor term. When I ran it I called it 'tumbling' (regardless of the terminology).
Except it is not just a flavor term.
Tumble is a specific rogue power that allows a specific type of movement.Fey Step and Misty Step are different specific powers that allow a different specific type of movement.
Calling it tumbling will confuse it with the Tumble Rogue Utility Power, as well as severely compromise the concepts behind all three powers. (A trained power, a racial ability, and a class ability.)
...but anything more than a 5% chance to beat a large dragon at 1st level just feels goofy to me.
Good news, then. I'm pretty sure that dragon TPKed about 95% of tables. Apparently, the designers felt the need to put in really difficult final encounters as a response to all the "4e means you can never die" threads.
As it stands now, I've had people complain 4e is too complicated, 4e is too dumbed-down, combats in 4e run too slowly, combats in 4e run too quickly, 4e is too deadly, and 4e is too easy on players. I'm pretty sure at least half of those complaints are ill-founded.
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There's almost no way the first level pregens should be able to beat that fourth level dragon.
But the teleport is just a flavor term. When I ran it I called it 'tumbling' (regardless of the terminology).
Did you also allow it to always work? Or perhaps work if the character killed someone he pre-designated target?
I'm no fan of 4e, but I have to say, this is a very poor way of comparing the two situations. Tumbling goes up in DC, slowly becomes easier, and is sometimes impossible given the wrong ground. Teleporting allows you to always dodge AoOs, and only works either 1/encounter (Fey Step) or if you kill the cursed target (which requires multiple saves and targeting).
I know the players who made up the group that beat the dragon. Of the six members of the party, 4 had practiced 4.0 by using the 4.0 like rules from D&D books (the names of the books escape me). They basically knew the rules and were able to manipulate the field of battle. They also were able to take full advantage of the second wind and heal capabilities. From the way it was described to me, they simply outlasted the black dragon. I've also been told that this group figured out a long time ago that almost every encounter could be outlasted for the most part with the new rules. From reading the gamers noters I concluded that the game is heavily tilted to the players advantage.
Lots of disagreement here. I'm not going to do all this in quotes.
-Increase in hit points without increase in damage makes monsters more difficult to defeat before alarms are raised
I don't know about this, I heard about 1st level characters doing 20 points of damage and not on a crit.
-Instantaneous Save or Die Spells Removed
Well they don't want to do it to players, so they can't have players doing it.
-Magic Missile is not Auto-Hit
Which is less powerful: having a 1st level character use MagMiss hit 3 times a day or having a 1st level character be able to use MagMiss every single round, but have to make a roll?
-Rangers can't cast spells
They'll have it replaced with something else (at lower levels)
-No buffs to ability scores (Guantlets of Ogre Power, for example)
So? that's just a raw number you're looking at. 3.5 assumed that players ability scores would rise faster then once per 4 levels and the game pretty much requires that you get these items. If 4E does not make the assumption that your ability scores will rise that fast, then simply looking at the raw numbers means nothing.
-Skill points are removed
And replaced with a trained/untrained option that functions the same. What's your point?
-Sneak attack damage reduced significantly
But rogues are assumed to sneak attack as often as wizards are assumed to cast a spell like magic missle. Nothing is immune to sneak attack damage.
-Baseline sneak attack, saves and hit points reduce min-max options
I think you're looking at only half the equation. I see min-max options enhanced.
-Iterative Attacks Removed
WHERE?!?
CNB...if it is indeed 95% then I can live with it...
Also, to ally (aley? how do you spell that word anyway?) your fears, I believe the *smallest* dragon in the 4E MM is large. So, large black dragon or not, it was still probably a baby black dragon. I hope I don't run into mama! :o!
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-Magic Missile is not Auto-Hit
Which is less powerful: having a 1st level character use MagMiss hit 3 times a day or having a 1st level character be able to use MagMiss every single round, but have to make a roll?
So instead of a wizard using a crossbow every round, he spits out magic missles every round. Yay. The point is Magic missiles is supposed to be an "unerring" it's been like that forever. Ray of Frost or something else could have been made into the default weapon for wizards.
So instead of a wizard using a crossbow every round, he spits out magic missles every round.
Yep. And that's why magic in 4E is much less magical. That's why 4E bores me already.
I don't know about this, I heard about 1st level characters doing 20 points of damage and not on a crit.
That's neither average nor at will. And even if it was (again it isn't) that increase is not proportional to the increase in hit points.
-Instantaneous Save or Die Spells Removed
Well they don't want to do it to players, so they can't have players doing it.
Again, it's not power on the players. It's just a measure of power overall, on both sides of the screen. Removing these is a major decrease in power.
-Magic Missile is not Auto-Hit
Which is less powerful: having a 1st level character use MagMiss hit 3 times a day or having a 1st level character be able to use MagMiss every single round, but have to make a roll?
IME, around 4th level every wizard I've ever seen has had a wand of magic missile instead of a crossbow. For 15 gold a shot it's a negligible resource from a metagame perspective, like a wand of cure light wounds.
-Rangers can't cast spells
They'll have it replaced with something else (at lower levels)
I forgot to mention animal compansions.
-No buffs to ability scores (Guantlets of Ogre Power, for example)
So? that's just a raw number you're looking at. 3.5 assumed that players ability scores would rise faster then once per 4 levels and the game pretty much requires that you get these items. If 4E does not make the assumption that your ability scores will rise that fast, then simply looking at the raw numbers means nothing.
3.5 doesn't assume that at all, it assumes wealth and the use of spells. Within that is a very large power curve and the player who doesn't use those buffs ends up screwed because many DMs (like your suggest) assume that you get buffs to your scores. 4e flattens that curve.
-Skill points are removed
And replaced with a trained/untrained option that functions the same. What's your point?
See above about the power curve. You have some players who are so skilled that there's no way a DM can present a challenge. Some PCs aren't going to be make the check without bypassing the challenge (through magic). Now factor in monsters, who also aren't going to have those checks, and you're screwed. Very common examples include skills that every single adventurer should improve at as they adventure: surprise from spot and listen, balance checks, jumping, swimming, etc. By flattening the curve, both monsters and PCs are on a more even playing field, which means the relative power ratio is more even. This is a nerf.
-Sneak attack damage reduced significantly
But rogues are assumed to sneak attack as often as wizards are assumed to cast a spell like magic missle. Nothing is immune to sneak attack damage.
I don't know very many PCs who are immune to sneak attack. The power is on the DM's side too.
This is also an example of 3.5 making it harder for simulationist sandbox play. If players can choose their own adventures they can target enemies that aren't undead or constructs or plants.
(There are also 3.5 feats and items that either grant sneak attack or debuff enemies immune to sneak attack.)
-Baseline sneak attack, saves and hit points reduce min-max options
I think you're looking at only half the equation. I see min-max options enhanced.
How so?
-Iterative Attacks Removed
WHERE?!?
You do not receive iterative attacks from base attack progression anymore.
So instead of a wizard using a crossbow every round, he spits out magic missles every round.Yep. And that's why magic in 4E is much less magical. That's why 4E bores me already.
While Magic Missiles are far more ubiquitous, spells like Fly are much harder to find. So I'd argue magic is more magical. Tastes and flavors come in all stripes (does flavor come in stripes?)
Cheers! :)
I can see and agree with the nerfing. Fly and Invisibility at 16th level? Wow.
Assuming 1-30 is 1-20, as they've stated before, that's like getting Fly and Invisibility at 10th-level in past editions, equivalent to a 5th-level spell.
But, considering 4E is based on MMORPGs and they're attracting more of the MMORPG fan base...what is it that these folks do best?
Min-max.
I believe the nerfs will easily be countered, oh, give it two weeks max. You'll see dozens of threads posting how to get around the nerfs.
According to Chris Pramas' experience of one game, DnD 4e is like a CCG. I've never played a CCG or MMORPG, but I am looking forward to playing DnD 4e.
As far as the claim that 4e is "unbreakable", well my gaming group hasn't seen the 4e rules yet. If it's broken, they'll find it. Then they'll exploit it like a cheap hooker, as they've done to 3rd edition.
I can't wait!!!!
According to Chris Pramas' experience of one game, DnD 4e is like a CCG. I've never played a CCG or MMORPG, but I am looking forward to playing DnD 4e.As far as the claim that 4e is "unbreakable", well my gaming group hasn't seen the 4e rules yet. If it's broken, they'll find it. Then they'll exploit it like a cheap hooker, as they've done to 3rd edition.
I can't wait!!!!
Chris Pramas is right, I believe. It is like a CCG. It's also like a Minis game. WotC is best at making CCGs, and this was stated by tons of people many years ago that D&D in the hands of WotC means the death of D&D. Because they'll just turn it into a CCG game like MtG or Pokemon.
Hence, 3.0e to 3.5e and now 4E...all within the span of just 8 years.
I didn't understand my hobby shop owner back on Long Island when he said D&D under WotC is going to kill the game eventually...I was 15 years old and purchasing another 2E book with my best friend. Now his words have been echoing in my head the past couple of months.
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Power 'creep' doesn't feel right. This feels more like Power 'surge.'
But it's also applying to the monsters, with those 30 hit point Kobolds, so it just seems that the game is being made to take longer, not necessarily *harder.* With each class having an abundance of features, many situational and only usable if certain conditions are met, and various 'debuffs' and modifiers changing round by round depending on what the Warlord is ranting about this time, it seems to me that individual rounds of combat will be much more variable (and math-ier), and with the increased pools of hit points (and decreased effectiveness of sudden-death effects like save-or-dies and critical hits), it will be much more of an attrition game, with the damage-dealers slowly whittling down the mobs in a game of give and take, instead of blowing away goblins or orcs in a single hit and cleaving through to see if you can get a two-fer.
In some aspects, this sounds interesting. I kinda liked GURPS combats, which often took many rounds of back and forth to resolve, but it's going to be a new experience for D&D.
The many modifiers thing seems *way* more complicated and like it would slow things down, but the designers seem to think that they will speed things up. Remains to be seen. Almost any system speeds up with familiarity, and perhaps 4E is as fast as checkers to Mike Mearls by this point. With a little familiarity, perhaps I will end up agreeing that it streamlines faster than 3rd Edition. Or maybe I just won't 'get it,' and it will always be slower and fussier than 3E for me. We'll see.