I have heard a lot of complaints about save or die effects. Now there are plenty of ways to stop save or die effects (boost your save, luck domain rerolls, death ward, etc.). If you wanted something easy, here is a spell for you:
Displace Death
Necromancy (Transmutation)
Level: Clr 7, Sor 7, Wiz 7, Protection 7
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: One creature
Duration: 24 hours or until discharged
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No
Feeling his life force being extinguished, Rizal thanks his foresight as unconsciousness takes him. On his fallen body a small doll crumbles to dust in his place.
This spell protects a person from death effects. Any death effect that would instantly slay the target instead reduces the person to -1 hit points and causes them to be unconscious for 1d4+1 rounds. The HP damage can be cured normally through magic or natural healing but the unconsciousness must wear off naturally (1d4+1 rounds later). This is due to the backlash from the destructive energy that had targeted the person.
This spell does not protect a person from negative energy effects, energy drains, death from damage or from any other effects besides save or die effects (destruction, finger of death, circle of death, wail of the banshee, etc.).
Material Components
A small doll for the person touched. The doll requires wax, alchemical ingredients and at least one hair or drop of blood from the person to be protected. The doll costs a minimum of 250gp per doll.
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Also if you want it easier to protect the whole group just change it to being one person per 5 levels or even one per three. You could also raise or lower the material component cost.
If you want the protection without the spell just adjudicate that a death effect now knocks you to -1 and guarantees unconsciousness for 1d4+1 rounds.
Tell me what you think.
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Well death ward already protects you from all of those effects, and all negative energy effects and it's only 4th level. What would the point of this spell be? If it combined the effects of death ward, delay death, and protected from fear effects (since some of those can kill you) it would be a good 7th level spell. It seems a litte weak for its level as written.
Well death ward already protects you from all of those effects, and all negative energy effects and it's only 4th level. What would the point of this spell be? If it combined the effects of death ward, delay death, and protected from fear effects (since some of those can kill you) it would be a good 7th level spell. It seems a litte weak for its level as written.
It protects against instant death effects (including Phantasmal Killer). The key though is that death ward is 4th level and last 1 min/level. This spell lasts 24 hours. Also it is set to "arrive" in the player's spell lists at about the same time as most of the instant kill spells (destruction, finger of death, symbol of death, etc.).
From the PHB2-Alter Fortune 3rd level cast as immediate allows a re-roll of any die. Available to all casters, can't go wrong with this one.
I like save or die spells, and I like that they work both ways.
But for the complainers, how about this option (stolen from our transformers game):
Save or die spells are not instantaneous. The character dies after one full round. AND the spell can be negated with the death of its caster.
We call that a "Get To Work" gun, and it makes casting it risky as (s)he becomes Public Enemy #1.
Note also that the duration allows someone to counter it before its effect takes place.
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IMO, it would be easier to just house rule save or dies to drop the target to Disabled or Dying, rather than Rapidly Cooling Slab of Meat. Or use them sparingly. Or something cleverer still that I haven't considered. Limiting resistance to 'save or dies' to people who happen to have a 7th level spell pre-cast seems kinda counter-the-point.
There are something like 40 WotC books available for 3.5. Nothing says we have to use EVERY spell, feat, monster, etc. presented in those books.
Eventually something will come out for 4th Edition that is problematic and all these people who are *utterly incapable* of not using save or dies are going to be paralyzed and helpless, unable to choose not to use this new 4th Edition rules mechanic, forced to await 5th Edition to save them. (Not really, but they sure sound pretty helpless in the face of 3.5 mechanics that they don't find fun...)
I do wonder what happens when something comes on the TV that these folk don't want to watch. Are they *forced* to view everything presented to them uncritically, unable to change the channel or get up off of the couch? When a plate of food is dropped in front of them, do they *have* to eat every single thing, even the stuff they hate (or might even be allergic to!)? 'Cause D&D's just like that. Use what works for you. Mike Mearls isn't going to come into your house with team of Rules Ninja to beat you up if you decide not to use Harm, or Locathah, or the Book of Nine Swords.
Mike Mearls isn't going to come into your house with team of Rules Ninja to beat you up if you decide not to use Harm, or Locathah, or the Book of Nine Swords.
*WHEW* Thank god. I have been worrying about that for months now.
Now I just have to worry about the normal non-rules ninjas.
There are something like 40 WotC books available for 3.5. Nothing says we have to use EVERY spell, feat, monster, etc. presented in those books.
Eventually something will come out for 4th Edition that is problematic and all these people who are *utterly incapable* of not using save or dies are going to be paralyzed and helpless, unable to choose not to use this new 4th Edition rules mechanic, forced to await 5th Edition to save them. (Not really, but they sure sound pretty helpless in the face of 3.5 mechanics that they don't find fun...)
You hit the proverbial nail on the head...with a natural 20.
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I like having to make that save. Its better than the alternative of not being able to influence my character's fate. Its the difference between Armor Class and how resistant someone is to poison. AC is static(mostly, its one of three numbers), Fortitude is dicey(pun intended) and can be more easily influenced.
You want your Armor Class to go up? Go buy more armor, get armor magic items, boost your Dexterity, and so forth.
You want your Fortitude Save to go up? Roll high. Make choices that grant you circumstance bonuses.
For example, my party at one point walked into a chamber with a lot of noxious fumes. I had my character take part of his robes and wrap them around the lower half of his face to help filter the air. My character, and the Druid(who had immunity to poison) were the only two who didn't get sick and have to leave. Hell, I'd like to roll my AC every now and then if my DM would let me.
There are something like 40 WotC books available for 3.5. Nothing says we have to use EVERY spell, feat, monster, etc. presented in those books.
The problem is ingrained into the core mechanics though.
And a spell that completely negates these effects might as well be applied to everyone all the time. Or be hit with a dispel magic and THEN save or die.
Still dumb. The system just doesn't work the same at high levels; it's poorly designed for gamist challenges. (RPGA and Pregen Mods are very fun at the sweet spot, otherwise they require DM coddling and attention that defeats the purpose of premade tourney material.)
And with regard to an 'official rules solution' to this problem, which you perceive, you hope that 4E will provide an answer- or at least a better playing experience for a gamist style play?
It's certainly not useless, but it could use improvements. I see 4th edition as an evolution of the d20 system. WotC has had 8 years to observe how others freely play with the gamist mechanics and now they're doing a rebuild. From what they're describing it sounds very promising.
And I've yet to see how it robs anyone of other playstyles, like creating a Laissez-faire sandbox or building an intriguing mystery.
Gamism in 3.5 is broken in many areas. I don't see how these fixes are ruining (or for that matter, even impacting) simulationism or narrativism at all. Just ignore the CR system and you can pretty much build whatever you want. You have to do that in 3.5 also if you really want simulationist and narrativist play.
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Well death ward already protects you from all of those effects, and all negative energy effects and it's only 4th level. What would the point of this spell be? If it combined the effects of death ward, delay death, and protected from fear effects (since some of those can kill you) it would be a good 7th level spell. It seems a litte weak for its level as written.It protects against instant death effects (including Phantasmal Killer). The key though is that death ward is 4th level and last 1 min/level. This spell lasts 24 hours. Also it is set to "arrive" in the player's spell lists at about the same time as most of the instant kill spells (destruction, finger of death, symbol of death, etc.).
I thought that death ward lasted longer than that. I guess you could just make an improved death ward or even a mass death ward. A mass improved death ward would make a good 8th or 9th level spell.
To elaborate on the idea, PC named Jacoha Meetsak gets hit with a heightened Destruction, Fort save DC 26 by evil cleric Rellik. Too bad for Meetsak, he fails the save.
He doesn't drop immediately (as his body is going through the beginning stages of crumble-fest), and instead can act normally until the beginning of Rellik's next turn (or, alternatively, the end of Meetsak's).
This gives Meetsak and his allies a round to kill Rellik before he succumbs to the spell. Also, Meetsak and his allies could cast a dispel magic on the inflicted Meetsak to end the condition, provided they make they caster check roll.
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Mike Mearls isn't going to come into your house with team of Rules Ninja to beat you up if you decide not to use Harm, or Locathah, or the Book of Nine Swords.
They tried sending the Rules Ninjas after me once. They're really easy to hear coming because of all the rustling paper, and they were completely unprepared for a nonstandard dragon's lair.
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He doesn't drop immediately (as his body is going through the beginning stages of crumble-fest), and instead can act normally until the beginning of Rellik's next turn (or, alternatively, the end of Meetsak's).
This gives Meetsak and his allies a round to kill Rellik before he succumbs to the spell. Also, Meetsak and his allies could cast a dispel magic on the inflicted Meetsak to end the condition, provided they make they caster check roll.
A good option. I'm partial to dropping them straight to -1, in the case of a 'death spell,' just to make it take them out of the fight, but not result in instant death, assuming allies to help. On the other hand, my preferred version might as well be 'save or die' in a solo adventure, since there won't be any allies to stop the -1 from rapidly turning into 'Dead.'
He doesn't drop immediately (as his body is going through the beginning stages of crumble-fest), and instead can act normally until the beginning of Rellik's next turn (or, alternatively, the end of Meetsak's).
This gives Meetsak and his allies a round to kill Rellik before he succumbs to the spell. Also, Meetsak and his allies could cast a dispel magic on the inflicted Meetsak to end the condition, provided they make they caster check roll.
A good option. I'm partial to dropping them straight to -1, in the case of a 'death spell,' just to make it take them out of the fight, but not result in instant death, assuming allies to help. On the other hand, my preferred version might as well be 'save or die' in a solo adventure, since there won't be any allies to stop the -1 from rapidly turning into 'Dead.'
Yes and no. In a one player campaign it would be a great "your captured" spell. Also it means death spells are fine death or capture spells. An easy way to get that villian in for questioning. Just keep him alive when he hits -1.