Just a quick query for advice on a small campaign issue that has come up with regard to mass resist energy from the Spell Compendium:
I have a player who has requested for his wizard PC to gain use of this spell. My policy for this campaign is that PCs can learn a limited number of spells from the Spell Compendium through research (or treasure handed out by the DM, or purchased scrolls), and that as DM I have the power to veto the entry of non-core spells into the game, or modify them as I see fit.
The issue I have with this spell is that the SC rating of its power level seems way low: it's a 3rd level spell for clerics and druids, and a 4th level spell for sorcerers and wizards. I'd rate it as a 6th level spell, because the base spell is 2nd level, and it has the same target parameters (1 character/level, no 2 characters more than 30 ft apart) as the mass versions of other 2nd level buff spells in the PH, like bull's strength, cat's grace, etc. Based on the examples in the PH, the trade-off for making a spell mass is a four-level increase in power--this is true for both the ability buff series of spells and for the cure wounds series, and the only exception is mass invisibility, which allows a wider spread for its targets, but in exchange for a five-level increase (2nd to 7th).
My player argues that resist energy is more narrowly applicable than cure or ability buff spells, and that it would not be attractive at all to waste a 6th-level spell slot on a mass version of it when you could have another chain lightning or disintegrate handy. However, I don't see how the ability to affect 1 target/level can be worth 4 levels for cure moderate wounds or bull's strength but only worth 1 or 2 levels for resist energy. The spell may be more narrowly applicable, in the sense that you have to key in on one type of energy, whereas you almost always can use healing or an increase in strength--however, that narrow applicability is offset by an increased duration (10 min/level vice 1 min/level).
I've offered to consider some sort of compromise between the SC's rating and my own inclinations, but the bottom line is that I think this is a really powerful spell, and since our campaign features a lot of draconic enemies (the players know this already), offering the spell at the level-rating in the SC is liable to unbalance the game, because it will allow one 4th level spell to give the entire party a significant resistance to the breath weapons of most of the boss monsters.
Has anyone else had experience with this spell, or does anyone have a good reason why I should rate it below 6th level?
In the STAP campaigne where I'm playing, our cleric has tried some of the mass spells of the Spell Compendium, especially Mass Resist Energy and Mass Aid.
Both party and DM agre to say that the Mass spells in the SC are really too powerful for their level and should be 1 or 2 levels higher.
I can kinda go either way on this one. The mass cure spells are useful nomatter what the situation also keep in mind moving a cure spell from range touch to a burst is a much bigger deal that a resist energy or stat bonus spell like Bull's strength. I can see why the level bump for those one. The mass stat bonus spells have a good duration so they are good for multiple fights or encounters and are not dependent on what creatures are in that fight or encounter. The mass resist energy have a nice duration as well which could be used in multiple fights or encounters but realy how many encounters in a ro do you really have where being resistant to a particular energy come in handy. Sure there are adventures where it will be great because your in a volcano or something where fire resistance would be great. There are other where you fight a wizard and are resist to his lightning bolt but that's it so the 1 min/level spell (or whatever it is) is only useful for 5 rounds. If you feel the need to bump up the level on them I wouldn't do it anymore than one level. Just my opinion. I've been in a game where the wizard has had it and it didn't really tunr the tides or make us uber as far as I can remember.
I'd get rid of it altogether. It removes too much excitement from the game. Facing a dragon? Cast your Mass Resist and we all gain immunity from one of the major attacks. Boring.
I would say bump it up to meet the other spells. If anything I would argue it was the most useful of all the mass spells.
It's overpowered. When they converted to 3.5 they said if there was a spell that was the must have for the level, then it's probably over-powered. Unaltered, the spell was a must have for the clerics in the 4 games I run. I've bumped it up a level, as new campaigns started, but we haven't gotten far enough to see if it is still a must have.
I agree with Ghettowedge: it's a must-have spell at 3rd level, and pretty good at 4th level. I'd personally set the level at 5th for both clerics and sorcerer/wizards.
Setting spell levels is a tricky thing. I won't tell you what level Mass Resist should be... But here are a few points to remember.
1) Defensive magic (spells, items, class abilities, etc.) are easier to acquire than offensive spells.
2) Now, it may be splitting hairs, but the buff spells could be considered offensive. Not directly, but most of them can be used by someone to increase their combat effectiveness. (To Hit values, Direct damage output, Damage output by raising DCs... Etc.)
3) Cure spells can also be offensive - against undead.
4) And finally, all this spell does is save the wizard some XP from scribing multiple Resist Energy scrolls.
Ultimately, it really depends on how powerful the spell is in your game. If you tend to put your players up against single opponents, this spell is more powerful than if you pit them against multiple. (Energy Resistance is versus damage per round. Mass Resist Energy-Fire is powerful against 1 Fireballing Wizard... But hardly worth anything against 5+ Fireballing Wizards.)
And the typical level bump for adding Mass to a spell in the PHB ranges from 2 to 5 levels... Hardly conclusive.
(I personally don't see a problem with leaving it 3rd level. But then again, YMMV.)
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In the PHB, Cats Grace and Mass Cats Grace is a 4 level jump for a BUFF spell.
This is how I did it when the Spell Compendium came out.
Buffs have a 3 level jump.
Offensive have a 4 level jump.
Everything else is 3 level jump.
Going from a base spell(ie Cats Grace) to a mass version should be at least 3 level jump, IMO!!!
4) And finally, all this spell does is save the wizard some XP from scribing multiple Resist Energy scrolls.
Mass spells do a bit more than that. They save time, in rounds. Whether using scrolls or spell slots (that's another resource expenditure mass spells can cut down on), it would still take time to cast the same spell on so many targets. In many combats, by the time you cast a spell enough times to approximate the effects of a mass spell, the combat has ended and your efforts might well be wasted. Certainly, you'll have found it difficult to contribute in other significant ways while adopting this strategy, and the usefulness of the strategy itself is debatable. The mass spells thus save the most precious commodity of all: time. And by altering the number of targets which can be affected in the same casting time, it keeps certain spell effects relevant in the game that would otherwise become obsolete.
Further, all spells are not created equal. Fireball is, most of the time, better than sepia snake sigil, for example. Both are 3rd level spells and both are in the PHB. I can't claim to know if this is the reason that certain mass spells involve a bigger spell jump than others. But it is something to consider, particularly in this regard: the buff spells like bull's strength begin to loose their relevance as soon as party members start getting stat boosters of +4 or greater. Both apply enhancement bonuses, and thus do not stack. So, if all the front-line combatants have belts of giant strength +4 by the time you get mass bull's strength, the spell actually isn't so useful after all. The mages don't really need the strength buff and it's not an effective use of resources to give it to them. Of course this will vary by party, and characters like clerics and rogues are certainly likely to still appreciate the buff. But it isn't at it's peak usefulness, because the party already likely has items replicating its effect on a constant basis. In fact, for those characters with the stat boosters, the mass buff spell is obsolete.
Now compare that to mass resist energy. I wouldn't say it's much harder to come by energy resistance items (mainly rings), although they can be expensive; but rather, they aren't the big ticket, must have items that stat boosters are. Thus many players will never purchace one. This makes a spell like mass resist energy all the more powerful, typically speaking, because it provides a buff that isn't likely to already be replicated by party items.
Just something to take into consideration.
Energy Resistance is versus damage per round. Mass Resist Energy-Fire is powerful against 1 Fireballing Wizard... But hardly worth anything against 5+ Fireballing Wizards.
Energy Resitance was per round in 3.0, but now it is per attack !!! That's why this spell is so powerful.
Energy Resistance is versus damage per round. Mass Resist Energy-Fire is powerful against 1 Fireballing Wizard... But hardly worth anything against 5+ Fireballing Wizards.Energy Resitance was per round in 3.0, but now it is per attack !!! That's why this spell is so powerful.
That is not true according to D20srd.org... But I'll double check with my 3.5 MM in a moment.
EDIT:: Hmmm... Noir le Lotus is correct. According to the 3.5 MM, Resistance to Energy is per attack now.
Mass spells do a bit more than that. They save time, in rounds.
There is that, of course. But with the duration of Resist Energy being 10 minutes per level, I wouldn't expect the spell to be cast multiple times during combat.
Mass spells do a bit more than that. They save time, in rounds.There is that, of course. But with the duration of Resist Energy being 10 minutes per level, I wouldn't expect the spell to be cast multiple times during combat.
It would be if you were trying to shield your whole party from energy attacks, like the mass version. Of course the whole time factor is moot if you have time to prepare for an enemy and know what to expect. But in the very frequent case where that isn't an option, the mass version of this spell would be immensely useful.
Somewhere between 5th and 7th level sounds about right, I guess, but that's more of just a gut feeling.
The problem with this spell is it simply gives one energy hesitance 10. At low level thats pretty sweet but its not much consolation when the dragon breathes on you for 90 points of damage. Making that into 80 is helpful and all but the whole party is still screaming "Medic".
I suspect thats what lowered the level of the mass version of the spell. Energy Resistance 10 is just really loosing its lustre as levels go up and average damage from the monsters energy based attacks climb from 5-10 points points to 50-100 points.
The problem with this spell is it simply gives one energy hesitance 10. At low level thats pretty sweet but its not much consolation when the dragon breathes on you for 90 points of damage. Making that into 80 is helpful and all but the whole party is still screaming "Medic".
I suspect thats what lowered the level of the mass version of the spell. Energy Resistance 10 is just really loosing its lustre as levels go up and average damage from the monsters energy based attacks climb from 5-10 points points to 50-100 points.
Yeah, except that the spell gets beter as you level. 20 at 7th, and 30 at 11th.
I'm considering eliminating "mass X" as basic spells, and instead creating a "Mass Spell" metamagic feat with a +4 level adjustment. This would allow you to recreate mass bull's strength, etc., but also make, say, mass aid or mass hold person. For a lower level bump, the caster could invest in the Easy Metamagic feat.
Oooh. Thanks much, folks, for all the discussion and advice. This is quite helpful.
I had the same thought as Kirth Gersen when I was researching this problem. If you look at the mass versions of spells, they are almost universally a 4 level bump, and have a similar change in range of spell. However, I tend not to make houserules unless they are absolutely needed, and I think this one is the sort of rule I might incorporate into a revision of the rules (wonder if they're doing this for 4.0), but probably wouldn't add to my home game.
Keep it coming. I might have been talked down to 5th level, but probably not any lower.
Thats all well and good as long as you have a round or 2 of warning before you fight said dragon. I guess it comes down to the one major lesson I've learned from 3.5. If your party knows what it is facing, and has a couple rounds to buff, you probably win.
Or just make sure you have an Abjurant Champion, so you can cast an auto-extended mass resist elements as a swift action.