One my players plays a Sea Kin druid. Last session she summoned an enormous water elemental around her and then shape shifted into an equal size aquatic creature (a giant squid.) I was pretty stunned and it was during a minor encounter so I let it slide since it was a cool effect but let them know I would come up with a final ruling later. The squid reach was very useful.
What do you guy think?
I came up with:
-She cannot summon it around her, it must be next to her, then she can use a move action to dive into it (not a 5 foot step) or it can move onto her (not a five foot step unless she is medium size).
-She cannot fit inside the elemental unless she is one size category smaller.
Not sure about:
-Anyone making attacks on them can attack either one with no penalty (How can you miss the big tentacles sticking out. :)
-or the druid can choose use the creature for 50% cover but any attack that misses automatically hit the elemental (It is throwing itself in the way)
-Reach is halved for an aquatic creature out of water? (no buoyancy... hmm this one sounds weak)
One my players plays a Sea Kin druid. Last session she summoned an enormous water elemental around her and then shape shifted into an equal size aquatic creature (a giant squid.) I was pretty stunned and it was during a minor encounter so I let it slide since it was a cool effect but let them know I would come up with a final ruling later. The squid reach was very useful.
What do you guy think?
I came up with:
-She cannot summon it around her, it must be next to her, then she can use a move action to dive into it (not a 5 foot step) or it can move onto her (not a five foot step unless she is medium size).
-She cannot fit inside the elemental unless she is one size category smaller.Not sure about:
-Anyone making attacks on them can attack either one with no penalty (How can you miss the big tentacles sticking out. :)
-or the druid can choose use the creature for 50% cover but any attack that misses automatically hit the elemental (It is throwing itself in the way)
-Reach is halved for an aquatic creature out of water? (no buoyancy... hmm this one sounds weak)
Kudos to you for not slapping her down for being creative! Your first couple restrictions sound reasonable. (Though I think it sounds nifty to be able to summon it around oneself.) Your last restrictions don't sound unreasonable, but I would avoid making it overly complicated. Perhaps, you could let her by with relatively few restrictions by requiring the summons spell to simply be cast as one level higher or have a longer casting time or something similar.
I may have to steal that idea myself! :D
I don't think you can be INSIDE a water elemental, even when its in water. It still has a physical body, even if it is made of water. There is a difference between "water as part of the environment" and "water as part of a creature".
Humans are mostly water, yet we cannot occupy the same space. Water elementals might be all water, but they still need their own watery substance so to say. Putting a creature inside them would do them grievous harm.
Of course, you can use a water elemental as a mount, but that's another matter.
I like the concept, (kudos to your druid) but I see abuse farther down the line. If you could simply step into an elemental a failed grapple check could lead to automatic death by drowning three rounds later, or you could have a handy (animated) tower shield from behind which to shoot your ballista.
Two options. The elemental is not an elemental in the mechanical sense. That is strips its attacks/moves as it (or the druid) concentrates on providing the druid openings and movements. Or a new spell "Summon fishbowl" that provides a watery place for aquatic critters (combine summon elemental, create water, freedom of movement for the mechanics). Come to think of it freedom of movement might be enough-just describe its fluff as a water elemental. Or a new feat: altered summoning (metamagic) this allows one type of summoned critter (such as a water elemental or gelatinous cube) to act as an environment for the areas it occupies. If you want actual mechanics for these let me know and I will give it a shot.
Ok that is three, but only two are good.
I will let you decide which two (or none :).
I don't think you can be INSIDE a water elemental, even when its in water. It still has a physical body, even if it is made of water. There is a difference between "water as part of the environment" and "water as part of a creature".
Humans are mostly water, yet we cannot occupy the same space. Water elementals might be all water, but they still need their own watery substance so to say. Putting a creature inside them would do them grievous harm.
Of course, you can use a water elemental as a mount, but that's another matter.
well, actually I for one have always envisioned being grappled and engulfed by an elemental as being sucked into its (malleable) body. If the elemental/druid combo is of the proper size combination it should work
although I might apply the following caveats - area effects hit both of them, physical attacks strike as if into a grapple. Casting across the water/elemental "skin" barrier may not work as line of effect gets interrupted.
but that's just me...
I don't think you can be INSIDE a water elemental, even when its in water. It still has a physical body, even if it is made of water. There is a difference between "water as part of the environment" and "water as part of a creature".
Humans are mostly water, yet we cannot occupy the same space. Water elementals might be all water, but they still need their own watery substance so to say. Putting a creature inside them would do them grievous harm.
Of course, you can use a water elemental as a mount, but that's another matter.
I have to agree with Carl, an elemental is not a swarm and should not be able to occupy the same space. The body is a more solid form of water otherwise how would you be able to damage it and how would it be able to damage you.
So you are saying if you have resistance to fire you should be able to occupy the same space as a fire elemental?Of course it is your game and your perspective and it is a pretty creative use for a summon...
So you are saying if you have resistance to fire you should be able to occupy the same space as a fire elemental?
Sure can - just get grappled by it. Fire Resistance might not really help either, and suffocation may be a problem (oh well, let's keep realism out of DnD, I guess ).
Same goes for the whirlwind effect of an air-elemental, or the vortex of a watery one....
Wait, you can do the same thing with a horse (just mount it) or , behold , even a dragon.
A dragon can even put you into the same space with itself by swallowing you (not that that will help you much, except as a new experience...)
What is so strange about being in the same space as another creature ?
Humans are mostly water, yet we cannot occupy the same space. Water elementals might be all water, but they still need their own watery substance so to say. Putting a creature inside them would do them grievous harm.
lol - now with humans all that cellular matter will be rather irritated, even if it surrounds so much water.
Cellular matter an elemental does not have..... After all, one can be insode an ooze as well (just check corwn of the Kobold King for "Fun with Gelatinous Cubes" ), which certainly is denser than water....Or do you have an hydrologists expert opinion on the internal workings of a water elemental at hand ? In that case, will it hurt the elemental if I throw baking soda or lime at him ? Or will it just be dazed from the churning bubbles inside ?
Meh... this player is her first time playing D&D and not a power gamer looking to game the system. She had a cool idea and nice dramatic effect. I allowed the concept in my game world, I just wanted to tweak the rules to us here. I appreciate the advice everyone has had so far.
I will leave the theology/hydrology of the water elemental body composition in the official SRD20 cosmology to the experts... :)
This is what I finally came up with:
I kept these:
-She cannot summon it around her, it must be next to her, then she can use a move action to dive into it (not a 5 foot step) or it can move onto her (not a five foot step unless she is medium size).
-She cannot fit inside the elemental unless she is one size category smaller.
And I stole one from:
Perhaps, you could let her by with relatively few restrictions by requiring the summons spell to simply be cast as one level higher or have a longer casting time or something similar.
I may have to steal that idea myself! :D
-It may be summoned around yourself if cast at one level higher.
I then added:
-Anyone can attack either creature without penalty. (Because of its powerful essence in the center of the elemental she must stay on its "surface")
-Any movement needs to be shared (costs movement for both.)
-Spells effect both equally except the druid is immune to poison gas and the like (since she is underwater.)
Hmmm... I guess I should have clarified what I wanted before I asked for advice:
-Allow high level aquatic druid to assume her natural aquatic forms and remain effective in dry land combat, rewarding to the player's creativity.
-Not to set a precedent for Watery Power Armor that lets a waterbreathing spell caster blast away from a safe cocoon (a cocoon that hits back!)
-Not to set a precedent for Watery Attack platform that will whisk a character around in melee charging monsters to allow full attacks every round while soaking up damage.
-Simple, will not add a lot of rules to get in the way of the roleplaying.
I toyed with reducing fire damage or adding to reflex saves but the druid would not be using the creature as a meat shield (they are both diving for cover) and it added too much complexity.
I was not too concerned about realism and in the end my player was satisfied with my ruling.
Thanks for your advice guys!
@alarik
sounds nice, and tell your player that her idea got officially stolen for some weirdish (NPC) aquatic fey druids of mine
As a last caveat - watch out for her taking the "Aquatic Casting" feat (Lords of Madness) if she should already have the "Natural Spell" option, because that might just get tricky. But since you judge her to be anything but a power player.....