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I just discovered, buried within links, two free "purchases" of True20 conversions for Rules of the Runelords, i.e., Burnt Offerings and Skinsaw Murders. This got me curious about True20 as a roleplaying rulebook.
I like how versatile True20 is. I also like how skills have been condensed. Having a d20 for everything may take some getting used to, as would having only three classes.
That said, perhaps True20 could do a revision, by adding talent trees, which would give character to specific classes.
But of course, the big question is whether Paizo and Green Ronin could generate enough of a True20 following to leave WotC behind.
How many of you play it? What are your senses? I like some aspects of it, but am not completely sure about others. For instance, no hps? I like the SWSE Condition Track ... so the True20 route may not be that far of a stretch.
Anyhow ... thoughts?
Some of the True20 companion books have introduced ideas like holy warriors, a distinction between arcane and divine magic, and similar "D&D isms." I can't remember which ones, as I've just started looking through them, but they do seem to be interested in making sure that you can do a reasonable job of emulating a D&D world "in narrative," if not in complete game rules.
That having been said, from what I've heard True20 and Castles and Crusades were both going to create conversion documents. I don't think its so much a matter of Paizo going in this direction as much as people that love Paizo but want to move away from standard d20 games not loosing their "fix."
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That having been said, from what I've heard True20 and Castles and Crusades were both going to create conversion documents. I don't think its so much a matter of Paizo going in this direction as much as people that love Paizo but want to move away from standard d20 games not loosing their "fix."
Yup.
I just wish we C&C'ers still weren't waiting on our conversion documents.
=(
This intrigues me. What exactly is True20? I didn't get a chance to look through the book- does it have similarly-named classes and stuff or is it it's own thing?
Here a brief overview of the True20 (a system base on Steve Kenson's Mutants and Masterminds):
The beauty of true20 is that there is no real class and no restriction for character build. At first level, you pick a basic role for your character (Warrior, Expert or Adept) wich grant you a core class ability and then you choose at each level a new feat from your current role. You can create virtualy any DnD class with this system, without being constraint to follow the rigid class and sometime illogical progression of DnD character. For exemple if I want my character to be an expert of sneak attack, I could take Sneak attack five time in a row at each level progression of my Expert character. I want to take Uncanny dodge at first lvl? No problem. Of course, you choose wich Feat you want to take and should choose wisely or become quickly a one-trick poney (you can't have everything you want as your must select only one feat at each level)
It's a simpler version of the Core 3.5 D20 with quicker combat: hp are replace by a condition track and toughness save, no more AOO and your ability to defend yourself evolve as your progress with your basic attack bonus (armor only provide a DR bonus equivalent).
The power or magic system offer least versatility but most power cover a larger range of effects (for exemple Light Shaping give you the ability to create images (illusion), blur, invisibility and of course illuminate an area). You can apply metamagic feats to most powers to increase range, area or effects (so your flaming bolt could become a fireball by applying the Widen Power feat to your Fire shaping power).
The big difference with a standard 3.5E DnD gaming experience is that magical items don't have the same impact on your character (and you won't find as many in True20) and combat are a lot quicker (no HP attrition, so even high level combat should take only a few round).
ho... and heroes (and some major villains) got conviction points to change their dice roll and to cheat death...
I think that cover the basic of True20.
You should take a look there for more information: True20 Site.
I am really glad that they show some conversion of the pathfinder chronicles.
Here a brief overview of the True20 (a system base on Steve Kenson's Mutants and Masterminds):
The beauty of true20 is that there is no real class and no restriction for character build. At first level, you pick a basic role for your character (Warrior, Expert or Adept) wich grant you a core class ability and then you choose at each level a new feat from your current role. You can create virtualy any DnD class with this system, without being constraint to follow the rigid class and sometime illogical progression of DnD character. For exemple if I want my character to be an expert of sneak attack, I could take Sneak attack five time in a row at each level progression of my Expert character. I want to take Uncanny dodge at first lvl? No problem. Of course, you choose wich Feat you want to take and should choose wisely or become quickly a one-trick poney (you can't have everything you want as your must select only one feat at each level)
It's a simpler version of the Core 3.5 D20 with quicker combat: hp are replace by a condition track and toughness save, no more AOO and your ability to defend yourself evolve as your progress with your basic attack bonus (armor only provide a DR bonus equivalent).
The power or magic system offer least versatility but most power cover a larger range of effects (for exemple Light Shaping give you the ability to create images (illusion), blur, invisibility and of course illuminate an area). You can apply metamagic feats to most powers to increase range, area or effects (so your flaming bolt could become a fireball by applying the Widen Power feat to your Fire shaping power).
The big difference with a standard 3.5E DnD gaming experience is that magical items don't have the same impact on your character (and you won't find as many in True20) and combat are a lot quicker (no HP attrition, so even high level combat should take only a few round).
ho... and heroes (and some major villains) got conviction points to change their dice roll and to cheat death...
I think that cover the...
Hmm...this sounds interesting, but I don't think I'm ready to jump into it feet first.
RPG Superstar 2013
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I'm not interested in this. 3.5 DnD is the best system for drama or combat ever devised. The complications of the game might force you to look up the grapplae rulesevery now and then, but it also make the game more fun and cinematic, and character creation and leveling are the most fun I've ever had in a game.
I like the class system and the spellcasting system. The progression is fun, the game is balanced that way, and they are iconic. I would rather have a few more feats and class abilities and not rely quite so heavily on magic items, then again the game is balanced that way and we expect magic items. Making new ones is fun, characters can craft them (should take a little less time), the rules for them are pretty tight with little in the way of gray areas.
The current game is mechanically sound and has a lot of finesse. This is the system I want.
The folks at WotC are trying to save the hobby and meet the expectations of their investors. They have had a way of making each adjustment to the rules of the game different but better. From the jump to 3.0, to little recent tweaks like polymorph, 3.5 haste (and other spells), to variant clas features in UA; the brains behind the game are not going to sell us down the river, so we won't need new system. Their money depends on our happiness,and they know that.
I would like them to stop using the word 'powers', but I guess there are also feats and spells and abilities, so I should just wait to see what they look like.
Paizo doesn't need another system. The one we're getting is going to be fine.
3.5 DnD is the best system for drama or combat ever devised.
I disagree. True20 is a huge improvement. C&C is good if you want to take a step back, some people prefer tradition.
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Does anyone know whether Green Ronin intends to update True20? It wouldn't surprise me .. after 4e comes out. One thing I'd really be interested in seeing is the inclusion of Talent Trees. Also, I'm still pretty darned ignorant about the whole True20 thing. What's the sense about not having hps? It seems peculiar, but maybe that's because I'm so used to having them. (I do like Condition Tracks ... especially the way they are handled in SWSE.)
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What's the sense about not having hps? It seems peculiar, but maybe that's because I'm so used to having them.
Yeah, that's one of the things that keeps me from looking at True20 more. I like hit point in my fantasy gaming.
Modern gaming, I'm the opposite though. I want condition monitors in my modern stuff.
I disagree on 3.5 being cinematic; if anything I find it somewhat cumbersome. A truly cinematic game would be Feng Shui or perhaps an indy rpg like Shadow of Yesterday.
Creative Director
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Whatever system we go with... we have to be comfortable with the rules. We're already quite comfortable with 3.5, so if we don't change, that works out great.
Back when we switched to 3.5 from 3.0... there was a period of time when we had to unlearn the old set and learn the new set of rules, and that caused quite a bit of headaches and stress and frustration. And that was just a small change in editions. Switching to a new ruleset, be it 4th edition, True20, C&C, or whatever, would be a major investment, and we'd have to be absolutely sure that whatever system we're switching to can support the size of the audience we need to keep producing our products.
At this point, I'm fairly certain there aren't enough True20 or C&C players out there who ALSO would support our products. I could be wrong, of course, but I do know that there's CERTAINLY enough, right now, to support 3.5 versions. And unless it flops, there'll certainly be enough 4th edition players to support that customer base as well.
Whatever we choose to do, conversions to True20 and C&C will continue to be something Paizo supports. The actual conversion work isn't done by Paizo though, which is the key element that saves all of us at Paizo from having to learn different game systems. And that keeps us sane and from killing each other with stress, so that's a good thing.
Green Ronin only allows most companies to release 6 True20 products a year after the debacle with their fulfillment house cheating them, right? I understand their caution, but caps like that only curb your potential market.
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That having been said, from what I've heard True20 and Castles and Crusades were both going to create conversion documents. I don't think its so much a matter of Paizo going in this direction as much as people that love Paizo but want to move away from standard d20 games not loosing their "fix."Yup.
I just wish we C&C'ers still weren't waiting on our conversion documents.
=(
Do we know anything about the time the C&C conversion document will be available? Who's doing it?
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Do we know anything about the time the C&C conversion document will be available? Who's doing it?That having been said, from what I've heard True20 and Castles and Crusades were both going to create conversion documents. I don't think its so much a matter of Paizo going in this direction as much as people that love Paizo but want to move away from standard d20 games not loosing their "fix."Yup.
I just wish we C&C'ers still weren't waiting on our conversion documents.
=(
The Troll Lords have someone working on it. It is still, "In the works."
=/
Whatever we choose to do, conversions to True20 and C&C will continue to be something Paizo supports. The actual conversion work isn't done by Paizo though, which is the key element that saves all of us at Paizo from having to learn different game systems.
I understand that there is probably not enough supporters of True20 for Paizo to take this direction. But I've seen and like the conversion of the two first pathfinder chronicles and I much prefer True20 to the 3.5E DnD (mostly for it's flexibility and the way high level combat are quicker and more fun).
Does you support could extend to, for exemple, a full True20 Campain Pathfinder companion guide (something similar to the Freeport companion) with specifics True20 rules (character creation, race, background, adapted magic system) include in a True20 version of the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer (OGL)? Or could it be possible for Green Ronin to publish a True20 Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Monsters Revisited (OGL) with some shared profit distribution between your two companies?
Does Green Ronin have the right to publish conversion guide to all of your modules (pathfinder or gamemastery)?
Thanks!
Whatever we choose to do, conversions to True20 and C&C will continue to be something Paizo supports. The actual conversion work isn't done by Paizo though, which is the key element that saves all of us at Paizo from having to learn different game systems.I understand that there is probably not enough supporters of True20 for Paizo to take this direction. But I've seen and like the conversion of the two first pathfinder chronicles and I much prefer True20 to the 3.5E DnD (mostly for it's flexibility and the way high level combat are quicker and more fun).
Does your support could extend to, for exemple, a full True20 Campain Pathfinder companion guide (something similar to the Freeport companion) with specifics True20 rules (character creation, race, background, adapted magic system) include in a True20 version of the Pathfinder Chronicles Gazetteer (OGL)? Or could it be possible for Green Ronin to publish a True20 Pathfinder Chronicles: Classic Monsters Revisited (OGL) with some shared profit distribution between your two companies?
Does Green Ronin have the right to publish conversion guide to all of your modules (pathfinder or gamemastery)?Thanks!
Green Ronin has announced a new Revised True20 Core Book for April.
Not a new edition, the rules are getting revised and incorporated with the material from the True20 Companion.
GR has made my choice easier; I'll be giving this a shot.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8
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Back when we switched to 3.5 from 3.0... there was a period of time when we had to unlearn the old set and learn the new set of rules, and that caused quite a bit of headaches and stress and frustration. And that was just a small change in editions.
Heck, I still find minor changes from 3-3.5; like the fact that druids are no longer restricted in weapon choice, just armor.
C&C is good if you want to take a step back*chuckles*
I always get a kick out of these sort of comments. It's like RPG's are some sort of technology.
"Yeah, there have been great strides in the field of imagination over the past 30 years."
Art does progress much like technology. We have come a long way from primitive cave drawings. Why wouldn’t RPGs ‘evolve’?
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Back when we switched to 3.5 from 3.0... there was a period of time when we had to unlearn the old set and learn the new set of rules, and that caused quite a bit of headaches and stress and frustration. And that was just a small change in editions.
Was that partly because the two systems were very similar?
After all, when you know that two systems are completely unrelated, you're more likely to start from first principles, and give everything an extra proofread, rather than rely on a faulty assumption that a rule has been left unchanged.
You may also find it easier and more tempting to create a new encounter that works on its own merits, in the new rule set, rather than feel you have to hammer a square 3.0 peg into a round 3.5 hole.
Of course this applies equally to converting True20, C&C and 4E...
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...you choose at each level a new feat from your current role. You can create virtualy any DnD class with this system, without being constraint to follow the rigid class and sometime illogical progression of DnD character. For exemple if I want my character to be an expert of sneak attack, I could take Sneak attack five time in a row at each level progression of my Expert character. I want to take Uncanny dodge at first lvl? No problem
Is this a totally free-for-all choice, or are there still pre-requisites for the more powerful/complex feats?
Is there the possibility of multi-classing, or is the choice of role fixed?
I'm curious about the ease of creating the more hybrid classes.
Eg; to make a 'paladin' or 'ranger', could you take (say) 4 levels of Warrior, and 2 of Adept, choosing appropriate Feats from separate lists, or would you always be defined as a Warrior, and thus be eligible for those divine powers as part of the Warrior list, but requiring higher, more difficult prerequisites than an Adept would pay?
Most Feats are available to all three Roles. Some Feats are limited to certain Roles. I do not have the books with me, but as I recall, base True20 is free-for-all choice. However, I believe the expert book they recently released does have Feat trees.
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I can tell you that having as much Paizo support/collaboration for True20 as possible would sit really, really well with me. True20 suits my GMing style very well, and as it's my d20 iteration of choice these days, the easier it is for me to use with other d20 products, the more likely I am to pick those up--especially when we're already talkin' Paizo quality.
If you play with only the core rulebook, since role are not really class, when you take a new level and want some 'magical ability' you only have to take a level in Adept role and chose a power instead of a feat. You can do the same, at will, if you want expert exclusive feats for exemple. There is not multi-class(role) restriction or penalty.
If you use the True20 Companion, you could also build new role that can fit most of your need if you don't like the idea of multi-classing.
For exemple, a bard could take the BaB and Saves of he Expert but trade a few skills points to be able to use a limited list of powers (normaly usable only by Adept) at each level of progression.
Or you can create a monk that got the same BaB as a Warrior with hand-to-hand combat but the BaB of an expert for his other attack type. The same could be use to create a targetter/archer role...
Most feats or powers don't have any prerequisite as they have more or less the same impact on the game (that could be argue of course). But the recent True20 Exert book have effectively introduced the notion of Feat trees (see Courtfool post above).
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Most feats or powers don't have any prerequisite as they have more or less the same impact on the game (that could be argue of course). But the recent True20 Exert book have effectively introduced the notion of Feat trees (see Courtfool post above).
Which I haven't gotten to use yet in-play, but seems pretty well-considered.
I should point out that's one of the things I think the adherents of True20 love--the system retains a great deal of modularity, where changes to feat structure, putting Hit Points back in, etc., can be effected (and are described well, if not in the book, then you can bet someone on the forum has thought or tried it) with a great deal of ease.
I think the True20 Companion is a must have. It breaks down Roles into a more building block approach like Hero. This allows a great deal more customization.
It would be cool to have Paizo go the way of True20 r (preferably) C&C though.
For me, they might as well go to 4e, if they change. I'm sticking with 3.5 not because I don't like 4e, but rather because I've invested rather heavily, very recently in 3.5. Going to any other system, regardless of how close it is to 3.5, is the same as changing versions, as far as I'm concerned.
Greg