Is anyone here playing this system? Could you give me an overview, how many stars do you give it etc.? I'm thinking of looking into it. I wanted some feedback first.
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Is anyone here playing this system? Could you give me an overview, how many stars do you give it etc.? I'm thinking of looking into it. I wanted some feedback first.
I am! I would give it 4.5 stars out of 5. I'm really having a lot of fun with it. I was getting a little burned out with some of the complexity of 3.5, and C&C was like a breath of fresh air.
So, an overview:
It's d20-based, using OGL, with a few new rules added on and a lot taken out. Basically, it's the same system you're used to playing. The one big mechanical change is in the SIEGE engine, which replaces things like skills, and makes ability scores more important (you have some ability scores which are Prime, and it's much easier to succeed on tasks based on a Prime attribute than a non-Prime). Rather than having a skill or feat telling you what you can or can't do, you tell the CK (Castle Keeper) what you want to do and he gives you the difficulty. It puts a lot more power and flexibility into the hands of both the players and the characters.
Stylistically, it hearkens back to 1e, with core races and iconic classes. No skills, no feats, no PrCs. It's a much simpler system and combats go much faster. That being said, if you like things like feats and skills, you can put them back in. It's incredibly easy to customize and house-rule. I've added simplified feat and skill lists into my game. It's pretty much backwards-compatible too, as it's really easy to convert old 1e or 2e materials to C&C (3.x is a little harder, with skills, feats, monster class levels, etc., but it's doable).
EDIT: Oh yeah, I forgot one thing. There's just 2 books you need: the Players Handbook and Monsters & Treasure. And really, you can get by with just a PHB and use monsters from a D&D Monster Manual. There is no DMG, although a CKG is in the works, but it will apparently only have optional rules, and is not necessary for play.
They've got a pretty friendly online community as well, with plenty of feedback from the designers. Anybody on the Troll Lord boards would be happy to answer your questions.
The only reason I give it 4.5 instead of 5 stars is that TLG is still a pretty small company. Their final products could use a bit more polish on the editorial/proofreading side, and they have had some delays with release dates. But they've always been very upfront and honest about that, so they do try to keep their fans happy and informed.
Oh yeah, and they've got a guy named Gary Gygax working on a little something called Castle Zagyg, which is supposed to be an original update of Greyhawk, without all those annoying WotC IP issues. ;)
Hope that helps. If you have any other questions, I'll do my best to answer them, and I'm sure there's a few more Crusaders lurking around here as well.
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Here's something else you might be interested in. You can download free C&C Quickstart rules from the TLG site. It doesn't have all of the races and classes, but it can give you a good idea of what to expect.
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I've been running C&C as my system of choice for around 2 years now. It is great.
One of the benefits of the game is the ease with which you can convert material from any edition of D&D to for use in your C&C game. I use materials from OD&D, 1st Edition, 2nd Edition,even 3.5e when I play C&C.
It's easy to learn, fun to play and a blast to DM. One of the biggest problems though is getting 3.5e players adjusted to the possibilities in C&C. You don't need feats to tell you what you can do, just give stuff a try and let the dice sort it out. o, it takes a bit of style adjustment to get used to, but when you do adjust, big time fun follows.
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One of my gaming groups is getting ready to switch over to this system. My wife and I aren't completely convinced that it is the system for us, but so far it has not been terrible.
It is hard for us to adjust to not having skills and feats. (We started playing with 3.5, so we don't have old school memories like the rest of our group.)
Our DM (or Castle Keeper now...) is top notch though, so I'm sure we will have fun. We are taking the rest of the month off from that game due to the holidays, but once we play again I will post further thoughts if anyone is interested.
I really enjoy C&C for three very big reasons:
1) It's easy to run on the fly. This is very important to me, as my players are famous for doing very unexpected things. Being able to run it off the cuff means I don't have to stop for five minutes to look up things in the rule books, one minute maybe, but never for very long.
2)It's easy to house rule. There's reason to be concerned with game balance, but the rules are easier to tweak with than 3rd edition. Want skills? Easy to implement (there are several resources on the web for this). Want feats? Would take a little work, and bonuses would need to be reduced slightly but can be done. I like the fact that I can implement rules, or change things with out tremendous amounts of number crunching, or hours implementing formulas at the computer.
3)I can use my out of print OD&D/AD&D/AD&D 2nd Edition stuff, and run it with out a lot of converting. This means I need only prepare the module as usual, not spend several hours changing monster and NPC stats to fit the system.
Don't get me wrong, I like 3rd edition. But C&C is a fun, easy system to use, and I'll probably continue to run games with it regularly from here on out.
Thanks for the info guys. Anyone want to add anything else?
All what you said is interesting and encourage me to look at the game, now I have some questions that maybe community could response:
1. does C&C support complex rules as D&D regarding for example: underwater combat, aereal combat, wilderness hazards (starvation and thirst), etc.?
2. what is the array of products availables for this game and what games can be compatible with it?
All what you said is interesting and encourage me to look at the game, now I have some questions that maybe community could response:
1. does C&C support complex rules as D&D regarding for example: underwater combat, aereal combat, wilderness hazards (starvation and thirst), etc.?
2. what is the array of products availables for this game and what games can be compatible with it?
You can make C&C as complex as you like. Check the TrollLord Games forums. There is a forum called rules-and-chaos(or something like that) where people talk about all the kinds of houserules they use for C&C. Ask Treebore for his list of houserules. He has a very unique gamestyle. I've added a few rules from BECMI D&D (like weapons mastery). A lot of people added their favorite rules from across the spectrum of games.
All the D&D versions are compatible with C&C. There is also going to be a C&C Wilderlands (and a magazine/gazeteer being put out by AGP). There is a Fantasy Grounds II for over-the-net gaming. Goodman Games is putting out some DCCs in C&C format. There is another company that makes pdf-stuff for it (BeyondBelief). Castle Zagyg is a whole seperate setting with some variant rules in effect (and written by guess who). There is also the Crusader, the bi-monthly C&C mag.Anything for the Labyrinth Lord RPG is very C&C friendly. Palladium games are also a source of material some people like to convert over.
P.S. D'oh! I forgot to mention that TLG also puts out their own modules and setting. The setting is called Airdhe (or Erde in it's d20 incarnation).
Waiting for the core books to arrive. Unfortunately, my first experience with it was a free download adventure from the website which is quite badly written and poorly edited. I'm keeping an open mind and waiting for the official products. I'll see what I think.
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Waiting for the core books to arrive. Unfortunately, my first experience with it was a free download adventure from the website which is quite badly written and poorly edited. I'm keeping an open mind and waiting for the official products. I'll see what I think.
Yeah, I'm a big C&C fan but have to admit, the Rising Knight adventure leaves me cold.
I highly recommend the Haunted Highlands and accompanying DB series of modules though. Excellent work and a mini campaign setting.
I really enjoy C&C for three very big reasons:
1) It's easy to run on the fly. This is very important to me, as my players are famous for doing very unexpected things. Being able to run it off the cuff means I don't have to stop for five minutes to look up things in the rule books, one minute maybe, but never for very long.
Cool. What about statting NPC's? Is it faster than 3rd ed. D&D? I'm shopping for a new system that is easier to run and doesn't take two hours to stat one NPC.
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Cool. What about statting NPC's? Is it faster than 3rd ed. D&D? I'm shopping for a new system that is easier to run and doesn't take two hours to stat one NPC.
Quick, fast and painless. One of the things I like about the system.
My motto is:
If it takes longer to stat out a critter than it will take your players to kill it? Something is wrong.
Cool. What about statting NPC's? Is it faster than 3rd ed. D&D? I'm shopping for a new system that is easier to run and doesn't take two hours to stat one NPC.I really enjoy C&C for three very big reasons:
1) It's easy to run on the fly. This is very important to me, as my players are famous for doing very unexpected things. Being able to run it off the cuff means I don't have to stop for five minutes to look up things in the rule books, one minute maybe, but never for very long.
Heck, yeah it's tons faster. Even if you do like I do and roll for hit points and stuff.
I'm learning the rules myself and this is by far one of the easiest and most simplified systems I've ever seen.
The idea is that while rules provide structure, too many rules slow down gameplay and ruin the mood.
Basically, the only stats are the six attributes which are then split into two categories: Primary and secondary. The base target number of an action is based on whether the attribute being used is a primary of secondary. The ratings of each attribute determine any modifiers to the roll. Meet or beat the target number and the action is successful.
That's it! There are some "detail rules" but essentially, that's the whole game right there... as I understand it.
Well, I've checked out the Troll Lords website and looked at the starter rules, and I think I might just be a convert. Hopefully Pathfinder AP's won't be too difficult to convert. Thanks everyone - it was this thread that brought C&C to my attention. Now I know what I'm getting myself for Christmas.
Well, I've checked out the Troll Lords website and looked at the starter rules, and I think I might just be a convert. Hopefully Pathfinder AP's won't be too difficult to convert. Thanks everyone - it was this thread that brought C&C to my attention. Now I know what I'm getting myself for Christmas.
I've heard rumors someone may convert Pathfinder to C&C.
I read over the rules and they do seem easier, though it seems like there's some strange hold over rules from 1e D&D that bother me a bit (though not deal breakers). I'm going to stick with 3.5 for the time being, mainly because I don't have the time to create my own adventures and so use published ones. If I was creating my own campaigns and adventures C&C would be very tempting due to the time savings on preparation and the ease of 'winging' it.
There is a big christmas sale right now. Just click on the christmas scene on the homepage (the one with the cartoon troll lord dudes) and check it out.
There is a big christmas sale right now. Just click on the christmas scene on the homepage (the one with the cartoon troll lord dudes) and check it out.
Ok, the sale was enough for me to make some C&C purchases. I'm thinking I'll start my kids off on C&C in a couple years when they're ready.
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There is a big christmas sale right now. Just click on the christmas scene on the homepage (the one with the cartoon troll lord dudes) and check it out.Ok, the sale was enough for me to make some C&C purchases. I'm thinking I'll start my kids off on C&C in a couple years when they're ready.
Hope you enjoy your purchase. C&C has been a great game for me. They are working on a basic box set right now a well. I'm looking forward to them releasing that so I can pick it up for my kids.
I got grappled by a crocodile off my horse and dragged under water to drown.
Had another character before the team could get to the next encounter.
I just bought the player's handbook yesterday, and so far I'm really impressed. I love the elegant simplicity of the SIEGE engine, and I really like how they've handled the races.
It's ironic that Castles and Crusades feels more like D&D to me than 3.x ever did. I think Troll Lords did a marvelous job of blending old-school D&D flavour with d20 system mechanics to create a fast-paced cinematic game. I'm going to finish off my Savage Tide campaign using 3.5, then start Rise of the Runelords using C&C.
I do have a question, though. It seems to me that since characters can attempt to do pretty much anything using the Siege mechanic, it makes most of the class abilities of Rangers, Rogues, and Assassins redundant. For example, anyone can attempt to move silently, and if they have chosen Dex as a prime they can do it at least as well, or better, than someone with the move silently class feature. Are Rangers, Rogues, and Assassins getting badly short-changed or am I missing something? What would be the point of playing one of these classes when a character of any class can perform most of the ranger/rogue/assassin class abilities just as well?
Also, since the prime ability of rangers is strength (the rationale for this is beyond me), and the ranger's class abilities are all Dexterity or Wisdom-based, demi-human rangers, with only 1 extra choice of a prime can only be competent at half of their class abilities, whereas a character of another class, say a cleric, who has chosen Dexterity as a prime will be a more competent in the ranger's niche than an elven ranger would be. This seems very wrong to me.
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I do have a question, though. It seems to me that since characters can attempt to do pretty much anything using the Siege mechanic, it makes most of the class abilities of Rangers, Rogues, and Assassins redundant. For example, anyone can attempt to move silently, and if they have chosen Dex as a prime they can do it at least as well, or better, than someone with the move silently class feature. Are Rangers, Rogues, and Assassins getting badly short-changed or am I missing something? What would be the point of playing one of these classes when a character of any class can perform most of the ranger/rogue/assassin class abilities just as well?
No, other classes will never excel at something that is another classes niche. If it is a class ability, you get to add your level to the roll. Also, with the SIEGE mechanic, only activities which would be difficult for you to pull off require a roll. SO, there are some instances where a thief might not require to roll to accomplish something but another class would have to.
Also, a success by a class who's ability it is can be far more impressive than that of an untrained character.
Lets take a ranger who can track and a fighter who grew up in the woods and did some tracking to hunt and feed his family. Both are adventurer now and the CK will allow both of them to make a tracking roll (The ranger because it is an ability, the fighter because it fits with his background)
The ranger gets to add his level to his roll, the fighter doesn't. The ranger will likely have a lower Challenge Level than the fighter as well.
Now, lets say both succeed on the tracking roll. The fighter, who has a knack for tracking but it's not his forteonly determines that what they are tracking went north.
The ranger, thi is hi forte, can tell that there are 5 total in the party they are tracking north. They passed this way less than half a day ago and it looks as if one is injured by the gait of his tracks.
See the difference?
Oh, and as far as your other question. A common fix for the ranger is to swap his STR prime to DEX. Thats how a lot of folks do it.
No, other classes will never excel at something that is another classes niche. If it is a class ability, you get to add your level to the roll. Also, with the SIEGE mechanic, only activities which would be difficult for you to pull off require a roll. SO, there are some instances where a thief might not require to roll to accomplish something but another class would have to.
Ah, I see. Thanks very much for the clarification. I was under the impression that class level was added to all ability checks - your explanation makes much more sense. Okay, its official now - I love this game; can't wait to try it.
I wanted some feedback first.
I've played one short campaign of it and am itching to get back to it (currently our group is running WFRP and Reign). I love the system, and it keeps everything simple and easy to manage. With 3.5, I find that I'm always a feat short (as in I never remember how many feats I should have, and have less than I should), don't really care about picking them, and forget to use them. C&C uses the K.I.S.S. method to a 'T'. I can't wait to get into it again!
Oh, and I haven't heard anyone point out one of the best features of the game - both 'essential' hardcovers (Player's Handbook and Monsters & Treasure) are $20.00 MSRP each. The only downfall is that they seem to put out new printings once a year or so that clean up the aforementioned type-os, etc.
But C&C is a fun, easy system to use, and I'll probably continue to run games with it regularly from here on out.
Which I’m going to have to dido because I’m in said game of Lojakz. I also love the little book keeping that is involved as well.
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Thanks for the info guys. Anyone want to add anything else?
Not really, but I'll add my voice to the others: it's a good, simple, intuitive system that emulates D&D well and is usable with any product of any edition without much trouble.
It's great for newbies, for people who just want to enjoy the game without playing the system, for DMs who don't want to spend half an hour to stat a villain et cetera. It's "Open the PHB, create a character in 10 minutes, grab your dice and start playing". That's it.
Over at enworld there are some really good, long reviews which say just about everything that needs to be said. Overall, I think the 3 star reviews got it just about right. Trying to overlook the technical issues, (editing, proofreading, layout) which make it more difficult to embrace the product and take it seriously: If you're looking for a 1st ed Gygax nostalgia experience, this is it. Personally, I appreciate what they are bringing to the table, but I think they've taken a couple of steps back. For example, there's no weapon speed and no criticals. Great, you want flavor, but the rules effectively punish you if you want a swashbuckling fighter who wields a rapier.
In places it's too simple. They give an example of a ranger tracking kobods. That's kind of a complex sequence of events, but here you just roll one attribute check (wisdom), and if you make it you 'succeed.'
So you just roll the 20 and you're at the secret lair?
To me, that's too elliptical. I don't find that adequate.
Another quirk that I find annoying is rolling d10 for initiative.
One of the great things about d20 is that it streamlines play a lot.
There's no reason to use d10 for initiative, except that it was used in the old days.
I have my own complaints about 3.5, but it's highly extensible and it draws on 30+ years and hundreds of thousands of hours of gaming experience. I don't see why you would deliberately discard that, except if you really just want to relive your 1980 glory days. More rules and options are like dressing in layers: you can use them if you need them, or easily dump them if it's too hot. I can strip 3.5 down much more easily than I can build up to supply deficiencies of a skimpier system. When you have options, you can decide what kind of balance between precision and game flow you want to strike. Sometimes one is more important than the other. Sometimes a combat should be quick, and sometimes you want to attend to every detail.
In any case, it's a decent effort and still a young game. We'll keep an eye on it.
There's no reason to use d10 for initiative, except that it was used in the old days.
The reason I read somewhere was that the rounds are ten seconds long so it is divided into ten sections for ease of referance during play. Whatever the actual reason may or may not be I use a d20 during our game here. Sometimes we just have too many combatants for a d10 , it'll get too bunched up on some numbers.
Also, I can't think of anyone I talk to about playing C&C that hasn't used some version of critical hits. One thing about not having a regulated book form of criticals is all the different systems that Joe, Bob, and Tom all use are just as valid as mine.
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I have a couple of questions about this game.
Can you have stats higher than 18?
Is 3d6 the only acceptable method of stat generation?
How many classes are there in the basic game and what are they?
Are there expanded classes?
Can you convert classes from other sources to work in C&C? Like a Duskblade for example?
Are there no critical hits?
Are tripping, disarming, and bullrushing gone?
I downloaded the free sample rules and this is the questions that I was left with.
I absolutely love how they address Saving throws and skills and I want to learn more about the game....
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Can you have stats higher than 18?
Yes.
Is 3d6 the only acceptable method of stat generation?
No. I've used everything from point buys and more.
How many classes are there in the basic game and what are they?
13. Fighter, ranger, rogue, assassin, barbarian, monk, wizard, illusionist, cleric, druid, knight, paladin, bard.
Are there expanded classes?
Just the above classes.
Can you convert classes from other sources to work in C&C? Like a Duskblade for example?
Yes, easily.
Are there no critical hits?
Not in the PHB, but every group I know uses them. I've even tried the critical hit deck
Are tripping, disarming, and bullrushing gone?
Anything can be tried in combat. Disarm and overbearing are specifically dealt with. The beauty of the system is you don't need small sub-rules to allow you to adjudicate everything.
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Knights are leaders. They are fighting men (or women) who put their Charisma to use as well.
They begin the game with a Birthright Mount.
They possess great skills in horsemanship and can use their mounts to great effect in combat.
They get abilities to inspire, embolden, demoralize people on the battlefield.
They gain followers.
The knight is a pretty impressive class. Outdoors and on a horse they are one of the most dominating classes around, showing you why mounted warriors rocks.
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They change up a few of the other classes too.
Rangers, Paladins and Bards do not have spell casting ability in C&C.
Rangers are awesome. They are wilderness warriors without peer. The combat marauder ability is killer.
Paladins are still paladins, just no spells. I've seen variants returning the spells as well.
Bard. This is an awesome change here. The Bard in C&C is a warrior-poet. No spells, but he kicks ass. d10 Hit dice and a decent hit progression. I've actually had several people play a bard in my C&C games. Something I rarely saw in AD&D.
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Since I've talked up the good aspects of C&C, I figure I'll give a few downsides as well.
First, TLG is a small company, so production delays are something to contend with.
Also, for people coming to C&C from d20, you have to change your mindset for C&C. C&C is not a game that requires you to roll for every little thing, and if the CK (DM) requires his players to do so, you'll end up with some unhappy players because the challenge levels are more difficult in C&C.
I've found during the past 2 years of me running C&C games, it usually takes my new players a little to adjust IF they come from playing 3e. The C&C system doesn't require you to have feats or other things to allow you to do something. Give whatever you want a shot, you might just succeed.
As a CK I go with the philosophy "Don't say No. Say, roll."
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I think I will pick this up. What books should I pick up? I know someone wrote that the PHB and monster book are all that is needed but what about a DMG equivilent? Is there one or will there be one?
I need a list of must have rules books.
Thanks for all the answers DangerDwarf. You should work for them in sales.;P
I need a list of must have rules books.
There are only two (as I mentioned above): The Player's Handbook and Monsters and Treasure. Each are 19.99.
They keep talking about a Castle Keeper's Guide coming out, but alas, and again as mentioned above, TLG is a small company, and we've been waiting for that for a while now.
Get the quick start for FREE here:
http://www.trolllord.com/newsite/cnc/ccqs.html
Order the books through Paizo NOW!! ; )
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Thanks for all the answers DangerDwarf. You should work for them in sales.;P
I believing in pimping the game systems and products that I enjoy. I pimp Pathfinder over on the TLG boards too.
Like mentioned,the required books are the PHB and Monsters & Treasure.
The Castle Keeper's Guide is not required and is still in development. It is not a required book but will reportably provide a whole mess of options for you to add to your game.
For rules, I'd also suggest Dragons of Airhde: Miasmal Wyrms. Its a module sized monster book, some pretty cool stuff in there.
Sounds a lot like the 1e. AD+D, philosophically.
Its AD&D using the d20 system and the super-cool SEIGE engine resolution mechanic. Basically C&C is everything I love about D&D with none of the things I hate. I feel like I've come home.
I'm actually a friend of lojakz and one of those unpredictable players he talks about, and I have to say that I do enjoy the simplicity of the system. It allows for some really bizarre bits of character actions... like out crazy barbarian with a mild obsession with crucifixion. Did I mention we're not a good party? Or even a nice party for that matter... But yeah the system is brilliant.
Did I mention we're not a good party? Or even a nice party for that matter...
Considering Im one of said party, that is putting it rather midly if I must say....
Two quick questions for the C&C crowd -
1. When will one of you be starting a C&C PbP, and can I just put my name on the list now?
and
2. I lurked around the boards (Paizo, Wizards, EN World) for a good while before recently getting involved in a PbP, and it's the first time I've played since way back to 2ed many, many years ago. I have a decent grasp of the 3.5 rules and the SRD, and I'm learning a bunch from the PbP games & threads. At this point, I'm thinking it would be fun to start a game via Fantasy Grounds with some friends and here's my question: Like me, most of these guys haven't played since 2ed, so, would you recommend going with the 3.5 rules and the SRD or the old school C&C style system? They're all smart guys and I'm sure they could learn either system easily, and I'd link to play RotRL or CotCT, so I'm really just thinking in terms of straight up fun.
Thanks for all the answers DangerDwarf. You should work for them in sales.;PI believing in pimping the game systems and products that I enjoy. I pimp Pathfinder over on the TLG boards too.
Yes, he does. =)
I noticed people comparing C&C to AD&D. But with regards to the books needed it runs like BECMI D&D. In that game the box sets came with two books. The Monsters & Treasure book is about 2/3 monsters and 1/3 treasure. Treasure creation, treasure tables, treasure descriptions, etc. Everything else a CK/DM needs is in the PHB; experience, skill checks, combat, spells, blah blah blah.
If you guys can get it, the CK Screen (with mini-adventure) is well worth it's weight in gp. My CK hasn't cracked open the PHB (except for spells) since she got this.
TLG does have a product release rate that I hate at the moment. All the books I want they ain't finished yet. And Goodman Games can't make DCCs for C&C fast enough for us. Oh, well. This way I get to indulge myself in other stuff while I wait... like back issues of Dungeon or Dragon.
TLG also likes to put typos in their books, but who doesn't lately.
Peter Bradley is my favorite RPG illustrator at the moment.
Check him out: http://www.ravenchilde.com/main.html