So I'm taking a break from working on my latest adventure to check out the boards and a post got me thinking about the existance of a significant number of spell casters in our worlds.
Of course here we are standing dangerously close to actually examining what the existance of the spells in the SRD would actually mean for the world.
One of the strangest conceits of Dungeons & Dragons is that our worlds are not allowed to accurately reflect what the widespread existance of magic would actually mean.
I mean we still play in worlds were caravans led by merchants and guarded by caravan guards haul goods through dangerous passes teaming with the threat of bandits or worse. Hmm...whats it cost to get a mage to cast teleport? There are a variety of good spells that will allow one to store goods in things like extra dimensional spaces. Are we really sure that caravan is the best way of getting this years grain crop to market? I have my doubts.
We routinely deal with situations where place A does not know what is happening in Place B. But the book is loaded with communication spells. Should not the moderate sized urban areas all be in easy contact with each other?
Essentially the question that I'm asking is:
Have you gone through the spell lists and asked yourself "how does the existance of this spell effect my world?"
I see no evidence that this has been done with Forgotten Realms or Greyhawk for sure and I've never really evaluated how all the spells would effect my homebrew. Honestly I'm rather scared of the prospect. Caravans with caravan guards are well understood fantasy trope - do we really want to deal with the actual implications of the spell lists? I have a gut feeling that, while we would get a world that was more internally consistent, we might, paradoxically, get one that does not 'feel' realistic.
Looking over all the spells that exist and could influence a d&d world is an overwhelming undertaking, which is I'm sure why nobody does it. If I were to do so, I'd start with the question 'what is the highest level that a mundane NPC caster can get to in my world?' Anything that such an NPC could cast would have the most effect on said world, while higher level effects could potentially be more individually influential but not common enough to make a real impact on everyone in the world.
For example 5th level is in my mind the cap on mundane run-of-the-mill NPCs. So any spell of up to 3rd level might actually be used in common business, political and economic practice. Spells of 4th level and above could certainly have a big impact on localized areas, but won't see common use among the populace. Those are the spells that you can't just flip open the PHB and say "okay, I hire a caster to cast Teleport for X number of gp."
Actually, I would recommend the Expeditious Retreat Press' Magicial Medieval Society books (especially their first one), as they apply the statistical implications of the 3.0 DMG to medieval Europe and crunch some numbers for you in the context of that setting. Your query may well be best answered therein...
Well I certainly agree that a DM has to decide which spells are so common that everyone should be using them fairly commonly. Which are a little harder to come by but well within the reach of anyone who is reasonably affluent. Which spells are only available to the very rich and which ones are basically beyond the means of even powerful mortals.
So, in my campaign world anyway, 9th level magic is pretty rare. Mages this powerful are simply no longer subject to the dictates of even powerful Kings. Maybe they might cast spells as favour but you don't have access to 9th level magic and still need to kowtow to anybody.
As to the idea that this is to much work. I don't believe that. As world designers many of us are gluttons for punishment. The spell lists are large but this is by no means an impossible task.
Actually, I would recommend the Expeditious Retreat Press' Magicial Medieval Society books (especially their first one), as they apply the statistical implications of the 3.0 DMG to medieval Europe and crunch some numbers for you in the context of that setting. Your query may well be best answered therein...
I'll keep my eye out for this one.
I use the old 50% survival ratio from AD&D.
For ever 10 1st level characters 5 live to 2nd level, half that amount live to 3rd level, etc.
See below for chart like format.
1,000,000 1st level
500,000 2nd level
250,000 3rd level
125,000 4th level
62,500 5th level
31,250 6th
15625 7th level
7812 8th level
3906 9th level
1953 10th level
976 11th level
488 12th level
244 13th level
122 14th level
61 15th level
30 16th level
15 17th level
7 18th level
3 19th level
1 20th level
This changes from area to area but for the general world calculations holds true (enough).
I would agree that just because it is possible doesn't mean that it's done. In my homebrew world there are only so many high level spellcasters, and I've noticed that 3.5 makes a deliberate effort to emphasize this too. Consider Sasserine--if you take as written the number of adventurer types among leaders and prominent citizens, and the levels given, then mid to high level npcs that have spellcasting ability are rare enough that only unusual merchant goods would be transported by teleport for instance.
However what I do think you would have would be worlds that would have some features that would be influenced by magic. I think Eberron is one of the first done in a competent way that really shows this.
Out of curiousity what do you imagine Jeremy would be the effect in the worlds you dm/play in?
Well I've been doing some thinking on this subject. It seems to me that the most important impact that magic would have in a world would be social. Magic been so useful for so many things, every noble worth his title would keep want to keep a wizard or two around and also be on very friendly terms with the local clergy. He'd call on his wizard to send messages to strategically placed underlings using Whispering Wind, to Detect Thoughts of suspicious individuals and to help his spies get into his rivals' keeps using Charm Person and Invisibility. He'd call on the clergy to set up a Zone of Truth during important negotiations, cast Invisibility Purge when he makes a public appearance and to Make Whole his favorite crown or sceptre after he accidentally broke it. Any noble would consider it beneath his dignity to be caught anywhere where every room isn't lit by a Continual Flame.
Magic being so important would have the effect of casters becoming a highly structured part of society. Every major country would have at least one wizard academy where the third+ children of nobles would go to learn to be useful to their parents' estate. Well-to-do middle class folk would pay dearly to send their favorite child there to become important so that they could cement political ties with real nobles in the future.
The clergy would become one big holy market. With actual proof of their god's power, and that power in high demand, people would relate to churches and priests much like we relate to cell phones and service today. "I'm with Kord. His guys are good in a tight spot, but not so reliable most of the time." "I'm with Boccob. Yeah, I get that alot. He's not good for your everyday bloke, but he's great for technical guys like me." "I'm with Hieroneous. I get service just about everywhere but oh, the tithes..."
Here's a thought to add to the mix.
Consider the mentality of your people, both as individuals (spellcasters) and as groups (churches, guilds, cities, etc.). How magic will affect society will be based upon the number of spellcasters, their power, and societal influence. For example, you might have a lot of spellcasters in a society but they're part of a caste system that says spellcasters will only work their magic at the command of the king. Despite the quantity of spellslingers you have, magic might be consequently rare.
Let's say your in our typical game-world (GH, FR, or the Core books). You're a mage. Why would you cast spells for anyone besides yourself? Maybe for money. Maybe not. Maybe you feel it's your responsibility to help others. Maybe you do so sometimes, not others. What about a cleric? How do you determine who you cast spells for?
There's a lot of ways magic can influence society. The one thing I have tried to avoid in these thought-experiments is having spellcasters think like modern people. We think of technology and see magic, then say, "Why don't they do it our way?"
Well, why would they? When a mundane human can knock over a castle (which is rather difficult on our world), instantly move from place to place (not doable), or call upon powerful creatures from beyond (not doable), why would you work to benefit society? Why not? Our modern thought processes, paradigm, or whatever you want to call it aren't the same as those of our fantasy people. Why would they want to talk to everyone with whispering wind spells, for example? And let's also remember that they're not living in a capitalist society either.
Too often, people take the road that leads to Eberron or something in that vein, where people presume that magic and technology are interchangeable. But are they really?
Sorry, that was a long ramble edging into rant. Carry on.
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This is actually something I've struggled with a great deal over the years. I tend to agree that if we really took into account higher level magic (and, to a lesser extent, lower level magic as well) our game worlds would have to be different, perhaps very much so, than the typical Middle Ages type world. I've argued before that in a typical D&D world, castles really have little or no place since there are gobs of spells that allow one to fly over them, teleport past or into them, destroy them outright etc. Basically, what happened to castles once gunpowder became common place would happen with high level magic.
I like that chart posted earlier that vastly limits the number of higer level spell casters. 1 20th level wizard compared to MANY more 1st level casters works for me.
My solution has been to make my worlds lean very much toward the low magic end of the scale. Magic certainly exists, but it is not common. There are simply not that many wizards, clerics etc running around, and even fewer high level spell casters. The same goes for magic. That way, you can more or less eliminate situations in which every local lord has a wizard on staff to magically send his messages, a couple clerics to heal every little wound etc. I want my world based more in reality (an oxymoron, I know, given that we are talking about a fantasy game :) with small hints of the extraordinary. This also eliminates the 'magic shop on every corner' syndrome that I hate so much. I really hate the whole 'stop by the local magical Wal-Mart and pick up a couple magic items before lunch' style of D&D.
Magic should be a spice, not the main ingredient!
I agree with Marc's post. I only really have a couple of very high level spellcasters in my homebrew setting.
There's another reason for limiting higher levels and even midlevels actually. It makes the pcs more heroic. It's been argued that one downside to Forgotten Realms is that everywhere you go there are npcs way more powerful than the pcs. My players are really enjoying the fact that having reached 9th/10th they are suddenly much admired heroes. Admittedly it means that people come to them for the pettiest problems but still, it is sort of a mark of achievement. There are npcs more powerful than they but this still gives the pcs something to live up to while not making them insignificant.
Finally there is this: I like magic to be wonderful. The stories I've liked best place significance on magical items or spells. I have never really enjoyed the idea of 'oh yeah, that's a flaming sword...I already got one though'. 'Well, I'll trade you that for my...' Maybe that's fun for some so I don't condemn it but I found to my surprise that my players really like a sense of uniqueness too. For instance for one of my pcs discovering that her magic sword is a famous sword once wielded by a giant slaying prince makes it special--her sword has a name, has a history. Another player has a rod of lordly might--or rather THE rod of lordly might. It also means that when I have a magical item show up in the game it is all the more dramatic.