I've always been a fan of direct damage spells; they're fun, simple and their effects stack with those of other characters. Unfortunately, their effectiveness does peter out at mid to high level because while hp increase exponentially, direct damage only increases linearly. So here's my solution: at level 6, add the caster's casting stat bonus to direct damage spells. At every 5 levels thereafter, add a multiple to the casting stat bonus. So at 11th you add x2 stat bonus, at 16th you add x3 stat bonus, and so on into epic levels.
Seems to powerful to me. The fact that the damage dealing spells are getting relatively weaker helps to keep the class more in line with the rest of the classes. If one wants to do something like this then the fighters sword should also get big boosts to damage since the fighters ability to pump out damage also drops fairly notably at higher levels.
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Unfortunately, their effectiveness does peter out at mid to high level because while hp increase exponentially, direct damage only increases linearly.
<Emphasis, mine>
How are HP increasing exponentially, exactly? Characters, PC's and NPC's alike, are adding 1 HD + Con Mod at each level, which seems to me to pretty much be linear (20 character levels = 20 HD, excepting templates, etc.) I would think an exponential increase would look something more like 20 character levels = 400 HD (if you're squaring).
I'm curious how you think HP are increasing exponentially. You must understand something I don't grasp.
-Skeld
Unfortunately, their effectiveness does peter out at mid to high level because while hp increase exponentially, direct damage only increases linearly.<Emphasis, mine>
How are HP increasing exponentially, exactly? Characters, PC's and NPC's alike, are adding 1 HD + Con Mod at each level, which seems to me to pretty much be linear (20 character levels = 20 HD, excepting templates, etc.) I would think an exponential increase would look something more like 20 character levels = 400 HD (if you're squaring).
I'm curious how you think HP are increasing exponentially. You must understand something I don't grasp.
-Skeld
What's being referred to is that HP increase far faster than damage at high levels. Con scores for monsters and NPCs go up pretty fast, while damage dice do not. Certain creature types, like giants and dragons, get multiple HD per CR bump. For example, look at a dragon at CR 7 and then at CR 20. His reference is a bit of an exaggeration, perhaps, but the point still valid.
Yeah - Tequila may not have worded it exactly but what he is saying is true during actual play. I just feel that this is all for the good. Massive dragons should take many rounds to kill, its no fun if they die quick.
Just to note a few things I've heard...
With spells at their current levels of power, most people playing the APs are having a hard enough time keeping the BBEGs alive for more than a few rounds against the PCs anyway.
Increase the damage potential of higher levels of spell casting the way you describe with skew this even more in the players favor.
Sure, I do think there is room to play around, but your combat casters, like a Warmage, is going to outstrip everyone else. At the higher levels, fighters are already someone limited unless you have just the right magic items for a situation.
Just some thoughts.
HPs increase exponentially because it's never just HD that increase. If it were just HD that increased, everything would get a linear X number of HP per level or per CR. But because Con always increases along with level or CR, it creates an exponential progression.
Seems to powerful too me. The fact that the damage dealing spells are getting relatively weaker helps to keep the class more in line with the rest of the classes.
A certain type of spell getting weaker doesn't reduce the effectiveness of an optimized caster. That would require a weakening of the best spells, maybe that would be a more appropriate area to focus on.
If one wants to do something like this then the fighters sword should also get big boosts to damage since the fighters ability to pump out damage also drops fairly notably at higher levels.
Good point, I think this requires some number crunching...
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I've always been under the assumption that the general consensus was that although casters (Wizards specifically) tend to start lower on the relative class power curve, they finish (at level 20) very high on that curve. Fighters on the other start high on the power curve, but by level 20 are much less effective.
Perhaps my multiple assumptions are incorrect; but if they are correct, it would be difficult to convince me thast casters need to have their power curve raised.
-Skeld
A certain type of spell getting weaker doesn't reduce the effectiveness of an optimized caster. That would require a weakening of the best spells, maybe that would be a more appropriate area to focus on.
I'm still in the middle levels so I have not really seen the phenomenally powerful stuff but my experience at this stage of the game has been that the wizards best contribution is making sure that everyone else can do their jobs. Ambushes are alleviated by things like wall of force blocking off the rare attackers. If the enemy archers are tearing the party apart a summoned creature helps or you can cast fly on the fighter and the fighter can go and make make the archers lives life miserable (and short). Teleport the fighter to the BBEG while the rogue tumbles into flanking for some BBEG beating goodness etc.
The common denominator here is that the mage makes everyone else work better and solves problems but its still the damage dealers that, well, deal the damage. The wizard is cutting back on blasting spells more because the rapidly rising HD of the opposition means that their saves are ungodly and a great many of them have SR in any case.
Notice here that the mage is maybe the most important character in the party but the actual toe to toe damage dealing is the forte of the other classes. So long as that holds up the fighter is still a critical member of this team but if one decides that the mage should be able to do all these amazing tricks and also be able to generally out damage the fighter in every fight then you have completely regulated the fighter to body guard status - and thats no fun for the fighter.
Just pumping up the damage of the weapons does not completely deal with this issue since its really about making sure that everyone on the team is really important to the team.
Furthermore if your planning on also pumping up weapon damage I'd save myself the trouble. The easiest mathematical way of getting to this place is by stripping out the hps of the bad guys. In the end that seems to be what your aiming for - instead of trying to figure out how to increase the potential of each individual damage dealing spell and every weapon in the game just reduce all the bad guys hps. You end up at the same place but its a hell of a lot less work and you don't have to keep revising your formula for thrown daggers or scorching rays because their no longer balanced against morning stars and cone of cold.
Well thanks for the input everyone. I've decided that upping spell damage isn't worth it--weapon damage does increase exponentially, but only because character wealth increases exponentially. That's something that I've never liked and IME doesn't actually happen in many games.
Direct damage spells, by design, are less effective in high level play most of the time. Otherwise, most encounters would be over in in a round or two as the direct damage casters blast everything. The aggregate damage potential of a direct damage caster, even if the targets make their saves, is staggering. The only real limit to direct damage at high level play is elemental resistance/immunity and spell resistance. Against foes that lack elemental resistances or SR, the direct damage casters are pumping out large amounts of damage to multiple foes at once or massive damage to single opponents.
Direct damage spells, by design, are less effective in high level play most of the time. Otherwise, most encounters would be over in in a round or two as the direct damage casters blast everything. The aggregate damage potential of a direct damage caster, even if the targets make their saves, is staggering. The only real limit to direct damage at high level play is elemental resistance/immunity and spell resistance. Against foes that lack elemental resistances or SR, the direct damage casters are pumping out large amounts of damage to multiple foes at once or massive damage to single opponents.
Or do what I did and add a spell roll to each cast with the chance to critical the spell or fumble. I took out the "take 10" on resisting spells and made it a d20 roll. This makes casters more unpredictable. The thing I dont like about d20 is the almost set nature of certain magic. Magic is supposed to be "magical" Anything could happen not some set 10d6 that pretty much averages to 35 (17 with a save) every time you toss it out there. 20d6 having a critical flame strike because the target failed by 5 or more makes even 10d6 possibly deadly...just remember it's more dangerous for the PCs too.
My biggest issue with 3.5 is that by the time you are levels 10-15 fights become very much like two fighters looking like a huge block of butter and everyone is armed with butter knives. The game loses suspense on all but the most escalated fights and the only way the game system balances that out is by handing out insane items because the game doesnt scale damage properly.
My solution was to add in a Rolemasteresque critical system but also adding in fate points so that anyone "can" kill anyone else but the chances are very very slim. Bard killed Smaug in one shot, in the current system DND is horrible at mimicking literature. If a game system cant imitate literature, movies and books then it falls short and right now the game really falls flat past levels 10-15.
There is never a time in any movie, book, or real life event when someone is surrounded by multiple foes yet feels completely confident about the outcome because "I have 155 hit points and these are only 4HD Orcs". The orcs should have a small chance to kill this fighter just like a level 5 fighter should have a miniscule chance to perform the impossible and severely wound a dragon or something. Look if the odds are 1-1000 that still gives the players "hope" but in the current system it is completely impossible which to me takes some of the fun out of the game.
Direct damage spells, by design, are less effective in high level play most of the time. Otherwise, most encounters would be over in in a round or two as the direct damage casters blast everything. The aggregate damage potential of a direct damage caster, even if the targets make their saves, is staggering. The only real limit to direct damage at high level play is elemental resistance/immunity and spell resistance. Against foes that lack elemental resistances or SR, the direct damage casters are pumping out large amounts of damage to multiple foes at once or massive damage to single opponents.
The problem is that at high levels almost everything has SR plus a few resistances and immunities. *Sigh* all those extra stats and rolls, just to counter-balance high level save-or-suck spells...I hope magic is simpler and better thought-out in 4e.
Direct damage spells, by design, are less effective in high level play most of the time. Otherwise, most encounters would be over in in a round or two as the direct damage casters blast everything. The aggregate damage potential of a direct damage caster, even if the targets make their saves, is staggering. The only real limit to direct damage at high level play is elemental resistance/immunity and spell resistance. Against foes that lack elemental resistances or SR, the direct damage casters are pumping out large amounts of damage to multiple foes at once or massive damage to single opponents.The problem is that at high levels almost everything has SR plus a few resistances and immunities. *Sigh* all those extra stats and rolls, just to counter-balance high level save-or-suck spells...I hope magic is simpler and better thought-out in 4e.
Agreed. Even the developers talked about the 3.5 and previous additions having a "sweet" spot of levels between something like 7th and 13 or something like that.
I've always been under the assumption that the general consensus was that although casters (Wizards specifically) tend to start lower on the relative class power curve, they finish (at level 20) very high on that curve. Fighters on the other start high on the power curve, but by level 20 are much less effective.
Perhaps my multiple assumptions are incorrect; but if they are correct, it would be difficult to convince me thast casters need to have their power curve raised.
-Skeld
Your assumptions (particularly about wizards) are correct, but it's not direct damage spells that make a mage so powerful. Jeremy has already done a great job of illustrating one way in which wizards rule the game at the end levels, but another is battlefield control spells. Things like Evard's black tentacles or the various wall of... spells are unbelievably powerful in that they reshape the tactical nature of the field and force enemies to fight on terms much more favorable to you and your party. There's no save against that.
I don't quite understand the "magic should be unpredictable" argument. I think that's one possiblity, but there's also plenty of magic in literature and such that isn't "wild" at all, but extremely consistent and predictable (at least from the view of the casters). Now, I'll grant that it's usually a lot "stronger" than what one finds in D&D (mainly because the idea of something akin to saving throws doesn't usually exist outside of games like this; magic simply works as it's supposed to). Now, I used to think the stronger magic was in the game, the better. My views have changed, though: I feel that, for balance reasons, magic is in a good "place" as it is when considering its power. I also feel that the mechanics function well enough that DMs who are so inclined can still weave a bit of the poetic into their games, and magic in particular.
Regardless, I find magic (outside of D&D) quite often seems rather organized to me. When something goes wrong, it's typically because the spellcaster didn't understand the ritual or incantation properly, or some such, or got greedy or arrogant in a summoning and the called being ripped him to shreds. That (blunders on the part of the caster) hardly makes the magic itself intrinsically chaotic or unpredictable, however.
But that's all just my experience.
My biggest issue with 3.5 is that by the time you are levels 10-15 fights become very much like two fighters looking like a huge block of butter and everyone is armed with butter knives. The game loses suspense on all but the most escalated fights and the only way the game system balances that out is by handing out insane items because the game doesnt scale damage properly.
Odd - I've been finding that the game has gotten a lot more lethal since my players got to about 10th level. The last time there was this much carnage going down the players where 1st and 2nd level.
Just last session a Sorcerer stepped into a battle my players where in with his minions and fired off a sudden maximized orb of force. This pretty much played out with me telling the player that I had to make a ranged touch attack (generally dead easy). If I did not roll really bad he would take 80 points of damage with no save. Since I knew the player in question had already been hit by a great axe for significant damage he did not have 70 hps. Essentially it came down to, I need to roll over 5 on this D20. If I do your dead; make me a new character. Player both got lucky and corrected me as he had a feat that added his shield bonus to touch AC but it still came down to something like a 60% chance I'd hit and if I did death was automatic.
A few sessions before this I sliced a players Paladin character apart in one round with a half giant spiked chain wielder and an Eldritch Knight using the arcane strike feat. He performed the rather standard maneuver of stepping in front of the mage and cleric to cover them made an attack and his turn never came up again as he was stripped from full hps to going down with -3 hps after which I whacked him again with one of the half giants iterative attacks. Here again it was a case of 'If I hit your automatically dead - except in this case I hit and the Paladins brains splattered on everyone in a 20' radius.
Really its just brutal out there. I actually found that your block of butter gaming was true from around 4th-8th. At these levels there really were not many save or die effects floating around and it was a lot less common to encounter some brutal combo that simply erased PCs hps in one round.
Well thanks for the input everyone. I've decided that upping spell damage isn't worth it--weapon damage does increase exponentially, but only because character wealth increases exponentially. That's something that I've never liked and IME doesn't actually happen in many games.
Note that the weapon costs increase exponentially as well - I think your a lot closer to a linear damage increase. +6 and +7 swords cost a lot.