Grapple rules. Everyone loves them right? Sure you do… well; at least we have some sort of handle on them by now. Swelled with pride at our deft gaming skills, we use them in most cases without undue hassle and rampant house-ruling. After all, most of us are well educated individuals, and many of us even enjoy puzzles!
Now, let’s just throw in a Mimic or three. Just for spice. Welcome to the Sodden Hold, room D2.
Hmm… with its Adhesive and Crush abilities, we have some new elements of grappling fun. Oh lucky me.
To Quote the Monster Manual, page 186;
Adhesive (Ex): A mimic exudes a thick slime that acts as a powerful adhesive, holding fast any creatures or items that touch it. An adhesive covered mimic automatically grapples any creature it hits with a slam attack. Opponents so grappled cannot get free while the mimic is alive without removing the adhesive first.
A weapon that strikes an adhesive-coated mimic is stuck fast unless the wielder succeeds on a DC 16 Reflex save. A successful DC 16 Strength check is needed to pry it off.
Strong alcohol dissolves the adhesive, but the mimic still can grapple normally. A mimic can dissolve its adhesive at will, and the substance breaks down 5 rounds after the creature dies.
Crush (Ex): A mimic deals 1d8+4 points of damage with a successful grapple check.
Ok, that should be easy enough to play. Shouldn’t it?
Round 1
A mimic surprises the party with its cunning Mimic Shape ability, rolls an attack, hits a flat-footed PC with its first swing doing 1d8+4 damage and automatically grapples its target. I guess its second slam attack is lost because it’s now grappling. Right oh. Hmm, mimic’s don’t seem to have Improved Grab, so I guess it moves into the targets square to continue the grapple. Ok, I move 10’ and into my targets square. Let’s hope there is enough room because I happen to be a large critter. Squeezing and grappling would not be fun. Luckily, there is room.
Ok, the Crush ability. When does this happen? After a successful grapple check. Let’s see, does an automatic grapple constitute a successful grapple check? Hmm, I guess so. So I do an extra 1d8+4 crushing damage. Least, I think so...
I guess that's the end of my surprise round.
Round 2
We all roll initiative. A few PC’s beat me, and a few don’t, as is usual. The first PC to act happens to be the grappled one. I describe the sticky substance that seems to be holding him fast to this odd anamorphic creature. He looks up grapple in the PHB to determine his options. He decides to try and break free. He gets two attempts, but fails both times automatically. I explain how the sticky adhesive just seems to be far too strong to be overcome in this fashion.
The next PC decides to attack the critter grappling his friend, (note – attacking into a square with two people grappling each other always seemed a dangerous option to me, even with melee weapons. Hence, I have a house rule that a grappled ally provides some cover to the target. Using proportional cover, a medium sized grappled ally provides +2 cover to the large critter. Obviously, if the PC hits the cover, he may hurt his ally) risking the 10% chance he strikes the wrong target. He easily hits the mimic but his weapon becomes stuck. Oops. He want’s to pull it free. Hmm, doesn’t say if the required Strength check is a standard action or not. Going easy on him I rule it’s a move action. He tries, but fails the check (Another odd thing here. If the PC want’s to keep a hold of his weapon so he can pull it free next round, is he drawn into the grapple? If two combatants are rolling around in a grapple and your weapon is stuck fast to one of them, I don’t see how you could avoid it. But it would be a bit harsh to rule this way I think… so I’ll just ignore the implausibility of it all for the moment).
Ok, now the mimics turn. It’s in a grapple and only has a BAB of +5, so – despite two normally available slam attacks – it just gets one grapple attempt at +13. It succeeds, doing crush damage again of 1d8+4. I guess that’s all it can do from now on, unless it elects to dissolve its own adhesive and just fight normally?
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So, all in all, I think the players and I will find this a tricky little encounter to play.
My question to you is (with obvious house rule exceptions), am I basically playing this correctly? Is my use of grappling rules interacting with the mimic abilities correctly?
Hmm, perhaps that was a bit wordy.
Maybe next time I'll just ask; How do you guys play Mimics in a grapple?
Yeah, the crappy wording of the mimic's abilities is a shining example of the inconsistent writing for creature abilities. They created a style guide (the format the creature stat blocks are supposed to take), and thought it was a standard creature write-up procedure, but the two things are very different.
Ok, the Crush ability. When does this happen? After a successful grapple check. Let’s see, does an automatic grapple constitute a successful grapple check? Hmm, I guess so. So I do an extra 1d8+4 crushing damage. Least, I think so...
No! No it does not. The mimic "automatically grapples" on a successful slam attack because it is sticky. To inflict it's crush damage, it actually has to make the grapple roll, which would require a separate standard action on the next round. Treat it like any other creature that does damage on a successful grapple check -- the creature has to get the victim in a grapple first, then wait a round before it can start to do damage. The mimic is no exception.
Also....
I guess its second slam attack is lost because it’s now grappling.
Surprise rounds should only allow the surpriser either a standard or a move action. Not both. And definitely not a full attack action.
Also also, creatures in a grapple can still attack with either light or natural weapons, and a slam attack is a natural weapon attack, so it theoretically could make a second attack. Except for the whole surprise round thing.
I'm sure someone else will come along and correct my complete misinterpretation of the rules, but that's how I read the various rules involved.
Hi Sean. Thanks for your input. (o:
Yeah, the crappy wording of the mimic's abilities is a shining example of the inconsistent writing for creature abilities. They created a style guide (the format the creature stat blocks are supposed to take), and thought it was a standard creature write-up procedure, but the two things are very different.
Yes. It sure shows sometimes.
Ok, the Crush ability. When does this happen? After a successful grapple check. Let’s see, does an automatic grapple constitute a successful grapple check? Hmm, I guess so. So I do an extra 1d8+4 crushing damage. Least, I think so...
...No it does not. The mimic "automatically grapples" on a successful slam attack because it is sticky. To inflict its crush damage, it actually has to make the grapple roll, which would require a separate standard action on the next round.
Yes. I was quite unsure about this. I see your point about the grapple being more a function of the adhesive, and not a 'normal' rolled grapple.
Treat it like any other creature that does damage on a successful grapple check -- the creature has to get the victim in a grapple first, then wait a round before it can start to do damage. The mimic is no exception.
You think so? The thing is, in the Players Handbook p156, it says that 'Starting a Grapple' does damage on the first round, as part of a free action in Step 3 - "...you deal damage to the target as if with an unarmed strike". I was guessing this 'unarmed strike' would be a crush if a creature had that ability.
Most DM's (including me) playing monsters that 'grapple' are usually doing it because they have Improved Grab (and just hit with an attack). Improved Grab actually specifies that "A successful hold does not deal any extra damage unless the creature also has the constrict special attack. Hence, as you say, they usually do grapple damage the next round.
But the Mimic doesn't have Improved Grab. It has a special ability all of its own, with a quality like Improved grab, only in that it grapples after an attack (albeit automatically).
Argh, bloody confusing isn’t it...
Surprise rounds should only allow the surpriser either a standard or a move action. Not both. And definitely not a full attack action.
Ah yes, of course. I should know better.
Also, creatures in a grapple can still attack with either light or natural weapons, and a slam attack is a natural weapon attack, so it theoretically could make a second attack...
Yes, it could make an attack at -4 with is natural weapon (slam in this case), but due to only having a BAB of +5 (and no iterative attacks) I understand that to mean it can only do this once (See PHB page 156, under 'If You're Grappling'). Least that's how our gaming group understands it (but I can well imagine other playing groups seeing it a hundred different ways).
They keep saying 4E will solve all this confusion.
I have my doubts.
Oh, sure, maybe they'll simplify the grapple rules themselves, but I have my doubts that they'll solve the "consistency with creature write-ups" issue, and I'm sure there will be plenty of contradictory and confusing areas of the rules to replace the problems with the grapple rules.
I guess its second slam attack is lost because it’s now grappling.
Sounds right to me.
Right oh. Hmm, mimic’s don’t seem to have Improved Grab, so I guess it moves into the targets square to continue the grapple. Ok, I move 10’ and into my targets square. Let’s hope there is enough room because I happen to be a large critter. Squeezing and grappling would not be fun. Luckily, there is room.
No such thing as squeezing and grappling - if you can't move into your opponents square on step 4 of the grapple your forced to end it. Of course in this case there is a problem with the fact that adhesive makes it essentially impossible to end it. Here your going to have to make a DM call.
Ok, the Crush ability. When does this happen? After a successful grapple check. Let’s see, does an automatic grapple constitute a successful grapple check? Hmm, I guess so. So I do an extra 1d8+4 crushing damage. Least, I think so...
Your going to have to make some kind of a DM call here. Normally in step 3 you get to do 'unarmed strike' damage. For monsters and PCs thats based on their size with the exception of a monk. But this crush ability looks an awful lot like it replaces the 'unarmed strike'. It either replaces that for a Mimic or its another possible option in a grapple available to a mimic. If it replaces 'unarmed strike' your doing damage right here with the crush - otherwise your doing (non-lethal) damage based on the mimics size.
The first PC to act happens to be the grappled one. I describe the sticky substance that seems to be holding him fast to this odd anamorphic creature. He looks up grapple in the PHB to determine his options. He decides to try and break free. He gets two attempts, but fails both times automatically. I explain how the sticky adhesive just seems to be far too strong to be overcome in this fashion.
seems fine.
...He easily hits the mimic but his weapon becomes stuck. Oops. He want’s to pull it free. Hmm, doesn’t say if the required Strength check is a standard action or not. Going easy on him I rule it’s a move action.
Seems reasonable.
He tries, but fails the check (Another odd thing here. If the PC want’s to keep a hold of his weapon so he can pull it free next round, is he drawn into the grapple? If two combatants are rolling around in a grapple and your weapon is stuck fast to one of them, I don’t see how you could avoid it. But it would be a bit harsh to rule this way I think… so I’ll just ignore the implausibility of it all for the moment).
Yeah - thats a bit of a conundrum. I don't think you'd be drawn in, on the other hand I don't think you could maintain a hold of your weapon either. It'd get really fun if your wearing something like locked gauntlets. In this case I could see you being drawn in. If not I'd say you loose hold of the weapon.
Ok, now the mimics turn. It’s in a grapple and only has a BAB of +5, so – despite two normally available slam attacks – it just gets one grapple attempt at +13. It succeeds, doing crush damage again of 1d8+4. I guess that’s all it can do from now on, unless it elects to dissolve its own adhesive and just fight normally?
Looks that way to me. Note here though that we are facing a situation with multiple rule sets and what you can do depends a bit on what your calling canon. Essentially their are the rules as per the PHB, their are the rules as outlined in 'Rules of the Game' and then their are the rules from the new Rules Compendium - grapple rules are available as a free download.
The biggest differences I am aware of within these three rule sets are what happens with natural attacks. The PHB seems to imply that you can use a natural attack instead of doing grapple checks. Here the wording seems to imply you can only use one natural attack.
In the Rules of the Game article it states that a monster may use all its natural attacks in a grapple.
Finally the Rules Compendium basically says that a monster may use none of its natural attacks but must instead make a successful grapple check in order to use its 'primary' natural weapon. If it has a high BAB it could do this multiple times in a round.
Hence if you viewed the 'Rules of the Game' articles as canon then you could have the Mimic opt to not use the crush option and instead use its slams, but in this case in particular I'd not do it because it opens up a can or worms - your 'adhering' to an opponent your already adhered to. This makes little sense. The schtick of this creature seems to be to grab people and crush them - I'd stick to the script.
Okay, I see the problem. Clearly this is one of those entries which requires a certain amount of DM interpretation. Here are my suggestions:
Differentiate between "automatic grapple" and regular old grapple. If a character strikes the mimic (with an unarmed strike), he is automatically grappled and cannot get free. However, I'm not sure that this should impose a grapple penalty upon the mimic. It is not having to do anything to maintain the grapple, so I don't see that it should take it's normal penalties for grappling. However, because the character is stuck just somewhere on the body of the mimic, the mimic should not have the opportunity to crush either.
On the mimic's turn, it can lash out with a pseudopod for a slam. Subsequent sticking counts as automatic grappling (though in this case perhaps the mimic should now suffer penalties for grappling since it's pseudopod is now involved). If the mimic wishes to deal crush damage, it should have to make a regular grapple check, and without Improved Grapple, it should provoke the standard attacks of opportunity even from those that are stuck to it if the stuck people can successfully attack while grappling (i.e. they have a light weapon or unarmed strike and they take a -4 to hit). On a successful grapple, the mimic can then crush.
I'm not sure that I'm making sense here, but basically I'm trying to interpret the intent of the rules, and picking and choosing from the RAW for grapple to fit the circumstances. Any automatic grapple from stickiness shouldn't cause crush damage. Automatic grapples from attacks upon the mimic shouldn't penalize it for grappling. Automatic grapples resulting from a mimic attack should penalize it as though it were grappling.
One last thing: The rule about the grappler moving into the square of the being that he's grappling. I hate this rule. Not because it's not easy to adjudicate, but because most of the time, it makes no sense. The colossal red dragon grapples the halfling and has to move into it's square? Bah. I haven't drawn a big black line to decide when to ignore this rule, but if your grappling opponent is something like twice as heavy or four times as heavy or ten times as heavy, he ain't moving, and you're going to get drawn into his square if he grapples you. In this case mimics weigh 4,500 pounds. They're not moving. Characters should have to enter their square, setting the RAW aside.
I recognize that everytime one departs from the RAW you open yourself up to contradictions and problems. I'm not confident in my abilities to do this successfully, so I try to avoid it. But when the RAW is already full of contradictions and problems, I feel a little easier about making my sandbox work like I want it to. Mimics are a cool creature. I'd rather have the intent of their abilities pan out than have to follow some byzantine and nonsensical rules about it and thus make the monster more trouble than it's worth. Anyway, those are my two coppers.
Arrgh! Crap!
Just spent about two hours writing an in depth response to Jeremy's and Eltanin's great posts, but I must have taken too long, because when I hit the preview button something EVIL and NASTY decided to eat it!
Anyway, I hope to redo it tomorrow - but in the meantime - thanks heaps for everyone's helpful advice. The people in the Paizo community never cease to dazzle me with their intelligence and kindness. Your time and effort in posting has really helped me prepare for the next game session. I may even play this encounter now with an almost sage like confidence.
I'll post and tell you how it goes.
Cheers
(o: