So I'm caught in a bit of a conundrum with a specific aspect of wealth by level and I'm a bit curious how this works at various tables.
The issue pertains to keeping the players on track in terms of wealth by level. Presuming you hand out the recommended treasure, and presuming that nothing too extreme took place during this process your players should have received approximately the correct amount of treasure for their level – up to here I'm golden.
My issue is what to do after this point?
If they invest their money with wise bankers and make 7.5% interest compounded daily does that add to their treasure? Or is that free money they get for wise investments? More likely examples are if they fund part of say a merchant caravan or other similar idea.
Alternately what happens if a player tries to bribe his way into high office? Win or loose he's broke at the end – is that money that just going to regenerate through higher treasure later or will he always be behind the curve? A more likely example would be if the players are robbed or, for those DMs that use it, money spent on resurrections. Do they get this money back through higher treasure later or is it tough kitty toenails?
Part of what has prompted this is trying to figure out how I should value magic items that players are likely to find in treasure hoards. Many players sell the items but then some players don't – if they consistently sell them then there is a lot less gold floating about – so should these items really be valued as their buying value – on the other hand if the items are kept and I'm saying magic items are worth ½ their gp value in terms of wealth by level then excess gold seems to be entering the system.
For me this issue is being exasperated by my players – their all over the map in terms of behaviour regarding treasure. For the first 7 levels they instituted Communism. Everything went into the party pool (though the starting wealth loop hole created something oddly resembling a black market). After 7th level there was a revolution and everyone got their own share of the wealth with a small stipend going to a communal party pool and all the players complained about high 'taxs' until they where desperately in need of something that should have gone into the party pool – then they blamed each other for being greedy and short sighted.
Anyway after the end of the 'communist' era the players went freaken nuts with their gold. Depending on the player there are all sorts of ways they spend their cash. Some players are hoarders. They avoid at all cost buying charged or limited use items, more interestingly they'll take their money and happily buy the bad guys magic items from the party pool. Sure its not exactly what they wanted but its still a pretty good magic item and they get more gold if they keep it then if they sell it for ½ price.
Other players are more extravagant, loaded down with potions and such 'just in case' they're quick to down that one time boost to make them more powerful and they 'trade upward' in terms of magic items and such so that they not only sell their share of the magic treasure for ½ price to get stuff they actually want – their likely to actually sell these magic items (again for ½ price) in two or three levels in order to buy an even better ring or pair of boots etc.
I even have character that's really nuts in this aspect – not only does he do this but he psychically reforms his character to be optimized nearly every level. Quick explanation – psychic reformation is a psionic power that allows one to change your feats. Since none of the players are psionic this player is buying this power much like you buy a magic spell from an NPC mage. This is costing this player about a 1,500 gp every time he does it - 'course he has really good feats – but its making it very noticeable that his wealth by level is dropping compared to the rest of the players – especially the penny pinchers.
So what's a DM to do? If my players behavour is all over the map do I even bother paying attention to their wealth? Or just pay attention to what I gave them in the first place? Furthermore, in terms of wealth by level just how valuable is a magic item anyway? What you buy it for or what you sell it for?
When giving out treasure, pay attention to what the item would cost if you bought it. I wouldn't worry too much about what you gave the players in the past, just check their wealth every few levels and if they are ahead either make the bad guys tougher or hand out less treasure until it evens out. If their wealth is behind either make fights a bit easier or hand out more treasure until it evens out.
The guidlines for wealth by level are exactly that - guidlines. I don't obsess over it, I just check on it once in awhile to make sure the challenges I throw at my players are approximately appropriate. Heck, if figuring out the wealth levels is too much work just keep track of how the players perform against CR appropriate encounters. If those encounters are a challenge but not TPKing left and right then whether or not the wealth by level is 'on target' is irrelevant because the game is working as intended.
...if they are ahead either make the bad guys tougher or hand out less treasure until it evens out. If their wealth is behind either make fights a bit easier or hand out more treasure until it evens out.
This is good advice. Keep in mind, depending on the players, you might need to just average the group wealth and see if it is close. Most of my players are from the old school of 1e and 2e. As such they tend to share the wealth among themselves to make sure people who need the equipment get it. This can result in some players with more equipment and some with less based on the party's overall play style.
One of the players in my AOW game joked that they were a group of socialist out to save the world because they spread it wealth out where it did the most good for the group.
Truthfully?
Screw the wealth by level.
It exists to provide a starting guide (Timmy's tenth level WellDiver got killed and now he is writing up a ninth level Sherpa. How much do I give him to buy items?).
You can go the long way if you like. Ask for a player audit. Get them to total all the wealth they have and compare with the chart but most importantly each other. Then adjust the treasure accordingly Blah blah blah.
The wealth guide is truly just a way to make sure that players are equipped with the right potential to have the items they need to face the dangers they would face at that level. (ugh mouthful)
Too low: Bob the Gristled Fighter "Awww crap an iron golem, but I only have an old spoon and the thigh bone of the ghoul we defeated."
Too high: Sammy the Effeminate Elf "More goblins?!? My staff of Meteorswarm will take care of this!"
Just watch the party and judge how tough challenges are compared to how hard they were supposed to be. After all constintly worry about their wealth levels rewards crappy discisions "I blow my share of the dragon treasure on lotus powder and half-elf dancing girls!!! Wahoooh!" and punishes good decisions "I'm going to keep some of this treasure in gold in case we need bribes or the like later".
All good suggestions so far. I would also add that if your players are prone to selling their items to get what they want but are behind the curve becuase they are only getting half price, then you can adjust for this slightly. You can give out items that they are more likely to keep. You don't want to do this all the time since it's not realistic. Secondly, you could have people willing to trade for equivalent cost items so that they aren't falling behind in wealth.
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First of all, the tables are a guide. A guide. Nothing more.
Moving on.
If the players are making too much money on their own, then there are not enough bad things happening to them. My players wanted to 'buy' the Free City arena and keep it going as a way to make money. I created a formula that worked for me that made it possible for them to loose money if they didn't roll high enough. I don't care if it is a caravan business, or selling stocks. Going into business for yourself is not a sure thing and there should be some significant costs or risks involved if they want to go that route.
Another thing is that this is really up to your players. Giving them more or less 'money' or items really won't change a lot of the problems you are having. They need to work it out. Perhaps with you as a mediator, but it really isn't your problem.
If they spend money on something like a feat, then that is part of that person's ultimate "wealth". You should NEVER feel like you should make up the difference later on. If I buy a big screen tv, my employer doesn't say "you seem to be a little low this month -- here's some extra oportunity to make up for your tv cost."
It's your players job to figure this out. Not yours. If this is really bugging you, talk to the players about it, but you should not give out more or less money based on how greedy, selfish, generous, or what have you the players are.
Hope that helps.
The most extreme issue I'm facing is a widely divergent level of wealth between the players. Some of my players are penny pinchers. They never spend their wealth on charged items and they never sell old magic items to get more powerful stuff. They are probably fractionally higher then their expected wealth by level but its nothing dramatic.
However in the same party I have players that spend lots of their wealth on charged items, and they not only sell old magic items for more powerful stuff but, given a few levels they'll sell these more powerful items (for 1/2 price) again for even more powerful stuff. These players are dropping behind the guidelines noticeably.
Finally I have one really extreme player who does this and he psychically reforms his feats every level. The feats are optimum for that level but because he'll do it again next level its money vanishing into a black hole. He's becoming particularly unhappy, at this point the penny pinchers are a lot richer then he is.
Hence my issue is not so much keeping things running smoothly for the whole group - its that cracks are appearing when comparing one player to another within the group. Given enough time the individual players are getting to be widely divergent in their wealth. That Potion of Barkskin +5 that made one character amazing in a combat 3 levels ago is now a crutch - without it his AC does not really compare to a player that has been slowly upgrading his platemail and shield from +1 to +2 to +3 etc. but this just perpetuates the cycle - just to stay alive he now must spend his money one one shot power boosts.
Note that this effects what I can throw at to keep my players challenged as a group as well. Some players are increasingly just more powerful then others and as their power continues to diverge I end up in a state where a monster might be rather weak for some of the players while its too powerful for others.
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If they spend money on something like a feat, then that is part of that person's ultimate "wealth". You should NEVER feel like you should make up the difference later on. If I buy a big screen tv, my employer doesn't say "you seem to be a little low this month -- here's some extra oportunity to make up for your tv cost." ...
Moff, you need a new employer.
I agree though, money spent would have to be tracked as much as money given and it is the players choice to spend it on adventuring equipment or TVs. As already mentioned if things are balanced, then the amount is fine.
I think this really only matters for replacement/new characters. IMHO these characters often come in with this 'recommended' gp in adventuring equipment which seems unbalanced. How many healing potions/wands did the original character have to go through to survive to this level? Not unbalanced to the game per se, but to the rest of the party. In our game the replacement character with a +5 flaming sword, quickly cuts down the DR10/magic critter which the rest of the party has to struggle with. Do not get me started on the idiot...
Hence my issue is not so much keeping things running smoothly for the whole group - its that cracks are appearing when comparing one player to another within the group. Given enough time the individual players are getting to be widely divergent in their wealth. That Potion of Barkskin +5 that made one character amazing in a combat 3 levels ago is now a crutch - without it his AC does not really compare to a player that has been slowly upgrading his platemail and shield from +1 to +2 to +3 etc. but this just perpetuates the cycle - just to stay alive he now must spend his money one one shot power boosts.
Two things.
One- Talk to the players about what you are seeing. Maybe they can change their ways.
Two- Offer an in game solution. A sub optimal one. Like a loan or a powerful patron that asks for favours in return. "Fetch me the mask of the Phantom of the Opera!" "Good you have it! Excellent timing my neice was just kidnapped" This way the person has a chance to recouperate back to the partys general power level without be rewarded for spending all their money.
The most extreme issue I'm facing is a widely divergent level of wealth between the players. Some of my players are penny pinchers. They never spend their wealth on charged items and they never sell old magic items to get more powerful stuff. They are probably fractionally higher then their expected wealth by level but its nothing dramatic.
However in the same party I have players that spend lots of their wealth on charged items, and they not only sell old magic items for more powerful stuff but, given a few levels they'll sell these more powerful items (for 1/2 price) again for even more powerful stuff. These players are dropping behind the guidelines noticeably.
Finally I have one really extreme player who does this and he psychically reforms his feats every level. The feats are optimum for that level but because he'll do it again next level its money vanishing into a black hole. He's becoming particularly unhappy, at this point the penny pinchers are a lot richer then he is.
Hence my issue is not so much keeping things running smoothly for the whole group - its that cracks are appearing when comparing one player to another within the group. Given enough time the individual players are getting to be widely divergent in their wealth. That Potion of Barkskin +5 that made one character amazing in a combat 3 levels ago is now a crutch - without it his AC does not really compare to a player that has been slowly upgrading his platemail and shield from +1 to +2 to +3 etc. but this just perpetuates the cycle - just to stay alive he now must spend his money one one shot power boosts.
Note that this effects what I can throw at to keep my players challenged as a group as well. Some players are increasingly just more powerful then others and as their power continues to diverge I end up in a state where a monster might be rather weak for some of the players while its too powerful for others.
The ability to change feats sounds impressivevly powerful so I think he has what he paid for. the rest of the party has had to settle/plan for the feats they have. Consider the +1 dodge bonus' value at 1st level compared to 20th level. I would not think he is underpowered in terms of wealth. I understand the distance between the players though, (you scooped my reply :) but you may have to create the challenge to fit their individuals strengths (rust monsters/entangle spells). Or decide which way you (or your players) want to go and create challenges directed that way. If this adventure bores/upsets some, explain the reason out of game.
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Honestly, sounds like player problems that they need to work out. You have given them all the resources they need. If they squander them their is their problem. Not yours.
I would continue as is and when it comes up point out their choices. That player chose to spend cash on feats stuff rather than buy the weapon he needed. His choice. If he is poor, too bad.
I played in a game recently where we had a guy playing a lizardman. He wanted a silly hat that made an illusion over him so he looked human. The party needed money badly for other items related to the quest. He bought the hat anyway.
Later that game night he was BADLY injured and needed healing and restorations like crazy. He didn't have any money left so he asked us to pay for his healing. I asked why? I told him to go sell his hat that he didn't need then we would pay the difference and he would pay us back. He didn't like it but had no choice.
Ok, so he gets all healed and makes some money and goes and buys that stupid hat again. Again we need a lot of money for equipment for a quest. He decides he won't get the potions of healing and takes the hat. Later that same game session, we get the crap beat out of us. He is hurt bad and wants one of my last potions. I tell him "no", chug a potion, "go drink your hat." He dies. We take his stupid hat and sell it :)
He made his choices with the money he was given. He has to live or die with those choices. It may not be fun for him but it is no fun for anyone else to be giving him money all the time either. I play for fun, not to support bums.
...Note that this effects what I can throw at to keep my players challenged as a group as well. Some players are increasingly just more powerful then others and as their power continues to diverge I end up in a state where a monster might be rather weak for some of the players while its too powerful for others.
Jeremy,
I think you're going to have to play tough with your players on this one. Throw some challenging monsters at your group and if the weak characters go down, then so be it. The players will either adapt or keep dying.But before you do this, I'd have a short talk with your players about why you're concerned and what you think they should do to try to start 'catching up'.
Oh yeah - I should also point out that the spendthrifts have something of a legitimate beef with me (and the tight fisted players). It goes like this. So some of the players are using one or limited use magic items in my adventures - or their optimizing their characters via feat rebuilds or constantly selling weaker magic items for more powerful stuff.
The result was that they where clobbering the encounters. As a DM I see my players blazing through the encounters repeatedly and so I start to up the challange level - essentially to keep the game challenging I 'punished' players usually be using devious tactics or by picking creatures in the high end of their CR. At the time I justified this because I felt that part of my job as a DM was to keep the game challenging. But now the players that have been burning through their gold are pointing out to me and the penny pinching players that they've been ripped off and unfairly punished. After all without them nobody could have beaten that dragon ambush. it was their optimizations that saved the whole party - not to mention dunking Potions of Barkskin +5 and Sheild of Faith +6, knocking their AC through the roof and going toe to toe with the dragon (and innumerable other encounters along these lines).
If I had not increased the challenge level just because they were busting the adventures too easily they'd have not needed to use all their powerful one use magic nearly as often or optimize their magic items quite as much and they'd be a lot richer right now.
I see their point - ultimately I'm at fault for trying to keep the party challenged and my only real excuse is 'you started it!!!' If you had not started using those potions and such so often I'd have not upped the ante. Its a lame excuse for a DM to make - I should have realized here that my job was not to keep the players challenged but to let them bust the bad guys and let the issue self correct when the gold got tighter.
These players are calling for a reboot - but I realize that while their beef is pretty much accurate - the party could not have beaten the dragon ambush etc. it also meant that these particular players got to be the star of the show. The penny pinchers have been mainly supporting caste up until this point - if I reboot then I punish them for their frugal ways - which are only now starting to pay off.
Oh yeah - I should also point out that the spendthrifts have something of a legitimate beef with me (and the tight fisted players). It goes like this. So some of the players are using one or limited use magic items in my adventures - or their optimizing their characters via feat rebuilds or constantly selling weaker magic items for more powerful stuff.
I think the best way to deal with it is to not deal with it. I keep a character wealth tracking spreadsheet and then after every session I total the loot the characters find and divide by the number of players and add that value to the spreadsheet for each character. Then periodically I check the value in spreadsheet against the DMG table and adjust the treasure handed out based on it.
What the players do with the loot is up to them.
Note: to encourage use of found charged (or 1 use) items during the session I don't include the 1 use items or charges used during the session in the total look found.
To me it seems like their beef should be with the other party members. If character a takes his loots and buys a whole bunch of potions and expendable items, while character b invests in a tavern, when there is a big fight and character a has to use all his expendable gear to save the party's bacon he should be annoyed with character b for not having pulled his weight in the fight. There is no call for him to blame the dm.
I recommend to my players that they divide loot as follows. Everything is split equally. 10-20% is docted from each player and goes into a communal pool and is used to buy healing magic and items the paryt might need (say a diamond for a raise dead spell). If a magic item is recovered and a character wants it he pays for it out of his share of the loot. If he can't afford it the item gets sold or he owes the other characters the difference.
At this point it becomes a character decision as to how to spend their wealth. I have one player who has been investing money in a trading coaster and a stronghold, while other characters save up and buy magic items. One of the latter players cringes that the former player is throwing all his loot into things that don't improve his character's combat power, but that is a rping choice by that character's player, and if he finds encounters tougher because he doesn't have the magic he needs that's his problem.
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QUOTE="Jeremy Mac Donald"] Oh yeah - I should also point out that the spendthrifts have something of a legitimate beef with me (and the tight fisted players). It goes like this. So some of the players are using one or limited use magic items in my adventures - or their optimizing their characters via feat rebuilds or constantly selling weaker magic items for more powerful stuff.
The result was that they where clobbering the encounters. As a DM I see my players blazing through the encounters repeatedly and so I start to up the challange level - essentially to keep the game challenging I 'punished' players usually be using devious tactics or by picking creatures in the high end of their CR. At the time I justified this because I felt that part of my job as a DM was to keep the game challenging. But now the players that have been burning through their gold are pointing out to me and the penny pinching players that they've been ripped off and unfairly punished. After all without them nobody could have beaten that dragon ambush. it was their optimizations that saved the whole party - not to mention dunking Potions of Barkskin +5 and Sheild of Faith +6, knocking their AC through the roof and going toe to toe with the dragon (and innumerable other encounters along these lines).
If I had not increased the challenge level just because they were busting the adventures too easily they'd have not needed to use all their powerful one use magic nearly as often or optimize their magic items quite as much and they'd be a lot richer right now.
I see their point - ultimately I'm at fault for trying to keep the party challenged and my only real excuse is 'you started it!!!' If you had not started using those potions and such so often I'd have not upped the ante. Its a lame excuse for a DM to make - I should have realized here that my job was not to keep the players challenged but to let them bust the bad guys and let the issue self correct when the gold got tighter.
These players are calling for a reboot - but I realize that...
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I don't think it is your fault at all.
I regularly use monsters on the high end of the chart as end bosses for them to fight.
Their complaint is with each other and players are using money in ways that other players don't like. They need to settle the matter. You might bring your concerns to them and lat them hash it out.
You have done your job. Make them stop whining and settle the problem.
I think both of Krome's posts (and many others here) are right on. This is not the DM's fault. It certainly isn't wrong for you to up the challenge if they are blowing through them too easily. I think they are pinning a false argument against you to try and get you into a guilt trip to have their way. Perhaps their play style simply favors a certain mode whihc is best implemented at a certain level range (when the money is available to buy those one-shot items and the payoff in terms of power boosts relative to opponents it highest). The other players favor more linear approaches that really pay off in the high levels, which it sounds like you are now getting to.
The only thing I might object to at all was even allowing the feat retraining option to be used to much, but that's a DM preference. You're okay with it, I something's rotten in the state of Denmark, and that's the end of it.
This is a player issue. They need to bite the bullet and learn their lesson. Don't worry yourself over it.
At any time when the PCs are in their 'normal' state (that is, they haven't just been robbed blind, or won second place in a beauty contest), they should be reasonably close to the Wealth per Level table (assuming the DM even uses that guideline, of course).
So, if the PCs invest their money for a steady 7.5% profit, then the DM no longer has to give them out quite as much treasure going forward. Conversely, if a PC blows all his money on bribes to try to get into high office, the Dm should gradually award more treasure to make up the difference.
Note that the Wealth by Level guidelines exist for balancing purposes. As such, they apply only to the character's 'active' money. So, that stronghold the Paladin has pain-stakingly built doesn't count - he can't take it on adventures with him (usually). Similarly, if a character has 1,000,000 gold pieces sitting in a cave somewhere, those gold pieces 'don't count' as far as the guideline in concerned. (That's not to say that the DM should then give the latter character more treasure to make up the 'shortfall' - unless the circumstances of the campaign somehow prevent the PC from simply using that money to buy gear that suits him. There is no guideline for how best to handle a character with lots of 'dead' money. Good luck with that.)
One trick I found useful for treasure: at the start of the campaign, give the players lots of valuable but hard to shift artworks, statuettes, and jewellery. Give them access to a merchant/fence who they can reasonably trust, and who can shift the items for them (and procure appropriate magic items for them in turn), but who will take time in doing so. Then, at opportune moments, have said contact contact them saying he has shifted some item or other, and present them with the money. Voila - no more need to worry about giving out 'correct' amounts of treasure!
I recommend that you tell your players the tale of the ant and the grasshopper. It will maintain the right fantasy tone when you tell them, "And now it's winter."
Isn't that the one where the grasshopper lazily plays music all summer while the ant works hard to stock up for the winter. When winter comes the Grasshopper asks the ant for food, that ant refuses so the grasshopper eats the ant?
No - wait, that might be the version of the fable meant to get us to reflect on bureaucracy.
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Isn't that the one where the grasshopper lazily plays music all summer while the ant works hard to stock up for the winter. When winter comes the Grasshopper asks the ant for food, that ant refuses so the grasshopper eats the ant?
No - wait, that might be the version of the fable meant to get us to reflect on bureaucracy.
8-)
Are your characters good or evil?
Isn't that the one where the grasshopper lazily plays music all summer while the ant works hard to stock up for the winter. When winter comes the Grasshopper asks the ant for food, that ant refuses so the grasshopper eats the ant?
No - wait, that might be the version of the fable meant to get us to reflect on bureaucracy.
8-)
Are your characters good or evil?
Good with a single CN (tendencies toward evil) exception.
He made his choices with the money he was given. He has to live or die with those choices. It may not be fun for him but it is no fun for anyone else to be giving him money all the time either. I play for fun, not to support bums.
A most poignant phrasing Sir Krome, one which I shall be using with relish this weekend...
Looks like the general consensus is "tough kitty toenails."
This line of reasoning strikes a chord with me as well. I must be going soft to even be listening to these guys b@!&&ing and moaning.
OK so the response is going to be essentially 'I tracked your treasure and you guys got the correct amounts and made your wealth by targets - I don't give a rats rear what happened to the gold after that, it's none of my business and not my problem.
Wealth by level is rising pretty dramatically in these levels anyway and they should be able to essentially dig themselves out of their money problems - given four levels the money that they 'lost' with excessive one shot items and to much trading in will only be a small fraction of their total potential wealth. The difference between 120,000 gp and 150,000 gp is not that dramatic. Beyond that if I take a hard line I have a strong suspicion that the penny pinchers will lend the rest of the players gold on the condition that they buy permanent magic items with the loan and pay them back in a few levels.