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So I had some thoughts on de-vancianizing the wizard...
A wizard is the ultimate student of magic, a master of arcane and esoteric arts. They may draw upon their internal reserve of magical knowledge to great effect.
Instead of preparing and casting spells per the current system, the wizard uses his skill and mastery to draw upon arcane energy.
To cast a spell, the wizard must succeed on a Spellcraft check, with a DC equal to 15+ twice the spell level.
Instead of increasing spell level, the level modifier of meta-magic feats is applied to the DC of this roll. For example, maximizing a 2nd level spell would be DC 15 + 4 (2x spell level) + 3 (meta-magic modifier) or 22.
A wizard starts play knowing all of the meta-magic feats in the player’s handbook (others must be purchased as normal)
A wizard can choose to gain a +2 circumstance bonus by referring to their spell book while casting, but this makes casting at least a full round action, and may require a move action to look up the spell. (It is not necessary to repeatedly look up the same spell, unless the wizard casts another while referring to the book.)
A wizard cannot attempt to cast a spell of higher level than his half his current level + 1. (ie the same as the highest level spell a normal wizard can cast)
A wizard who fails the roll by no more than 5 may attempt to save the spell next round, or can “ground” the spell energy taking 1 point of damage per spell level (minimum 1)
A wizard who fails the roll by more than 5, but less than 10 automatically takes 1 point of damage per spell level (minimum 1), with no chance to control the spell.
A wizard who fails the roll by more than 10 takes 1 point of damage per spell level, and additional 2d6 damage.
Every time a wizard takes damage from failing to cast a spell, they take a cumulative +1 modifier to the DC of their casting roll until they can rest for a full 8 hours.
Special: Eliminate the concentration roll and combine it with this roll, casting defensively is DC 20 base instead of DC 15. The Combat Casting Feat now applies to spell craft when this option is selected.
Taking damage is DC damage taken instead of DC 15 (minimum 15).
Game effect: Wizards get the feel of being masters of magic, and they are really tapping into dangerous forces. Even a starting low level wizard can use some a lot of magic with minimal risk, having an average spellcraft modifier of 7 (4 ranks, 16 int) means they cast 0th level spells on an 8, and 1st level spells on a 10).
To balance the power shift, I would probably give all sorcerers an extra spell known for every level, the ability to cast in light armor, a bonus heritage feat, and let them also pick spells from the cleric list. This would make them way more versatile, and mesh better with their increasingly unusual backgrounds (fiendish heritage, dragon heritage.
In general I like the feel of your rules, though I actually like Vancian magic. One area where I could see problems is that the check to cast a spell is far too easy, especially if a character takes Skill Focus (Spellcraft). At 1st level, casting a 1st level spell would be successful on a 5 or higher which completely negates the "danger". By 17th level the check for a 9th level spell would succeed on a 2 or higher by a typical wizard with Skill Focus (20 ranks + 9 int bonus + 3 skill focus).
I think you would be better served to change the spell casting check to be based on caster level (at 3rd level, the check would be d20+3) and modify the DCs appropriately. With spellcraft the increasing int bonus of the wizard and possibility of Skill Focus or a magic item to increase Spellcraft can wreak havoc on your rules.
Interesting system. Some aspects are similar to a Magic Use skill (subs for Spellcraft) in the Black Company Campaign Setting d20. An example is here. BCCS is a bit more sympathetic in its damage for failure in that the caster has a "buffer" of spell energy to protect against damage if they choose not to use it to increase the chance of making the DC, and the damage they take is nonlethal.
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I like the concept and most of the implementation, and I like the DCs...a mage currently doesn't run into much that disrupts spellcasting so why should these variants. I assume that damage taken by the mage during casting increases the DCs as normal. I would change the damage to nonlethal though for miss casting.
Also for the metamagics I would still make the wizard have to take them as feats but maybe give them one bonus one at 1st level. Metamagics would still require the skills to cast, but the wizard would need to research and test for a while (sounds like a feat to me) to learn how to focus their energies into a metamagicked spell.
a mage currently doesn't run into much that disrupts spellcasting so why should these variants.
Well, with this variant the mage doesn't have a limit to how many spells he can cast in a day unless he misses his check by 5 or more. If the wizard never misses the check by 5 or more, then he will be casting the highest level spells he knows all day long. That's the reason I thought the check was too easy.
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a mage currently doesn't run into much that disrupts spellcasting so why should these variants.Well, with this variant the mage doesn't have a limit to how many spells he can cast in a day unless he misses his check by 5 or more. If the wizard never misses the check by 5 or more, then he will be casting the highest level spells he knows all day long. That's the reason I thought the check was too easy.
Hmmm. Hadn't thought of that, how about a 5 point DC raising overall? Would that it into line with a 5%-10% chance of failure? Any higher chance of failure starts eating into a mage's ability to be a steady contributor to the group, IMO.
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Humm, 1st level spells would have a DC of 22 to cast which puts them into a rather high area for 1st level mages...
4 ranks+ int modifier of +3ish= 7 or so ranks.... not a great chance of getting the spell off at low levels...the Mage would however be able to cast all day long (until the damage raised the DCs too high, anyway).
That may be a fair trade, but I'm not sure.
Skill focus would almost be mandatory at first level.
Need a better fix.
I have been kicking around an idea for something like this for my house rules.
As it is, I'm now cobbling together some grim and gritty house rules, similar to Grimcleaver's system.
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In general I like the feel of your rules, though I actually like Vancian magic. One area where I could see problems is that the check to cast a spell is far too easy, especially if a character takes Skill Focus (Spellcraft). At 1st level, casting a 1st level spell would be successful on a 5 or higher which completely negates the "danger". By 17th level the check for a 9th level spell would succeed on a 2 or higher by a typical wizard with Skill Focus (20 ranks + 9 int bonus + 3 skill focus).
I think you would be better served to change the spell casting check to be based on caster level (at 3rd level, the check would be d20+3) and modify the DCs appropriately. With spellcraft the increasing int bonus of the wizard and possibility of Skill Focus or a magic item to increase Spellcraft can wreak havoc on your rules.
Looking at it again, you are correct the DC is off. The trick is striking the right balance so that a first level wizard isn't hosed, while a 20th level wizard isn't perfect.
On average, a casters skill grows by 1.25 points per level, starting at a base of 7-10. Using this system Skill focus spellcraft becomes a no brainer. so 9+(1.25 x Level)...
Looking at it in spread sheet form, that means we should look at a base DC of 25
The value needed to cast the highest level spell when you just learn it is about 15-17 (this includes skill focus, so 20, or even 22 might be somewhat better) and then lower level spells are proportionally easier
I like the concept and most of the implementation, and I like the DCs...a mage currently doesn't run into much that disrupts spellcasting so why should these variants. I assume that damage taken by the mage during casting increases the DCs as normal. I would change the damage to nonlethal though for miss casting.
Also for the metamagics I would still make the wizard have to take them as feats but maybe give them one bonus one at 1st level. Metamagics would still require the skills to cast, but the wizard would need to research and test for a while (sounds like a feat to me) to learn how to focus their energies into a metamagicked spell.
I would agree to making the basic damage non-lethal, but the mishap damage (the 2d6 for flubbing the roll) should remain lethal.
I rolled the basic meta magics (still, silent, extend, enlarge, enpower, maximize, and quicken) in at the begining because they all seem pretty basic. This opens up a lot of ground for wizards to cast a wide variety of spells, and pick up other feats they may like.
Oh, and looking at the DCS based on the 25, it would be possible to let a wizard try any spell as long as they didn't need a 20 to seucceed. This would let 2nd level casters with skill focus gett off a third level spell on a natural 20. Might be an interesting option.
You could roll the same mechanic into using a scroll the caster isn't high enough to use, letting the scroll grant a +5 or so...
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Oh, and looking at the DCS based on the 25, it would be possible to let a wizard try any spell as long as they didn't need a 20 to seucceed. This would let 2nd level casters with skill focus gett off a third level spell on a natural 20. Might be an interesting option.
Except for the whole 1/2 Caster Level +1 for highest level spells able to cast.
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Oh, and looking at the DCS based on the 25, it would be possible to let a wizard try any spell as long as they didn't need a 20 to seucceed. This would let 2nd level casters with skill focus gett off a third level spell on a natural 20. Might be an interesting option.Except for the whole 1/2 Caster Level +1 for highest level spells able to cast.
Yeah, I meant dropping that.
A 3rd level mage couldn't put much oomf in a fireball, and it would be hard as hell to cast, but they might be able to pull it off in a dramatically appropriate scene
Make it a caster level check, like Eric Tillemans said. Skill checks are just too malleable to function as a class' primary mechanic. The first problem is that skill checks become easier and easier to make; even if you set the DC up so that a 1st level wizard needs a nat 20 to cast a cantrip, there will inevitably come a level at which he only needs a nat 1 to cast his highest level spells. And if you were to remove the 1/2 caster level (round up) cap on spell level...you're just asking for trouble. The second problem is that there are sooo many ways to twink out skill checks; items, spells, feats, classes. There are ways to get HUGE skill bonuses even at low-low levels. Again, you're asking for trouble.
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I don't like the feel of a caster level check. It just doesn't sit right with me that someone who has natural talent backed up by study and practice (stats and ranks) is exactly the same as somebody without.
Also, your assessment is not true that there is always a point at which the check DC falls apart.
Statistically normalized wizard has a 16 in int 4 ranks in spell craft, and maybe a feat for +2 to +3. So a basic roll bonus of 9 (assumed 10 is possible)
On average a skill improves by 1.25 per level, this includes stat mods for level, inherent bonuses, other feats etc. This is an average, not necessarily a certainty.
so 9-1.25 = 7.75
So the roll bonus is 7.75+ level *1.25 (ranging from 9 to 32 at 20th level)
25 + 2 x spell level gives us a range from 25 (0th level) to 43 (9th level)
looking at it side by side
spell level, first cast at, and roll needed you get:
0, 1, 16
1, 1, 18
2, 3, 18
3, 5, 17
4, 7, 17
5, 9, 16
6, 11, 16
7, 13, 15
8, 15, 15
9, 17, 14
So yeah, it skews a bit as a caster masters more and more magic. But that makes a bit of sense. It encourages a wizard to take more and more spell craft boosting feats (i don't allow spell craft boosting items ever, same as UMD) which robs them of their really cool meta magic, and item creation, and some of the other nifty feats, like point blank shot, or weapon focus ranged spell, or spell penetration
I don't like the feel of a caster level check. It just doesn't sit right with me that someone who has natural talent backed up by study and practice (stats and ranks) is exactly the same as somebody without.
It all depends on how you interpret the mechanics--caster level in my mind is the same thing as spell craft. And who says talent has to play a part in every aspect of spellcasting, especially with such a practice derived class like the wizard? If you really want talent to play a part in this mechanic, add it to the caster level check. (thought I still woulnd't recommend it)
Also, your assessment is not true that there is always a point at which the check DC falls apart.
Unless each DM who uses this mechanic modifies the DC formula based on what types of skill boosters he allows and expects, there is. Do you really want every DM to have to go thru all this math in order to come up with the proper spell craft formula, which is more likely to come out as something like 15 + (2.36 x Spell Level) than a nice formula like 15 + (2 x Spell Level)?
You can project probabilities for statistically normalized wizards, but in play there is no such thing as a 'statistically normalized wizard'. So in all likelihood, wizards in play will either have an easy time making the skill check or a very hard time making the check depending on how optimized the character is. Keep in mind, some DMs don't have a problem saying 'no spell craft booster items' but there are still dozens of cheesy class, spell and feat combos that throw your calculations out of whack. Not all DMs are willing to go thru them all just to make sure that one class is playable. And if a DM is willing to go thru all that trouble, it would still be easier to use caster level checks because caster level is not nearly as malleable as skill mods, without all that time and effort.
PS Maybe you don't care about epic levels, but I'd be interested in how you'd handle this mechanic at 19+.
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Well, I admit that the system has problems. And I won't pretend to be any more perfect than anyone else.
Ideally I would like to find a balanced system that works out of the gate without being too complicated. I can't see your argument though about someone who decides to throw feats and ranks at being a caster not being a better caster than someone of equal level. With skill focus and the +2/+2 feat they get a total of +5, and after that they may get a +1 here or there, but a character only gets 7 feats. 2/7ths of their feat selection is tossed into one aspect of their character.
For a different point of view, how far can a character jump? If I amke a character purely for jumping, taking feats, stats, classes, and geatr to maximize my potential, the number gets rediculous. (barbarian for extra speed, halfling for racial bonus, boots of striding and spring, skill focuses, skill synergy, leap of heavens... it can be rediculous) Does it break the game that someone can focus their entire character on a single action and do it really well?
I don't use any epic stuff, and aside from some goober pointing and drooling all opver them self screaming about hellball, i know nothing about the epic level spells. SO I can't really respond to that.
Anyway, 25+2xspell level seems to be pretty consistent. It would be perfectly consistent if it wasn't for the fact that stats improve and people tend to want to improve casting stats and such sillyness.
The difficulty maintains some parity (even into the epic i presume) because having easier access to basic meta magic would encourage people to use it more often.
I still think a caster level check would solve the problem of consistency. But if you insist on keeping it a spellcraft check, how about DC20 + 3x Spell Level? This way the DC gets slightly harder over time, but I think it's fairer at high levels where high level spells dominate.
For a different point of view, how far can a character jump? If I amke a character purely for jumping, taking feats, stats, classes, and geatr to maximize my potential, the number gets rediculous. (barbarian for extra speed, halfling for racial bonus, boots of striding and spring, skill focuses, skill synergy, leap of heavens... it can be rediculous) Does it break the game that someone can focus their entire character on a single action and do it really well?
If that action is jumping, no. If that action is spell casting, yes. Spell casting not only has a major impact on combat, arguably the single most important event in the game, but it also has the potential to affect every other event in the game. So I'd say that yes, it will break your game when someone decides to make a wizard under your new rules and tricks himself out to be able to cast 3rd level spells at 1st level. Let us know how it goes; maybe you're lucky enough to have players who have an absolute 0 interest in power gaming and it'll work out fine in your game.
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I still think a caster level check would solve the problem of consistency. But if you insist on keeping it a spellcraft check, how about DC20 + 3x Spell Level? This way the DC gets slightly harder over time, but I think it's fairer at high levels where high level spells dominate.
I pumped this into the spreadsheet I have working on this, and it actually turns out very well.
I admit that someone can still tweak their character to be a rediculously good caster, but I think that still balances with not being able to do much else.
Some further notes, a specialist gets a +1 to cast spell in their school, and a -1 to cast spells outside their school.
Having reviewed it as much as I can without playtest, i think getting all of the metamagic from level one is a bit much. Maybe silent, still, and heighten at level one, and then a progression as they level. Honestly, metamagic is something else i was trying to fix at the same time because nobodu in my group takes the traditional feats, always taking the sudden feats instead.
One last thing, rolling a 1 is automatically treated as failing by 10 or more, so even a level 20 wizard takes a minor risk when using even a minor spell.
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Anyway, to rebut the argument of uber casters, looking outside the SRD at prestige classes, master specialists, class variants, and some of the feats available, you can have a first level character casting 2nd level spells already. It is also possible to pile on other abilities that make a very focused caster very very good
For example is a varisian sorcerer with summoning... take spell focus conjuration, augment summoning, varisian tattoo, and fiendish heritage, and you can cast spells with a +3 caster level, +4 strength and +4 con, and if you buy a varisian idol, get +2hp per hit die. Sure it takes every feat you get up to 6th level, but it works on any summon monster. And if you grab the feat that lets you cast a buff spell on the creature while summoninning it...
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As for players with 0 interest in power gaming. I have those, for sure. But I also maintain control. If I see a combo get too powerful, I do something about it. May be a side conversation, may be a rust monster, maybe just a mook assigned the task of harrassing the character.