Dextrous Combatant Feat ???

[Rezdave]

Opinions sought. I don't own any splatbooks, so feel free to quote or make reference ...

Rather than multiple feats for Weapon Finesse with individual weapons, unarmed fighting styles, etc., what about a single Dextrous Combattant feat (or Armed/Unarmed pair) that would allow a trained combattant to substitute Dexterity bonuses for Strength Attack bonuses?

Note that a separate feat would be required to substitute Dex. for Strength in Damage bonuses, but again would cover all bases.

While considering my response in the Multi-limb grapple? thread I became increasingly frustrated with the Strength-over-Dexterity bias of D&D. Having trained in several armed and unarmed fighting styles I understand the natural bias and recognize that training is required to overcome this inclination.

However, once a person has been trained in one weapon or fighting-style to rely on dexterity and technique over brute strength it is much easier to apply that knowledge and experience to a new weapon or style.

It just seems that it should be easier in D&D terms to make a low-Strength high-Dex. Asian-inspired martial artist who is a master of jujutsu, swordfighting, quarter-staff, spiked-chain and so forth without burning every feat slot on Weapon Finesse.

Basically, I think a set of at-most 4 feats should be enough, one each to substitute weapon attacks, weapon damage, unarmed attacks (and grapples) and unarmed damage.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

Rez

[mevers]

Um... You may want to check the 3.5 rules. Now, Weapon Finesse does apply to all weapons. It sounds like you are still using the 3.0 version.

As for Dex to Damage for a feat, I'm not sure. It would be Awesome for Rogues, causing them to pump out even more damage. Although there is a feat in ToB that lets you add Dex to Damage with Shadow Hand (I think?) weapons, which include Shortswords, generally the light weapon of choice. Although i would be inclined to allow it, as it still doesn't come close to spells for raw power. But maybe it adds Dex [i]instead]/i] of Str to damage, or half Dex, or something.

If you want to make an Asian inspired Martial artist, then cehck out the sword sage from ToB. With the right feats and maneuvers, you should be able to accomplish exactly what you want.

[Ender_rpm]

Yup, 3.5 revised Weapon Finesse to include all light weapons a character is proficient with.

now for damage, it still takes muscle to power a blade through several layers of cloth, leather, chain main, and flesh. I can see sneak attack, they are undefended, and I can see insightful strike (swashbuckler) because you are smart, but making DEX the only relevant combat stat seems a bit silly. I hurt you more because I am faster than you? Mind you, in all my games, we find DnD as written is biased in favor of high dex characters already. THis would push it over the edge.

[Rezdave]

Ender_rpm wrote:

Yup, 3.5 revised Weapon Finesse to include all light weapons a character is proficient with.

now for damage, it still takes muscle to power a blade through several layers of cloth, leather, chain main, and flesh.

Thanks, guys, for pointing out the Edition change. Somehow I missed that one, and now that I look back it's even in the Update Guide.

Still, from my experience with a katana, staff, spear, etc. I can assure you that Dexterity can apply in the case of a "bastard sword" as much as any "light" weapon.

Furthermore, dextrous cutting will get you through more layers of cloth, muscle, bone, etc. than simply power. Again, when test-cutting wet rolled bamboo mats, you can tell who is using "power" (Strength) rather than "technique" (Dexterity) in their cuts because the blade will stick in the mat or result in an incomplete cut (ala "nearly-headless-Nick").

Makes one thing blunt weapons should use Strength for damage while edged ones shoud use Dex.

Besides, it could be argued that all attacks (hitting the target) should be based on Dex and then damage based on Strength ... but then every attack becomes a touch-attack and armor becomes DR ...

I hate trying to make D&D "realistic".

Ender_rpm wrote:

Mind you, in all my games, we find DnD as written is biased in favor of high dex characters already. THis would push it over the edge.

I haven't found it so, and I think the math on Two-Weapon Fighting vs. a two-handed Power Attack esp. against an opponent with any kind of DR somewhat bears this out.

Also, I'm talking about needing several feats to reflect all the training required.

OTOH, since you both pointed out my oversight on Weapon Finesse and the fact that one instance of the feat covers both light and natural weapons, now a combattant with WF could apply Dex. in a grapple as well without needing a separate unarmed feat.

I feel a little better now, anyway :-)

Rez

[Rezdave]

While separately discussing this through my group, the question came up whether Weapon Finesse should remove any Strength penalty from damage.

After all, if you have removed Strength from your attack and replaced it with good and dextrous technique, why does it make an appearance again when it's time to roll damage?

Musing,

Rez

[Fatespinner]

Rezdave wrote:

While separately discussing this through my group, the question came up whether Weapon Finesse should remove any Strength penalty from damage.

After all, if you have removed Strength from your attack and replaced it with good and dextrous technique, why does it make an appearance again when it's time to roll damage?

I would make it a separate feat with Weapon Finesse as it's prerequisite. Otherwise, a character with 4 Strength, 18 Dexterity, and Weapon Finesse would suffer next to none for having such an abysmally low stat (aside from encumberance, really). Stat penalties should be penalties and they should not be so easily dismissed. Otherwise, you open the floodgates for min-maxing.