Some time ago, I toyed with the idea of giving some aspects of the beguiler to the bard. I'm not really sure about balance, though. Beware that some of the following things may be overpowered, because I haven't really thought about it much, and I'd like to hear from you whether they are balanced enough and ideas for how to make them better.
For this model of the bard, I'm pretty set on completely removing bardic music altogether, making the class more like a sneak or adventurer (or beguiler). Now, one of the main issues here is "what is bardic music worth?" It is my hope that by removing it, we can boost the power of the bard in other areas, particularly spellcasting.
My first basic idea was that the bard gets all the spells the beguiler can cast. Of course, the bard can only cast up to 6th level spells. I'm wondering if the bard could receive a spellcasting boost in other ways, in addition to more spells added to the list. I like how the beguiler works, having a set list of spells to cast from and being able to spontaneously cast any of them up to his limit.
Is it too much to leave the bard as is, but remove bardic music and instead add all the beguilers spells (up to 6th level) and the ability to cast like a beguiler?
I'd also very much like to increase the spells per day a bit, if possible. Maybe something a little like the duskblade? Basically I want this so that the bard can be a competent (but limited) spellcaster from the get go (which includes casting 1st level spells).
Summary: Is it too much to replace bardic music by adding the beguiler's spells to the bard's spell list, allowing bards to know all their spells and spontaneously cast them, increasing their spells per day a little (at least enough to cast one or two 1st-level spells at level 1)? If this is too powerful, what are some other suggestions?
Typing that summary, it does sound like too much, but I'm still not sure, so I'll wait for your responses (maybe it'll bump the bard into a category where more people want to play it in a party of four, instead of the fifth/support character).
For reference, here's all the PHB spells that the beguiler has, which the bard does not. When I wrote this list (a while ago) I was only writing SRD/OGL spells, so the PHB2 spells aren't in the list. The list also shows the differences in levels for spells that the beguiler and bard get at different times. However, remember that while a bard gets spells like shadow walk as a 5th level spell instead of 6th level, a beguiler gets 6th level spells at 12th level, while a bard only gets 5th level spells at 13th level (and only if he has high enough Charisma, otherwise he has to wait till 14th level).
1st: colour spray, mage armour, obscuring mist
2nd: fog cloud, knock, see invisibility**, spider climb, touch of idiocy
3rd: arcane sight, hold person*, nondetection, suggestion*, zone of silence**
4th: charm monster*, confusion*, crushing despair*, solid fog
5th: break enchantment*, dominate person*, feeblemind, hold monster*, sending, telepathic bond
6th: greater dispel magic*, mass suggestion*, mislead*, repulsion, shadow walk*, true seeing
*Bards do get this spell, but one level earlier
**Bards do get this spell, but one level later
Okay....hmm...
I am first off trying to figure out what you are trying to do. Are you trying to create something like a beguiler that has a higher BAB? Bear in mind, with the exception of Bardic Knowledge, every other class feature a Bard has is part of their Bardic Music.
i.e. What is you desired end result?
Here is a brief description of what it seems you want....
Modified Bard
-Midtier BAB (+15@20th)
-Good Reflex and Will saves
-Bardic Knowledge
-Beguiler Spell-list (But Maxing out at 6th level spells)
-Beguiler Spell Spontaneity
-A Duskblade-like spell Progression chart (to 6th, not 5th)
That is my understanding of what you are getting at, the part I don't quite get is why is it necessary to make a Bard of this sort. Bardic Music is the essential heart of the Bard class.
It might be easier to add a Knowledge feature to the Beguiler (if that is even an ability that you are trying to keep).
When designing a variant class it is always good to look at the two classes you are working between and determine which would require less work to get you where you want it to be.
The thing I am unsure on is, why the need for this variant to begin with?
Is there some VERY specific niche that needs filling for your campaign or is it simply trying to give the Bard more Oomph?
I will say as a bit of advice that usually its not a good idea to do the work of constructing a new character class or variant if it isn't necessary. That is why I ask.
Is the role this variant would fill, not one that may be filled by either a Beguiler or Bard?
Grindor, I have to admit that I'm not clear on why we're starting with bard. Why not start with beguiler as the base class and modify that, since it seems closer to what you're after (no music, better spellcasting). One possibility would be to start a character as a Beguiler, then multiclass into Prestige Bard. You keep the music and bard's BAB, but get the beguiler's spell list instead of the bard's.
Thanks guys, maybe I should've thought this through more before posting (and gotten some sleep first). You both make good points. I'll try to explain, if I can, but maybe this whole concept is flawed/futile.
It's not a specific niche I wanted to fill, it's basically that I wanted to beef up the bard a bit, but didn't want the music. As you point out, it's probably better to start with beguiler and remove some things. One of the reasons I didn't do that - I think... - was because I didn't want any of the beguiler's class features, just the spell list. So, therefore it seemed better to start as bard and add in a few more spells. Then I realised I wanted more spells per day, and so on, until it started getting further away from bard and closer to beguiler.
Here's the things I think I want:
* Bard's BAB progression
* Bard's and Beguiler's spells
* Bardic Knowledge
Everything else is optional, I guess. So, you can see that 3/4 of that is bard stuff, just adding the beguiler's spells in. But then, I slowly started wanting more beguiler stuff.
I guess the whole reason for this is that nobody ever plays bards in my group and don't really like the music ability; they're also new, so tracking the bonuses is something easily forgotten. I'm always passively on the lookout for things that would make the bard more attractive, and I wondered - seeing the music ability isn't for my group - what I could replace it with.
I could just offer the beguiler instead, but I would like a higher BAB, Bardic knowledge, and the bard's spells (mostly so they've got some healing and still fill the bard's spell niche).
As I said, I haven't thought about this much or for a while. Do you know of any variant bard with less of a focus on music? And/or can we tweak the beguiler to make it what I'm looking for?
Sorry for the poorly thoughtout concept, guys. I hope this helps clarify things, but as you can see, I'm not all that clear on it myself. Just looking for a less music-based alternative to the bard, I guess. Thanks again.
* Bard's BAB progression
* Bard's and Beguiler's spells
* Bardic Knowledge
I'd probably go rogue 3/beguiler 2/prestige bard, or maybe straight beguiler until 6th level, the segue over to prestige bard (for better spells and some more beguiler abilities). But then again, I love the "prestige" variants for bard, paladin, and ranger, so my view is a bit biased. You get everything you were after (BAB progression, spell lists, bardic knowledge), and still have the bardic music as icing on the cake (take your Perform in Oratory instead of an instrument, if it fits the flavor you're after a bit better). Thing is, I get a kick out of trying to build what I want out of the SRD rules, as non-conducive as they are towards some ideas.
I'd probably go rogue 3/beguiler 2/prestige bard, or maybe straight beguiler until 6th level, the segue over to prestige bard (for better spells and some more beguiler abilities). But then again, I love the "prestige" variants for bard, paladin, and ranger, so my view is a bit biased. You get everything you were after (BAB progression, spell lists, bardic knowledge), and still have the bardic music as icing on the cake (take your Perform in Oratory instead of an instrument, if it fits the flavor you're after a bit better). Thing is, I get a kick out of trying to build what I want out of the SRD rules, as non-conducive as they are towards some ideas.
Thanks for the reply. I also like building things out of the SRD. I guess that's sorta another reason why I started with bard, seeing as beguiler isn't part of the OGL. But your above suggestion is good, and if I don't have to reinvent the wheel, then I should avoid it.
Well... that rogue 3/beguiler 2/prestige bard seems fine. Also gives some sneak attack, which is always nice.
Seems to give what I want without building anything new. Great :) Thanks.
By the way, you've reminded me that I was meaning to have a better look at the other prestige variants. I've never used them before. What is your attraction to them, may I ask?
Prestige variants fit that idea from fantasy stories and the like that are the character somehow gaining something new and rich from added up experience. At least that's the fluff/roleplaying angle as far as I see it.
Something else to consider:
There's nothing in the Bardic Music class feature that explicitly says you have to be musical with it, just that you have to use a performance skill.
In my RL game, I'm currently playing a bard who doesn't sing or play an instrument. He tells stories.
In combat, I explain the bardic music effect by saying my bard is always quick with a pithy quip, a la Peter Parker.
Actually that's a good point. A bard can just as easily be an orator (Odysseus) a poet (Homer, Chaucer) and even a playwright. (Shakespeare)
Prestige variants fit that idea from fantasy stories and the like that are the character somehow gaining something new and rich from added up experience. At least that's the fluff/roleplaying angle as far as I see it.
Yeah, that does work well. I think I saw someone complaining that bards are just entertainers who get up and go adventuring, then they're suddenly magical, but with the prestige bard it's a different story because you have to get experience and earn that first.
There's nothing in the Bardic Music class feature that explicitly says you have to be musical with it, just that you have to use a performance skill.
That's true about non-musical performances. I think there's even a weapon drill perform skill in some book. I think if someone in my group was thinking about a bard but hesitant, I'd emphasis the different "flavours" you can have, by using different types of perform skills.
However, it was more the effects that I was thinking about, not the fluff surrounding them. But, Kirth's suggestion has satisfied me, and I've just gotten the last player in my next game to confirm his character class (none of them are bards) so I won't even need to think about this again for quite sometime.
Thanks for your input everyone :)
THREAD: COMPLETE!
HIGH SCORE: K I R
By the way, you've reminded me that I was meaning to have a better look at the other prestige variants. I've never used them before. What is your attraction to them, may I ask?
I'm not sure why I like them so much. Maybe because the paladin is a lot like a fighter/cleric, so it always made sense to me that they'd start off as fighter/clerics and become paladins as kind of an organic extension of that. Same deal with rangers.
The spell lists and progression for paladins and rangers in particular always bugged me, too, seeming artificial and "tacked on"; the prestige variants just provide progression in the original spellcasting class, but at half the rate (to make up for the other nifty abilities), which somehow sits better with me.
Yeah, I think the fighter/cleric example is a good one. And continuing the spells of the previous class is pretty cool. For my next campaign I'll have to have a good look at them and see whether I want to make them "official" in my game.