ok so we casting a sleep spell against a group of ((lets say the same example as the players handbook gives)) a rat, kobold , 2 gnolls and a ogre.and most of us know it of course only affects 4 hd of creatures starting with the lowest.Ok our question is what if kobold rat and gnolls make their saves..can the spell then effect the 4hd ogre?..
ok so we casting a sleep spell against a group of ((lets say the same example as the players handbook gives)) a rat, kobold , 2 gnolls and a ogre.and most of us know it of course only affects 4 hd of creatures starting with the lowest.Ok our question is what if kobold rat and gnolls make their saves..can the spell then effect the 4hd ogre?..
No. The spell only interacts with the lowest 4 HD of creatures. If those creatures make their saves, well too bad.
ok so we casting a sleep spell against a group of ((lets say the same example as the players handbook gives)) a rat, kobold , 2 gnolls and a ogre.and most of us know it of course only affects 4 hd of creatures starting with the lowest.Ok our question is what if kobold rat and gnolls make their saves..can the spell then effect the 4hd ogre?..
Actually, I'd have to say it would.
The Sleep Spell says:A sleep spell causes a magical slumber to come upon 4 Hit Dice of creatures. Creatures with the fewest HD are affected first.
So it will keep trying everything in the radius burst until out of elegible creatures, or 4HD worth of creatures are effected.
-c
EDIT: changed avatar identity
Pres_man thats what my pal thought also..so we read it reread it..looked thru a ton of other older books..and it still seemed to me it would be like freeclint says..so I guess it could be either way..still unsure also.
I'd say its just the first 4 HD. I would think you would adjudicate the targeting of a spell and then adjudicate its effects. So the first 4 HD worth of creatures are targeted. The spell does not then respawn should some of them make their saves or have magic resistance that happens to work in this case.
Conveniently for us the sleep spell description in the Players Handbook extends out the description vis a vis the SRD by giving us an example. In the Example Mailee casts sleep at a pack of creatures of a wide range of HD. The example clearly states that the sleep spell only effects the lower HD creatures and not the higher HD ones because there are enough HD worth of weaker creatures to use up all but a fraction of the 4 HD in question.
Quote from 2E:
“When a wizard casts a sleep spell, he causes a comatose slumber to come upon one or more creatures (other than undead and certain other creatures specifically excluded from the spell’s effects0. All creatures to be affected by the sleep spell must be within 30 feet of each other. The number of creatures that can be affected is a function of Hit Dice or levels. The spell affects 2d4 Hit Dice of monsters. Monsters with 4+3 Hit Dice (4 Hit Dice plus 3 hit points) or more are unaffected. The center of the area of effect is determined by the spellcaster. The creatures with the least Hit Dice are affected first, and partial effects are ignored.
For example, a wizard casts sleep at three kobolds, two gnolls, and an ogre. The roll (2d4) result is 4. All the kobolds and one gnoll are affected. Not that the remainder is not enough to affect the last gnoll or the ogre.”
To me this says that the spell does not “roll on”. It attempts to strike the specified dice of creatures in the specified order. If they save…too bad.
I don’t know what differences there might be in the various 3x incarnations, but from what’s been said so far, I get the idea there have been no major substantive changes. But, this seems to answer it for me.
To me this says that the spell does not “roll on”. It attempts to strike the specified dice of creatures in the specified order. If they save…too bad.
IIRC, in 1e/2e, though, there was no save. Now there is. Given that the number of HD has already been nerfed, and it's been given a save, the question is: is it a viable spell if you can't try again after the first guy saves? Still undecided here, but there should be SOME reason to take sleep instead of color spray, for example--and if sleep is too much weaker, there won't be.
Evidently, this spell was created to take out of the picture the lowest level cannonfodder enemies, kobolds, goblins, commoners and the like because these are the targets who are likely to fail a Will save vs
a DC 11 + ability bonus...
if they save once in a while, what the hell, send the warrior-type characters to hack them down...
so yes, it's pretty useless on higher levels, but you still have Deep Slumber if you want to spare their life or just get in somewhere without alerting the guards...
oh, and there is always the option of researching a spell to satisfy your needs, isn't there?
To me this says that the spell does not “roll on”. It attempts to strike the specified dice of creatures in the specified order. If they save…too bad.IIRC, in 1e/2e, though, there was no save. Now there is. Given that the number of HD has already been nerfed, and it's been given a save, the question is: is it a viable spell if you can't try again after the first guy saves? Still undecided here, but there should be SOME reason to take sleep instead of color spray, for example--and if sleep is too much weaker, there won't be.
I'd say the advantage of the sleep spell is the 100+ foot range. color spray is an awesome spell but its dangerous. Your going right up in front of the nasty monsters (range is a 15' cone). If they make their saving throw - well thats bad for a guy who, at first level, has about 3 hps and an AC of maybe 12. In other words if that Orc with his falchion makes his will save - well then its pretty much over for our mage. Sleep on the other hand can be used while cowering behind big burly fighter types.
I'd say the advantage of the sleep spell is the 100+ foot range. color spray is an awesome spell but its dangerous. Your going right up in front of the nasty monsters (range is a 15' cone). If they make their saving throw - well thats bad for a guy who, at first level, has about 3 hps and an AC of maybe 12. In other words if that Orc with his falchion makes his will save - well then its pretty much over for our mage. Sleep on the other hand can be used while cowering behind big burly fighter types.
Which is why I can't understand why they made Deep Slumber close range. That makes it even less likely that someone will take it.