I was writing out some stats for a tiny Chain Golem familiar and had a couple questions.
Since they're immune to magic, is the delivery of touch spells for masters even possible?
What about their abilities? Being a construct, they have no INT, so they wouldn't gain the INT bonus for being a familiar, correct?
Would the golem's natural armor change any? I belive it was around +11 or +12, but that was for a medium golem. What about a tiny one?
And, seeing as most familiars grant their master some form of bonus, what would be an appropriate bonus for the Chain golem? Or should I even bother?
The idea was that this tiny chain golem was drawn to my char who aquired a set of Kyton armor (Magic Item Compendium). It sees him as a Kyton and thus, serves him as his familiar. I forget the name of the feat that allows familiars, but he took it to help justify their bond.
-Kurocyn
I was writing out some stats for a tiny Chain Golem familiar and had a couple questions.
I can offer suggestions only; your DM is course the final arbiter.
Since they're immune to magic, is the delivery of touch spells for masters even possible?
By the rules as written, the two are totally independent. Iron golems are immune to magic, and can still use cloudkill, for example.
What about their abilities? Being a construct, they have no INT, so they wouldn't gain the INT bonus for being a familiar, correct?
That sounds both logical and reasonable. I'd go with that approach, too.
Would the golem's natural armor change any? I belive it was around +11 or +12, but that was for a medium golem. What about a tiny one?
I'd reverse the Medium to Huge bonus, and subtract it instead (-2 for Small, -3 for Tiny) for a final natural AC bonus of +8 or +9.
And, seeing as most familiars grant their master some form of bonus, what would be an appropriate bonus for the Chain golem? Or should I even bother?
Was thinking +1 to natural AC, but that's a bit better than most of the other familiar bonuses. Then again, what good is a chain golem familiar? At size T, it should be slow, so it's not a good scout, and with no Int, you need to tell it exactly what to do all the time. So maybe +1 natural AC isn't unreasonable.
The idea was that this tiny chain golem was drawn to my char who aquired a set of Kyton armor (Magic Item Compendium). It sees him as a Kyton and thus, serves him as his familiar. I forget the name of the feat that allows familiars, but he took it to help justify their bond.
Seems like a fairly cool concept; I certainly wouldn't discourage it in my campaigns.
Seems like a fairly cool concept; I certainly wouldn't discourage it in my campaigns.
Wow... Thank you. Used to getting attacked over new stuff... ^ ^
I'm still up in the air about the touch spells. (The character is an assassin, if that matters at all)
The natural armor bonus sounds good. Going off of other tiny sized critters, I made its DEX 25... Too much? With its DEX, +7; Kirth's natural AC suggestion, +8; its size mod, +2; and the additional AC bonus from being a familiar, +4(if the master's caster lv is what I think it is); it gives the golem an AC of 31. Sound right?
I like the natural AC bonus to its master, too.
Also, having gathered my books and char sheets, I have more questions.
The char is a lv 5 Rogue, lv 8 Assassin. That makes him a lv 8 caster correct? And if so, his familiar has Speak with Master and Speak with animals of its kind. Should my char be able to communicate with the golem? Can it communicate with other golems? Just chain golems? Constructs in general?
-Kurocyn
Wow... Thank you. Used to getting attacked over new stuff... ^ ^
Not here. :)
I'm still up in the air about the touch spells. (The character is an assassin, if that matters at all)
Touch spells is good. Does the familiar have reach with its chains?
The char is a lv 5 Rogue, lv 8 Assassin. That makes him a lv 8 caster correct? And if so, his familiar has Speak with Master and Speak with animals of its kind. Should my char be able to communicate with the golem? Can it communicate with other golems? Just chain golems? Constructs in general?
Yeah, 8th lvl caster. Speak with master would always apply - the master and the familiar are bonded and communicate in a means only they can understand. For communicating with its own kind, I would probably limit it to constructs of the same size, or same size and one size larger. Or, you could rule that the golem could communicate with all constructs, but at varying penalties depending on the size.
My thoughts. Cool idea, I can see a pampered noblewoman with a chain golem familiar made of mithral chains. :)
Yes, it does have reach, but at that size, its reach is 5 feet. ^ ^;;
I wasn't for sure about the Speak with master because of its lack of INT score... Not really a reason why it shouldn't work though... Nothing wrong with telepathy or the like. ^ ^
Regardless of how the touch spells are ruled, there is something else that's just as good. The golem's poison immunity, combined with an assassin's poison use... *grin*
Despite how sweet a mithral chain golem would look, I've sketched mine out to be more the standard blackened/rusted look...
-Kurocyn
Wow... Thank you. Used to getting attacked over new stuff...
The trick is to put up reasonably play balanced new stuff.
If some one makes a feat that quadruples the characters strength bonus to damage and has something completely limp for a prereq (like BAB +3) and then posts it asking what others think - well now I'm likely to jump down their throat. Probably much to their dismay since posters like this seem to naturally presume that every one is going to see their cool feat and naturally bow down to their brilliance.
Yes, it does have reach, but at that size, its reach is 5 feet. ^ ^;;
Whats its damage out put? Can one coat the chains with poison or something and then have it attack multiple times?
If it does have anything like that then the bonus of a plus to natural armour seems too good. In fact if its any good in combat at all (most familiars really are not except maybe with touch spells) then I'd make the familiar bonus a real throw away. +2 to skill checks to use non-magic mechanical devices or something, just to try and keep this balanced with, say, a rat familiar.
The natural armor bonus sounds good. Going off of other tiny sized critters, I made its DEX 25... Too much? With its DEX, +7; Kirth's natural AC suggestion, +8; its size mod, +2; and the additional AC bonus from being a familiar, +4(if the master's caster lv is what I think it is); it gives the golem an AC of 31. Sound right?
I'd actually drop that a bit, because it's hard for me to envision a bunch of chains as being particularly nimble as opposed to, well, clanky. I'd give him a 15 Dex (max) and a -4 penalty to Move Silently checks. Also unfortunately for your golem, its magic immunity sort of negates its "share spells" ability in most cases.
The char is a lv 5 Rogue, lv 8 Assassin. That makes him a lv 8 caster correct? And if so, his familiar has Speak with Master and Speak with animals of its kind. Should my char be able to communicate with the golem? Can it communicate with other golems? Just chain golems? Constructs in general?
How about metal constructs (iron golems, chain golems, shadesteel golems...)? Although the CL thing is tricky, because familiar abilities are based on the master's wizard or sorcerer class level, not caster level. You'd have to look at the feat description and work this out with the DM; it may be that you're stuck with 1st level abilities only.
Regardless of how the touch spells are ruled, there is something else that's just as good. The golem's poison immunity, combined with an assassin's poison use... *grin*
It would have to be a contact poison to apply to chain attacks, though, as there are no slashing edges to carry an injury-type poison.
Reference Jeremy's concerns with its combat ability as well; I concur. But keep up the questions! We'll get you a cool, balanced familiar yet!
Whats its damage out put? Can one coat the chains with poison or something and then have it attack multiple times?
Actually, its damage is 1D4 plus wounding (-2 HP per round until heal check or magical healing). And I was planning on coating the golem with poisons. As for multiple attacks, I'm not for sure... The PHB says to use the master's BAB with the familiar's STR or DEX mod (whichever is greater), so that puts their BAB at +9/+4, with a +16/+11 right now with its current DEX.
If it does have anything like that then the bonus of a plus to natural armour seems too good. In fact if its any good in combat at all (most familiars really are not except maybe with touch spells) then I'd make the familiar bonus a real throw away. +2 to skill checks to use non-magic mechanical devices or something, just to try and keep this balanced with, say, a rat familiar.
Accounting for everything above, yes the golem could actually aid in combat, so no bonus to the master then...
The natural armor bonus sounds good. Going off of other tiny sized critters, I made its DEX 25... Too much?I'd actually drop that a bit, because it's hard for me to envision a bunch of chains as being particularly nimble as opposed to, well, clanky. I'd give him a 15 Dex (max) and a -4 penalty to Move Silently checks. Also unfortunately for your golem, its magic immunity sort of negates its "share spells" ability in most cases.
I pumped its DEX because everything I could find about making/re-sizing monsters of that/to that size indicated a crazy DEX score. The standard Chain Golem has a DEX of 18, if I remember correctly. And, I already have a negative modifier to the golem's move silently checks, but since it uses its master's ranks with its ability mod, the penalty isn't even noticable. His master is an assassin after all.
The char is a lv 5 Rogue, lv 8 Assassin. That makes him a lv 8 caster correct? And if so, his familiar has Speak with Master and Speak with animals of its kind. Should my char be able to communicate with the golem? Can it communicate with other golems? Just chain golems? Constructs in general?How about metal constructs (iron golems, chain golems, shadesteel golems...)? Although the CL thing is tricky, because familiar abilities are based on the master's wizard or sorcerer class level, not caster level. You'd have to look at the feat description and work this out with the DM; it may be that you're stuck with 1st level abilities only.
The metal construct idea sounds good. As for the class/caster lv issue, I belive the feat Obtain Familiar makes you use your class lv for determinng the familiar's abilities. Not for sure, as I don't own the book it's found in. Complete Arcane/Divine?
Regardless of how the touch spells are ruled, there is something else that's just as good. The golem's poison immunity, combined with an assassin's poison use... *grin*It would have to be a contact poison to apply to chain attacks, though, as there are no slashing edges to carry an injury-type poison.
Acutally, a Chain Golem's chains are bladed, spiked, weighted, and generally pointy. More than enough to get an injury poison through. (add to that the wounding ability, plenty of open wounds...)
Thanks for all of the help guys. Any more ideas?
-Kurocyn
A familiar with jacked-up combat ability like you describe would be an improved familiar, not a regular one, so by my reckoning you'd need 2 feats to get it (one for getting a familiar, the second for getting something a LOT better than a normal animal) and you'd also take a hit to your effective level when it comes to figuring its abilities (per the Greater Familiar table). A single feat gets you something equivalent to a rat or cat--I was envisioning like 1 bludgeoning chain attack for 1d4-2 (low Str) or something, and no wounding.
If you could provide a reference for the base chain golem (stats & size), I'll look at reducing it and what kind of level adjustment you'd end up with. (I'll be out on a job site for a few days, but maybe at the end of next week I could have something for you.)
A familiar with jacked-up combat ability like you describe would be an improved familiar, not a regular one, so by my reckoning you'd need 2 feats to get it (one for getting a familiar, the second for getting something a LOT better than a normal animal) and you'd also take a hit to your effective level when it comes to figuring its abilities (per the Greater Familiar table). A single feat gets you something equivalent to a rat or cat--I was envisioning like 1 bludgeoning chain attack for 1d4-2 (low Str) or something, and no wounding.
You do have a point. But I'd much sooner down-grade the golem than take an additional feat/effective level penalty for it. Maybe taking the Improved Familiar feat could augment his exsisting familiar into what I have above.
As for the golem, would leaving its DEX at 18 (a normal Chain Golem's DEX) and keeping the lowered STR of 10 and natural armor of +8 work? With that, its loosing +7 of its AC, and +3 off its REF save. I really like the bleeding concept and don't want to loose it. Oh, and it does only attack with one chain; it's the master's BAB giving it two attacks.
Really, I would think said changes are enough, because comparing it to a normal familiar isn't fair. Those still get INT bonuses, can deliver touch spells, be effected by benifitial spells along with their master, be detected via their master's Scry, and naturally heal on their own/be healed via magic.
The golem can't do any of that. The only sourse of healing available to it is through fire. Fire heals Chain Golems. My assassin has a minor fire augment crystal that he uses if there isn't a bonfire nearby. And the touch spells/shared benifitial spells/scrying have already been ruled out by its immunity to magic (<-save for fire which heals it and electicity which Slows it)
If you could provide a reference for the base chain golem (stats & size), I'll look at reducing it and what kind of level adjustment you'd end up with. (I'll be out on a job site for a few days, but maybe at the end of next week I could have something for you.)
As for original stats, I can't say, it was my friend's MM. The ones I remember are mentioned above. But it was Medium size and its natural armor was +12. And it had an additional Chain Barrier ability. Works as Blade Barrier but adds +4 to its AC and deals like, 7D6 damage or somethig... I had already dropped it. It has several bonus feats on its own as well.
But as said above, I think anymore changes would be too much, considering the healing aspect. I don't know about everyone else, but that seems really big to me considering what happens to a caster if they loose their familiar.
-Kurocyn
Really, I would think said changes are enough, because comparing it to a normal familiar isn't fair.
Hate to say it, but a normal familiar (as opposed to an improved one), is always just a Tiny animal--or at least should have equivalent AC, attacks, etc. and no wounding:
Chain Golem Familiar
Tiny Construct
Init +2
AC 15 (+2 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural)
Speed 20 ft., climb 20 ft.
Chain +4 melee (1d3-4)
SQ magic immunity, construct traits
Abilities Str 3, Dex 15, Con --, Int --, Wis 12, Cha 5
I know that's not what you had in mind, but without spending the extra feat and taking the level hit, there's not much else you can do with a familiar. Exotic ones in the rules as written are always improved familiars, and yours, while lacking Int, has immunity to magic and is also immune to critical hits, ability loss/drain, and a whole slew of other stuff already. No reason you couldn't use him to deliver touch spells, though.
If the "normal" stats leave you feeling *blah* (they do for most players), then you could ask your DM about taking a flaw, for which you'd receive a bonus feat you could use to take Improved Familiar and get something more along the lines of what you're after.
Another option: multiclass into Wizard for one level. Here's how it would work:
1. As a wizard, you get a normal familiar for free.
2. Talk your DM into letting you swap Scribe Scroll for Improved Familiar as your 1st-level wizard bonus feat, giving you the chain golem you want.
3. See if your DM will let you take the Theurgic Bond feat so that your assassin levels stack with your wizard level to determine the familiar's abilities.
Now you've still spent only one feat, but you've got what you were after. Granted, you're slightly behind on BAB, hp, and skills, but you've got a bunch of low-level spells to make up for it, and you can now use a wand of fireballs for example, without needing to make Use Magic Device checks.
If you decide to go the improved familiar route, my suggestion would be:
Chain Golem Improved Familiar
Tiny Construct
Init +5 (Dex)
Senses low-light vision, darkvision 60 ft.
hp 16 (3 HD)
AC 22 (+2 size, +5 Dex, +5 natural)
Speed 20 ft.
Atks 2 chain rakes +9 melee (1d4 plus wounding)
SQ construct traits, magic immunity, resistance to ranged attacks
Abilities Str 10, Dex 21, Con --, Int --, Wis 11, Cha 1
Feats Combat Expertise (B), Dodge (B), Weapon Finesse (B)
Effective Level Adjustment: -3 (master counts as 3 levels lower than actual when determining familiar’s abilities).
For Str, Dex, and damage, I've started with a Medium chain golem and then reverse-sized it (per the Monster Manual rules for increasing size, except applied backwards) until I got to Tiny. I've tried to balance the level modifier with Improved Familiars of similar power (e.g., a Small monstrous centipede or scorpion has a -2; by contrast, an Imp has a -6 adjustment, so you have to be at least 7th level just to get an imp familiar).
If you still feel like you're being short-changed, there's actually a separate feat to change a normal animal familiar into a construct familiar (same stats, just change type and make Con --), but I figured in this case that 2-3 feats is enough already (although your DM may disagree). The long and short of it is, playing by published rules, good familiars are really hard to get.