I read this a few minutes ago and it is just so sad. I only know what has been reported, but I've always felt that a strict vegan lifestyle was very dangerous to a person's health. To impose this on a newborn baby that needs all of the nutrients that were intended for human beings to grow makes me sick to my stomach. I don't want to condemn vegans becuase I know a few on these boards that I highly respect. I would just say, people, please be careful about alternative diets and your children.
You saying feedin' my boy Elmo nuthin but schlitz cans ain't helfy?
Methinks there's a missing link.
BTW, I'd say, as a long time student of nutrition, that with vegetarian source omega 3's out there I don't think there's any credible basis for suggesting that my diet poses a great danger to my health (but it's certainly open for debate and I promise to not get touchy). With the exception of the way my teeth fall out of my head and my hair turning blue, I feel just fine.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
I don't think the take-away point has anything to do with veganism whatsoever; that's just the sensationalist headline to get your attention. The story is: negligent parents kill child. Most of the time, you don't notice the story because the parents kill the child by hitting said child, abandoning such child, etc. This time, there was an easy to understand concept and ready made story: parents practice alternative lifestyle and their child died.
If you're going to buy the Veganism made them do it tagline here, I'd like to introduce you to the Columbine killers that killed people because they played Doom and, our community favorite, the psychotic persons that kill because they played D&D.
We suffer enough crap when people blame our hobby for criminal conduct. I'm surprised and irritated to see such blame getting embraced for another similar lifestyle choice that is safe when practiced properly (which, the majority of its practioners do). Veganism didn't kill this child, bad parenting did.
I didn't even see the link. Lemme read.
Edit: Saw it. Agree with Sebastian.
When you become a vegetarian you can either do your research and eat well, or be one of those junk food veggies. When you have a child you can either research nutrition for babies or you can feed your kid crap.
These parents just suck, and even if the kid was getting turkey gerbers at regular intervals, I have a feeling they'd leave him outside overnight on accident. If you're going to bring your kid up vegan you need to book up and learn the best way in which to go about it. Then again, I could say most parents have no clue what's actually in their kid's milk and it ain't good, lemme tell ya. Maybe we all need to book up.
I'd be very careful about using this story to draw any conclusions about vegans and infant nutrition. The key issue was the parents, not the diet. As the prosecutor said:
“The child died because he was not fed. Period.”
My experience with vegans is jaded (not a pun, Rone) and somewhat limited. The two friends I had that practiced it with great disdain for anybody that didn't were very unhealthy and I dare say, sickly. On the other hand, I've known a lot of vegetarians (NOT vegans) that were incredibly healthy.
I agree with Sebastian about the sensationalism of this article and admit to falling for it. However, I still feel it's worth pointing out that people be careful with your diets especially with children. Probably the more important message is to be responsible parents.
Oh, and FWIW, I thought this would be an intereststing thread to start for its "debate" value ;).
My experience with vegans is jaded (not a pun, Rone) and somewhat limited. The two friends I had that practiced it with great disdain for anybody that didn't were very unhealthy and I dare say, sickly. On the other hand, I've known a lot of vegetarians (NOT vegans) that were incredibly healthy.
I agree with Sebastian about the sensationalism of this article and admit to falling for it. However, I still feel it's worth pointing out that people be careful with your diets especially with children. Probably the more important message is to be responsible parents.
I've known a good few vegans who were great parents and had lovely, smart, and healthy children. A few preachy vegans know how to throw off the PR curve and make us all look sanctimoniously elitist. So far as I've seen, it is no where near the majority that cause this trouble, just an incredibly vocal and vexing minority. I tell this sort, if you're talking at people and not to them, they'll never hear your message.
|
I can't posit myself as a nutrition expert because I don't have the pedigree.
However, from what I see of the case, it wasn't any kind of decent diet PERIOD.
All I can offer is my own experiences. My son ate like a champ.
My daughter did too, but she got diarrhea at about 4 days old for two days. We supplemented mother's milk with infant formula. After a horrifying couple of days, my wife told me to go to Walgreen's for soy formula at 2 in the morning. The diarrhea cleared, then came back; we then switched to Neutramigen Lipil. It is an extremely expensive formula, and from the ingredients I don't believe any animal products were used. At this point, I want to stress the importance of being in communication with a Medical Doctor when things aren't quite right. We weren't working this situation in a vacuum; that would be extremely foolish.
So the Neutramigen Lipil did the trick. Daughter could handle mother's milk, just not the large protein molecules from cow milk that are in infant's formula. And it seems that soybased formula wasn't the right alternative for her.
So, unless human milk is a strict no-no for Vegans, and not considered "vegetarian," (which I think would be idiocy of the highest calibre), my daughter ended up doing a vegetarianesque diet for her first few months.
Mother's milk, especially for the first few days of life, has an integral effect on jumpstarting the baby's immune system.
I don't know where they got the idea that soymilk could be considered a decent replacement for mother's milk or infant's formula.
And I'm not a vegan in any way shape or form, though I get the feeling that avoiding egregious amounts of animal fats is a healthy way to live. I just don't think that these two peoples' behavior should be held up as shining examples of veganism.
*sigh* I really hate things like that. Vegan or non-vegan, it is the stupidity of the parents not to realize there was something wrong with their child, did they not go to a pediatrition? Could they not tell their baby was sick? Would that God had given me the ability to seek out parents like these before tragedy strikes so I could smack them upside the head and take their babies to safety until they get some brains, or training, or anything for heaven's sake!
I'm not a vegan (a world without eggs and pizza would be a sad, sad place), but as a vegetarian who's done a fair amount of food-related research, I agree with some of the above folks in saying that the vegan angle was not what was imporant here. They could have been vegan and a) breast-fed the baby, or b) found a vegan formula. It doesn't matter whether they fed him soy milk or hamburger - if you're not giving the baby what he needs and can process, he's going to starve.
Now, as to whether two idiots deserve to go to jail for life for not knowing how to feed a baby... that's an iffy question. If it's found that they were of otherwise perfectly sound mind (which I doubt) and just weren't feeding him, that's one thing, but if they were trying to feed him and were just INCREDIBLY STUPID... well, I can think of a lot more heinous crimes that are punished far less severely. And who's helped by locking them away? Is society worried that they're going to sneak into our houses and feed our newborns soy milk?
....but I'm getting way off-topic. What I meant to say was that veganism can be done correctly if you're educated, though it is very difficult, and childhood nutrition is a sticky issue. Before we chase after the vegan parents, though, I think we'd be better served going after all the parents who let their kids eat McDonalds and Hostess cupcakes for every meal....
-James
(P.S: Before one of the other Paizoites points this out - yes, I did recently accidentally turn myself bright yellow by ingesting too much carrot juice. Like, Simpsons-yellow. Recovery is currently slow but promising.)
|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
|
So, unless human milk is a strict no-no for Vegans, and not considered "vegetarian," (which I think would be idiocy of the highest calibre), my daughter ended up doing a vegetarianesque diet for her first few months.
My undergrad had a large vegan population, and there was always speculation regarding their ingestion of certain human produced...proteins...and whether that would be a violation of their beliefs.
*cough*
The only reason women were given such nice tah tahs was to feed babies. That's what they're for, and the first few weeks of nursing gives babies the antibodies they need to fight off infections.
I know plenty of healty happy vegans with healthy happy kids. I think the parents in this case just didn't know what they were doing. This is a very very sad story though, and a good warning to anybody too into their "lifestyle" to do right by those who depend on them, when really it isn't hard to adhere to the lifestyle and take care of people you love too if you just think about it and plan ahead.
I'm on the fifty-year plan moving toward veganism. I went from meat-eating machine to no-red-meat, to only chicken, to eat-fish-instead to now-I-only-eat-fish-on-occasion...next I'm going to work on cutting out fish entirely, but not until I leave the island (there's too much delicious fish here!!!).
I'm like an oxen-tiger. Stronger than most, more durable than any. I can incline press 250 pounds easy, fly-through-the-air with the greatest of ease, and fight off an army of ninjas with my trusty spear and sword, and I haven't eaten a shred of meat in three years now. I've grown only stronger and more healthy since giving up meat. I heal remarkably quickly, I barely need sleep, and many minor ailments I had since youth cleared up when I chucked the meat too (like psychosis and a need to drink the blood of human children...no actually I had my knee blown out by a sweep-kick when I was young and it gave me trouble ever since until about six months after I stopped eating meat).
I'm a thousand times healtier since I gave up the meat, my heart is textbook healthy (and that's impressive considering I weigh 260 pounds), and I'd love to get vegan-tastic but I'm slow going. I am much more interested in free-range eggs and free-range dairy right now. I don't like what our system does to animals, though that is only part of why I chose to change my lifestyle. Mostly it's cause I enjoy the qi power that courses through my veins now. I like being able to level buildings with a thought. Now if only I wasn't so lazy, I would just conquer the world...but alas.
That is all my personal experience, and stories vary from people to people.
My undergrad had a large vegan population, and there was always speculation regarding their ingestion of certain human produced...proteins...and whether that would be a violation of their beliefs.
*cough*
*chortles, can't keep it in and starts ROFL'ing*
Umm, yeah, back on topic...Ahem.
I like food, I like all kinds of food, I love to cook, I love to cook for friends even more. I understand, I know proper nutrition is vital and essential for people of all ages. While it's not for me (I like my red meat too much, rawr) I do realize that some people make a voluntary choice to be vegetarian/vegan. Again, not for me. However, both choices are viable AND healthy, if your diet is balanced. The human body requires certain vitamin, minerals, proteins, et cetera and if they don't get the requisite amounts from somewhere, the body suffers. Scurvy, rickles, pellagra, beriberi, night blindness, pernicious anemia - these are all debilitating diseases caused by vitamin deficiencies. All can be prevented by a balanced diet.
On the issue of the parents...that's just...un-freaking-believable. If your kid is not doing well (and I can't imagine he was), why, in all the name of the Holy and Unholy, would you not seek assistance? From somewhere? From somebody? What the hell...
Veganism can kill ya? I coulda told ya that!
Tell that to Dirk Gently, now that's a whole 'nother story...
See, he's not a vegan (note, I know the guy in real life), but he IS a vegetarian, and now he weighs 125 lbs, and has yellow skin.
Not cool.
Maybe Dirk's a were-lemon. Watch out or he might squirt you in the eye or tart up your stew when you're not looking.
I'm a vegan, but I'm sorry to say that veganism actually killed Rick Enbacher, a dear friend of mine.
He lost his balance during a rather heroic attempt to put a powder blue robin's egg back in its nest and found himself dangling off the sill of an oriel window on the side of my castle. All I had to lower to him was a cowhide belt. He shrinked from it and said, "My hands shall not touch the murdered flesh of my bovine brothers." I can still see it all as if in slow motion. He blinked softly and let go with a peaceful smile. A songstress appeared behind me and accompanied his descent with a haunting celtic melody. Tragically, the slow motion (all all those sentimental flashbacks of him at different stages of his life) caused his thirty foot fall to take a full sixty-two seconds. Because I had to run off to pee I wound up missing the cobblestone landing, but I was assured he was spared the indignity of a bounce. Each year I raise a frothy glass of tofu brandy in his good name.
I like meat but I'm not going to begrudge someone of a different diet choice than me. Heck, life's all about choices!
IMO, a 6 week old baby that weighs 3 1/2 pounds sounds like Failure to Thrive, unless of course he was a premi. Of course the news media won't tell us if that was an issue also or not, so everything is now pure speculation. Either way though, the parents should have known WELL before "moments before he died" that something was wrong and they should have been in contact with a pediatrician. Yet, it's speculation as to if they were or not because again, it's not the WHOLE story.
Rick Enbacher... Rickenbacker guitar? Anyone... naw? Neveremind.
As everyone knows my plight...
I echo that the news is very sad. There was gross neglect on their parts, period. Regardless of the lifestyle, there are PLENTY of "alternative" baby formulas out there made with soy (as a matter of fact, enfamil makes one!). I've got 2 kids (Blue's 14 months old!), and when I think of how thin a 3.5 pound child would have been (them's ribs you sick f***), and NOT taking the child to a DOCTOR makes me ill. Makes me ANGRY.
*sigh*
This is where people haven't learned how to take care of children. So much is lost on life when you don't know how to care for a child properly. Nine Hells, WTF was wrong with that couple? Apple juice BEFORE the child had finished developing the stomach for such things? There's a REASON we give them breast milk/formula BEFORE juices and other foods (heck, we were told that we couldn't give juice until about 9 months old by a DOCTOR for both of my children as they got plenty of those things from the foods they would eat & the formula they drank). Alternative lifestyle or not, this was a case of gross neglect, and let God have mercy on their everlasting souls.
/d