Greetings friends, countryman. Richard Pett.
I'm looking to consult the sages (that's ya'll) about a rules question from last night's game.
I have a mindflayer who has been happily eating brains in my campaign. As is common among those creeps, he has levitate up and running, though he wasn't using it actively. A clever little wizard (who later provided dessert) cast a web spell. Now the illithid made his save, easily, but nonetheless found himself entangled. It occurred to me that he could use levitate to get him out of the sticky mess, since he happened to be a particularly weak cuss.
Levitate allows you to move yourself, another creature, or an object up and down as you wish.
Ok, that's not that interesting. What's more interesting is this:
Target: You or one willing creature or one object (total weight up to 100 lb./level)
In order to leave a web, you need to make a strength check. For every 5 points over DC 10, you can move 5 feet. As a 7th level sorceror, the mind flayer can levitate up to 700 lbs, if I'm reading the spell correctly. I'm not sure how to work this one out (so I didn't even bother with it last night).
Can this spell even be used for this application? How would you "roll" to see how far up the levitate allowed you to move? Does this take away from the utility of Telekinesis?
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
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I do not see levitate as an application of strength. The caster level determines the total AMOUNT OF MASS you can affect, but it does not let you move lesser masses faster or shove things with them (as telekinesis does). Thus, you cannot use your levitate in place of a strength roll. The illithid would have to make his strength check as normal. The spell simply allows him to move up and down instead of forward and backward.
Perhaps it would be appropriate to replace the strength check with a charisma check when the mind flayer uses its levitate to escape the web. That is a tough one though.
I do not see levitate as an application of strength. The caster level determines the total AMOUNT OF MASS you can affect, but it does not let you move lesser masses faster or shove things with them (as telekinesis does). Thus, you cannot use your levitate in place of a strength roll. The illithid would have to make his strength check as normal. The spell simply allows him to move up and down instead of forward and backward.
This is my gut feeling about it too. He shouldn't be able to break free with this spell, but I'm not sure that the arguments outlined above are enough evidence to nail it down for me.
EDIT: I realized that I just didn't understand Fatespinner's idea. I think I do now though. The way to think about it is that he nullifies the mass of the 600-lb backpack that he might try to lift, so that it doesn't weigh much. Thus it's not a strength based thing at all. The webs around him may not weigh much, but they still have plenty of tensile strength which require breaking.
Cool! This makes sense to me!
Thanks all.
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Glad to help. ;)
I guess the best way to illustrate my point is with an example. Your illithid can levitate 700 lbs. of material. However, with his power level, a 10 lb. object moves at the same speed that a 600 lb. object does. Thus, it is not a matter of having 700 lbs. worth of telekinetic 'strength' but having the ability to affect 700 lbs. of matter. Sounds like you got my point, but I'm sorry for not being easier to understand. Hopefully this is easier to understand for everyone now.
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I agree with Fatespinner on this one. Levitate is not a substitute for strength. The argument for applying levitate in this manner is all tied up with Newton:
-- For every action there is an opposite and equal reaction --
The mind flayer can lift 700lbs of weight, which means 700lbs force must be exerted downward, against gravity, plus a very small force more than that to allow him to move upward (we could determine how much based upon mass carried and desired acceleration). Given this, it makes sense that a web holding a mind flayer might act as a weight and when the mind flayer levitated upward, he would apply his 700lbs+ force to the strands of webbing, which translate that force into the surrounding environment upon which they are attached (if they are inelastic, or they stretch if they are elastic), and either the webbing exceeds its tensile strength and snaps or the surfaces to which the webbing is attached do the same (which might be bad if one's limbs and ball joints had a tensile strength less than the webbing, but we will let that go for now). It all seems perfectly reasonable but for one thing: There is no Newton in D&D.
In the immortal words of Varsuvius, famed androgynous wizard in Rich Burlew's Order of the Stick online comic "I'm somewhat occupied telling the laws of physics to shut up and sit down!"
Its a strength check. Let it be. Don't dig too deeply or you will drive yourself insane.
As a 7th level sorceror, the mind flayer can levitate up to 700 lbs, if I'm reading the spell correctly. I'm not sure how to work this one out (so I didn't even bother with it last night).
I think Fatespinner is technically correct, but IMO it would be much more cinematic (for lack of a better word coming to my mind) to calculate the levitation's Strength using the encumbrance chart on page 162 of the PHB.
Using the chart, the levitation would have a Strength of 24, giving the mind flayer a +7 on his check to lift himself up through the web.
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I'd probably allow it to a player, because I think it's a reasonably creative idea, and because it matches the way that I think of levitation. In addition, Web and similar effects are arguably stronger than they should be at their levels, so I'm not especially worried about a limited nerf.
As to the STR equivalent, I'd treat that as a STR capable of lifting 1/2 of the max lift, then subtract the weight of the character and his gear. (Only 1/2 because you have less ability to selectively break individual strands than a character whose strength is more selective in application.)
I agree that the RAW don't support this, but I'm not especially worried about arguments only from the text of the rules. DM interpretations for verisimilitude are normal.
As to whether a DM should spring this on unsuspecting players first, I'm a bit more skeptical. Bend the rules if it's cool and doesn't hurt the players or risk a broken game. Bend the rules if it follows the way that the players have already bent the rules. But don't bend the rules to surprise the players. Think of it as a sort of D&D Rule of Lenity. (Sebastian will understand the reference even if nobody else does. 8-)
I'd probably allow it to a player, because I think it's a reasonably creative idea, and because it matches the way that I think of levitation. In addition, Web and similar effects are arguably stronger than they should be at their levels, so I'm not especially worried about a limited nerf.
I'd say the problem is that they will start using levitate to try and break the floor and all sorts of other mischief. Levitate is already a pretty good spell for its level. Its not so much that you are nerfing web as making levitate more powerful.
Web = 2nd level spell
Levitate = 2nd level spell
If he can legitimately anchor the web against opposing surfaces where he cast it, I'd say make the flayer do his strength check to move through the web, just like anyone else. Of course, he might have a fire spell handy--with his energy resist, he could possibly even fireball himself (don't remember what he has on his spell list right now) to get free. But if not, and he's already snacked on at least one brain, I think it's probably time to let the players win the battle. They're going to have to spring for a resurrection due to the missing body part, or someone's going to have to roll a new character, so you've already been evil enough with Zyrxog. You know you have, Eltanin!
I'm afraid I have to disagree a bit here. While the levitate spell itself could probably do a pretty good job of breaking the webs, the real question is "can the mind flayer stand the strain?" Physical strength represents not just a character's muscular power, it also represents his ability to stand the strain of using that power. According to this interpretation, it would still be the illithid's own strength that determined whether or not he could escape the web.
In other words, the illithid could most likely move a rock entwined with webs quite easily. But when he tries to move himself the webs entrapping his limbs continue to bind painfully and he must use his own strength score to overcome them. To unleash his full levitational strength on himself in such a situation would undoubtedly cause him far too much pain. Imagine roping yourself to a tree and allowing a small car to pull you free: the car could certainly do the job, but the strain on you would be too much to bear.
With that said, I'm afraid I must admit that if it were the players trying to get free rather than a monster, and if they'd been having a tough time until now and were facing a possible TPK, I'd probably let this idea work. I tend to favor underdog players, though.
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I'd say the problem is that they will start using levitate to try and break the floor and all sorts of other mischief. Levitate is already a pretty good spell for its level. Its not so much that you are nerfing web as making levitate more powerful.
Yes, this is my feeling as well and one reason I strongly advocate avoiding physics-type reasoning. Clever players can use this to their advantage if you are not careful. Since levitate will provide a downward force equal to the casters upward force, it can be used to shatter bridges and weapons, pin opponents, set off traps and do all other sorts of nastiness.
If my DM was keen on physics for levitate, I can't wait until he sees me use fly. My scrawny wizard (60kg) can achive an average velocity of 6 meters per second while flying, with a peak velocity of 12m/s. At this body weight, he will run into stationary people with enough kenetic energy that they will believe they had fallen from a 7.3m height, assuming an inelastic collision. It would be MUCH uglier if he was diving at peak velocity (equivelent to a drop of about 29m (95ft) or 9d6 damage just for colliding with him). With telekenesis, the spell is obviously wrong, for a 9th level caster (the minimum required to cast the spell) using the Violent Thrust option, he will hurl an enemy up to 102kg against a firm surface 45ft away and it would feel as if the target had fallen more than 17m (55ft) = 5d6 damage, not the 1d6 damage listed in the spell.
Don't do physics will D&D. It doesn't work. It's a game, not a simulation.
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In other words, the illithid could most likely move a rock entwined with webs quite easily. But when he tries to move himself the webs entrapping his limbs continue to bind painfully and he must use his own strength score to overcome them. To unleash his full levitational strength on himself in such a situation would undoubtedly cause him far too much pain. Imagine roping yourself to a tree and allowing a small car to pull you free: the car could certainly do the job, but the strain on you would be too much to bear.
Exactly. The tensile strength of the webs or the material they are attached to may be greater than the tensile strength of the caster's joints. Levitate all you want, but that tearing sound you hear may not be the web, it may be your innards coming undone.
I personally would interpret the effects of levitate not as "lifting" 700lbs, but rather that up to 700 total pounds becomes, for all intents and purposes of upward mobility, weightless.
A very poor example of my line of thinking on this would be as such:
You could enchant a semi truck to be as light as a feather, and thus easily lifted (levitated). However, if you bury that semi truck halfway in cement, the truck would still be restrained by the cement, regardless of how weightless it is. And thus, it would be impossible to move without first ripping it from the ground.
So, I would imagine that the mindflayer would have to make his strength check to first tear himself free of the web before he would be able to freely levitate his own weightless mass, just as if his feet were nailed to the floor.
Good points by all, particularly that . Woe to the DM who tries to actually incorporate this logical science into an arbitrary and often unreasonable game!
Levitate provides an object with balloon like bouyancy, in my mind, and thus the target can float. But, as the previous poster mentioend, restrain a balloon with even a little force, and it can't go anywhere. That's about the most complex physics D&D needs.
So, in the end, I'd have to say that I wouldn't allow it to work. And, since it's an interpretation of the rules and consistency is important, I'd have to rule the same way for players and NPCs. But, it is creative and a good way to counter an overly-powerful 2nd level spell. However, this may then lead to questions about levitating out of grapples and other such things. If you can beat the Strength check/grapple check, sure; otherwise, no.
While I hate to crush player creativity, for consistency and simplicity, I'd have to universally rule "no."
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It is far more insidious for the mind-flayer to levitate himself & the web, and effectivly ignore it. Not as cool as tearing himself free, but still cinematic. Now breaking the web free might be back where we started from, but if it was possible, with some secondary magic, he could even use it to grapple the caster...
Hmmm... interesting points. Now, if a caster used telekinesis, I could see him not only breaking himself free, but manipulating the webing to try and lash out and grapple foes, perhaps even pulling them back in. That would be insidious and twistedly awesome. Course, he'd have to succeed on Strength checks using the telekinesis spell to do it, but at sufficiently high level, it shouldn't really be a problem.