A friend of mine (same one discussed in the point buy thread) has the intention of playing an elven wizard into the air elemental savant PrC (Complete Arcane) at some point in the future (he refers to the build as an Aeromancer). Now, I really like how they took the idea of an elementally themed caster and developed it, but there's just something odd about it. Lets use his specific case as an example.
At low levels, before entering the PrC, he's likely to take spells like shocking grasp, seeking ray (PHBII), and lightning bolt for thematic reasons. However, he also has to take the Energy Substitution metamagic feat (also in Complete Arcane). This allows him to change the elemental damage of a spell into some other type (such as cold to fire, electricity to acid, etc.). When he actually gains access to the PrC, a feature automatically changes all elemental damage into the appropriate type (electricity, in this case). Now, we get to the cooky part.
The class feature negates the purpose and reason for taking Energy Substitution. Now, at first glace, you could use Energy Substitution to reserve some diversity and allow you to cast spells with a wider array of damage types, but you wouldn't have to take that extra measure if you didn't take the PrC in the first place. But, not even that is really viable, since you have to choose a type of element when you choose Energy Substitution, meaning that you can only convert energy spells into that chosen element. Since this is the same as what you choose when you became an elemental savant, this feat becomes totally redundant.
Also, you have to know a selection of three spells that deal the energy damage associated with your chosen element before you gain access to the PrC. Because of this, and the mere fact that you take the class indicates you like the themed idea, almost all of your spells will probably deal the energy damage selected when gaining Energy Substitution, making the feat useless before you gain access to the PrC, as well.
Now, I don't have a problem with PrCs sometimes requiring sub-optimal feat choices from PCs (such as Lightning Reflexes, Endurance, Acrobatic, etc.), especially when the PrC is very powerful (not sure if that's the case here, but it's irrelevant). However, this requires the burning of a feat slot on something that is completely, totally, 100% useless once you gain access to the PrC and largely before then, as well.
Do you think that the elemental savant is power enough to require such a sacrifice? Personally, I don't, and would prefer to change the entry requirement, perhaps to Spell Focus (evocation) or something, even Skill Focus (spellcraft). I just thought I'd post here first, however.
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You could always use the feat retraining option from the PHB2 to 'reclaim' the feat after the fact. The rationalization of this could be that, through the PrC, the character has basically refined the feat into something greater and can now turn his training towards something else. Basically, the character would need to take the feat before he got the PrC to show his predilection and devotion to the element in question but after he had attained the elemental perfection he is seeking, he is capable of developing new abilities in its stead.
The elemental savant becomes an elemental at 10th level, and all that entails. I personally think a burned feat slot is worth it if thats the theme you're going for.
I think that all the bonuses that the elemental savant obtains as it progresses - i.e. becoming immune to crits and sleep etc, are totally worth blowing a feat. Consider that the spellcaster only loses one spellcasting level for all of that gain ...
If you tried to do achieve the same level of immunities by expending feats you would not get anywhere close to what the PrC gives you in terms of freebies.
That being said, perhaps the suggestion of retraining would be a 'nice' thing to do. Perhaps a free Spell Focus (evocation) to replace the now defunct Energy Substitution would be appreciated. Or something else, say access to elemental familiars without taking Improved Familiar ...
But if it's still a requirement, wouldn't retraining and losing the feat prevent the acquisition of any more savant levels? I suppose once you advanced to 10th level in the PrC it wouldn't matter. Or, would the ruling be that once you've met the requirements to get in, you can keep taking levels regardless, unless it's of something obviously variable, such as alignment, which has precedent of blocking progression if it changes in certain cases?
…perhaps the suggestion of retraining would be a 'nice' thing to do…
…would the ruling be that once you've met the requirements to get in, you can keep taking levels regardless…
Well…I’m still trying to truly master 2e, so I’m a bit out of my element here, and maybe I’m way off base, but I think I’m having my first real disagreement with Fatespinner …
It would seem that this is a very specialized endeavor, one requiring much higher degrees of skill, education, training, and dedication that normal for a similar, but “lesser,” type.
Example analogy. Most “professionals” must maintain their educations so they can keep up with what’s current and not be operating from outmoded, passé, or just plain wrong info. Those in the medical field most specifically (though lawyers, computer programmers, etc, do too) must take a certain number of Continuing Professional Education hours. For doctors it’s called “CME”, or Continuing Medical Education. Sebastian could give you the equivalent for the legal profession. These education hours are necessary to maintain one’s certification for practice. This may be a little too “realistic” for the game, but the point is that somebody who is hyper-specialized has a lot of work just maintaining their qualifications to be messing around with “retraining”.
This is why I disagree on the basic thought about “reclaiming” the feat. It comes across like the characters is as concerned for the focus of his profession as he would be if he’d been saving aluminum cans. Effectively losing part of his education, or retroactively dropping a core curriculum class, leaves the character without the minimum requirements to qualify, and thus gets no certification or “licensing” to practice. In short, he’d cease to become that class, at least at that level of specialization. It might be analogous to a brain surgeon getting demoted to a general practitioner because the Board of Medical Examiners find out that he 1) never took that class, 2) no longer claims to have had a specific course in training for it, or 3) cannot prove that he took and passed that course.
If the skill is mandatory for the class, it’s mandatory and no amount of finagling can get around it, unless you want to completely rewrite it yourself. That’s certainly do-able, you are after all the DM, but you risk a lot of “balance” loss in the process. I have to go with Dirk….
I personally think a burned feat slot is worth it ...
The more I think about it, the more I see how loosing the feat isn't such a bad thing. As an air elemental savant, at 10th level in the PrC he gains 100ft. fly speed (perfect maneuverability), immunity to sleep, critical hits, sneak attacks, poison, and disease. Oh, and immunity to electricity damage by that point, as well. Am I missing anything? Seems like a nice suite of abilities to me, particularly for a caster, since most of those things are hit point related or based on pesky Fortitude saves (and who couldn't use a 100ft. fly speed with perfect maneuverability?)
Very well, the RAW stands! Thanks, all.
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The more I think about it, the more I see how loosing the feat isn't such a bad thing.
Yeah, I've played a savant before... it's DEFINITELY worth losing the feat slot. I thought you were just looking for a rational way to 'refund' the useless feat after the fact. My apologies for not reading your inquiry more fully.
A friend of mine (same one discussed in the point buy thread) has the intention of playing an elven wizard into the air elemental savant PrC (Complete Arcane) at some point in the future (he refers to the build as an Aeromancer). Now, I really like how they took the idea of an elementally themed caster and developed it, but there's just something odd about it. Lets use his specific case as an example.
At low levels, before entering the PrC, he's likely to take spells like shocking grasp, seeking ray (PHBII), and lightning bolt for thematic reasons. However, he also has to take the Energy Substitution metamagic feat (also in Complete Arcane). This allows him to change the elemental damage of a spell into some other type (such as cold to fire, electricity to acid, etc.). When he actually gains access to the PrC, a feature automatically changes all elemental damage into the appropriate type (electricity, in this case). Now, we get to the cooky part.
The class feature negates the purpose and reason for taking Energy Substitution. Now, at first glace, you could use Energy Substitution to reserve some diversity and allow you to cast spells with a wider array of damage types, but you wouldn't have to take that extra measure if you didn't take the PrC in the first place. But, not even that is really viable, since you have to choose a type of element when you choose Energy Substitution, meaning that you can only convert energy spells into that chosen element. Since this is the same as what you choose when you became an elemental savant, this feat becomes totally redundant.
Also, you have to know a selection of three spells that deal the energy damage associated with your chosen element before you gain access to the PrC. Because of this, and the mere fact that you take the class indicates you like the themed idea, almost all of your spells will probably deal the energy damage selected when gaining Energy Substitution, making the feat useless before you gain access to the PrC, as well.
As a wizard, learning new spells is as easy as spending the time and money to do so. By the time the wizard is ready to take the PrC (wizard 5/elemental savant 1), they should have lesser electric orb, shocking grasp, and lightning bolt. They should also have burning hands, Melf's acid arrow, scorching ray, and/or other spells that can be changed to electricity versions with Energy Substitution.
The feat that you should choose immediately on becoming an air/electricity elemental savant is Born of the Three Thunders. This broadens your energy damage capabilities (important later on), adds stun and trip potential (tactically priceless), and allows the wizard to still gain a benefit from having chosen Energy Substitution (Electricity). For example, the wizard 1/elemental savant 1 above casts fireball (electricity) as a Born of the Three Thunders spell; all creatures in the area of effect take 3d6 electricity damage and 3d6 sonic damage with a Ref save for half damage; they also must make a Fort save or be stunned one round and a second Ref safe to avoid being knocked prone. All this with no change in the spell's level.
Good point! I'll have to point this out to him.