I'm posting this here since there seems to be a lot of GH fans on these boards.
So I got an odd question. Lots of people say that Greyhawk is very generic fantasy, and it seems a lot like other settings. Wither that is true or not, or a good or bad thing is not the point of this post. For the sake of this thread we will consider it true and a neutral thing.
Taking that as the viewpoint, what would you do to push the setting into feeling more unique and unlike other settings, while still being GH? What elements would you build upon and what would you play down.
Taking that as the viewpoint, what would you do to push the setting into feeling more unique and unlike other settings, while still being GH? What elements would you build upon and what would you play down.
In getting to know Greyhawk for the campaign I'm running for it, the big thing that strikes me about it is how war torn it is. It's pretty bleak. Just about every nation listing describes it as either trodden down by war, a bustling military nation, or on the verge of breaking because of the pressures of war. The war against Iuz is HUGE in Greyhawk. It is THE central defining conflict of the setting.
As a result, the game plays less like a cozy fantasy romp through interesting nations and cultures and is much more gritty. It's like france during World War II. There might be pretty scenery, but underlying it all there's some pretty bleak, horrible stuff going on. There's a lot of tension, a lot of grim military combat. Sacked castles, smoke on the horizon, an old husband and wife holding each other and crying by the side of the road, starving bands of mercenaries force marching to escape a howling band of hobgoblins on their trail.
That's the stuff that makes Greyhawk stand out to me. That's the stuff I play up when I run it.
I was reading the LGG last night and the post-WWII Europe feel got me as well, Grim. Geoff is pretty much...well, the phrase I'd use would be hit by the censorship filters. Other nearby countries are in the same boat, with varying degrees of less/worse.
I would play up the key features in each area - there is a lot about each country, even in the snippets in the LGG that would go a long way if you played up their aspects.
Also, play up the distinctions between the Human sub-races. In the Flanaess, the differences between a Baklunish Human and a Suel Human can be almost as great as the differences between a Hill Dwarf and a Duergar.
Track down copies of Dragon #315 and 319. These have the regional feats for the setting that can add some flavor to the different nations and races.
much more gritty....underlying it all there's some pretty bleak, horrible stuff going on...lot of tension, a lot of grim military combat
Superb description. Think of taking the atmosphere from Diary of Anne Frank and trasposing it to a whole fantasy world. Very depressing, but chock full of whup-a$$!
You can make huge deals out of racial tensions, even imagined ones. Everybody hates or is terribly suspicious of other races. The more different they are the more suspicion/hate there is. Human/Elf relations can be ok in some places. Human/Dwarf less so. Got a 1/2-Orc in the group??? Might as well be an NBA team at a Klan rally!
Also, $$$$$. With war, costs are always high. There's not enough cash to go around, so add in height of Depression Era poverty everywhere, and the PC's are either no better off than anyone else (scrimping every CP to afford a beer, let alone a sword) or they're terribly envied by most of the populace. Either state can make their either very popular or very unpopular with towns-folk. Heck, you can do regular side-plot repeats of being run out on a rail by bigoted, jealous farmers until the party gets the idea how they fit in.
Try them cookies on for size...see how it works.
It's a helluva setting for playing up socio-political themes.
Totally agree. We play our campaign mainly in the Sheldomar Valley region and all it needs is for the DM to whisper "Knights of the Watch" to have our Baklunish and Half-Orc PC's getting uber paranoid!
The landscape of our sessions are littered with burnt out farmsteads, the roads and towns filled with refugees and our "heroes" face human natures that are far more monstrous than any dragon or ogre.
Are these suggested augmentations to get Greyhawk to feel more "unique," or is this how the setting is as-written? Being set as the "core" backdrop for modern D&D, I never would have thought that it would have such a strong theme, nor have I heard anything about that theme before. Is that just "watering down" that has occured to make it more neutral so that it can be the core setting?
Are these suggested augmentations to get Greyhawk to feel more "unique," or is this how the setting is as-written? Being set as the "core" backdrop for modern D&D, I never would have thought that it would have such a strong theme, nor have I heard anything about that theme before. Is that just "watering down" that has occured to make it more neutral so that it can be the core setting?
The Greyhawk updates in the late '90s during 2nd Edition basically sold the game as being a gritty, old school alternative to things like the Forgotten Realms and such. It seems like in 3rd Edition they just took some of the set dressing of the setting (core deities and a few place names here and there) to give a default, vanilla version of the world. Though Eberron uses intrigue as one of its claims to fame, Greyhawk really sets the bar for political upheaval, in my opinion. Every nation has a bone to pick with one of its neighbors, regardless of alignment.
Wars have been a part of the GH history, as this world came into being as a backdrop for wargames, AFAIK. If you can, have a look into real old dragons (those in the double digits), and you will get army strenghts and tactical developments in several articles in there. So, the war theme is a continuation of old backgrounds.
Depending on what you accept as canon, (many people just don´t accept the From the Ashes box), the bleak outlook of the world in general is a fitting view, with Iuz dreading in the north, the remainders of the Great Kingdom, which pretty much collapsed on itself, still lying in agony, in the southeast and the looming menace of the scarlet brotherhood throughout the south. Add the ever-present threat of more humanoid and giant incursions in the west, along the hellfurnaces, and you get a pretty dreary world.
(as an aside, I don´t like comparisons to Europe after WWII, and please don´t compare anything to the Holocaust - the enormous monstrosity of these atrocities cannot be compared to anything real or imagined. Sorry, but that is a very touchy subject to me, and I think to many others, too.)
Stefan
Are these suggested augmentations to get Greyhawk to feel more "unique," or is this how the setting is as-written? Being set as the "core" backdrop for modern D&D, I never would have thought that it would have such a strong theme, nor have I heard anything about that theme before. Is that just "watering down" that has occured to make it more neutral so that it can be the core setting?
Naw, that's pretty much how it's written in the Greyhawk Gazateer. You are free to downplay it, but it's right there--nothing added. It reminds me of Lord of the Rings, in that the battle with Mordor is a huge part of everyone's lives, but you could still imagine people off adventuring in the world, staying far back from the battlefront, so that things don't feel quite as oppressive. I'd say most of what could be called "watering down" of the setting comes from the tremendous amounts of stuff that's been ported there--basically the contents of every Races book, Monster Manual, Variant Magic book, etc. Not that I think that makes for a bad setting, it just means Greyhawk has had to find a place for a lot of new material--more so than any other setting out there nowadays.
(as an aside, I don´t like comparisons to Europe after WWII, and please don´t compare anything to the Holocaust - the enormous monstrosity of these atrocities cannot be compared to anything real or imagined. Sorry, but that is a very touchy subject to me, and I think to many others, too.)
First of all, sorry if this caused you any discomfort. I really wasn't meaning to offend anyone. On the other hand, by evoking World War II, I wasn't really touching on events like the Halocaust, or even the post-war environment. World War II is a big subject with a lot of aspects to it, and I'd argue a pretty substantive chunk of the entire history of the modern world. It's been the source of novels, movies and TV shows too numerous to mention. I say this not to demean the intensity of your feelings or to be in any way insensitive--but just to appologize in advance that I probably will compare things to that particular war again in the future, because it's such a important and evokative period that trying to go without mentioning it would take away a big chunk of my vernacular. I think there's times when making reasoned allusions to it can add to a conversation--but I will try to do so more carefully now that I realise what strong emotions are on the line.
What Grimcleaver said. I feel the same way - there are certain turns of phrases to use when you're trying to evoke the mood of a setting that are handier than others, and in no way would I try to belittle, demean, or lessen the experiences of those that lived through it, directly or indirectly.
(Wow, that was a long sentence...)
Racial Tensions.
True its a touchy subject for many groups. Most DM's would like to keep the subject of racial differences as simple as "Orc's! Kill 'Em!".
But to me, one of the great things about Greyhawk is that Elves, Dwarves, Gnomes, Halflings, they all are just window dressing to the political and racial struggles of the Humans of Greyhawk. With six different races of humans if the Greyhawk campaign you can find all sorts of adventures by simply playing up the cultural misunderstandings. Even amongst members of the same race there can be whole storylines and campaigns focusing on thier struggles to prove whose philosophies and religions are right.
Take my own campaign, set in the southern reaches of the Principality of Ulek. This whole region not long ago was under the influences of the Empire of Keoland. The majority of the population in the south is humans, many left behind by the receding(sp?) of the borders. Now think Russia of Today... what if some of those humans felt a nostalgia for "the good old days" when things were orderly and people were safe in the arms of the Empire. What if a group of them started to actively work towards a reunification of the two countries, or at least a cesession of the southern dukedoms? The dwarves of the country take a secondary role to the factions of humans trying to decide where thier loyalties lie. Politics, back alley dealings, misdirection and power struggles all erupt with your adventuring group caught in the middle. As a DM you can make this all seem unique to Greyhawk by stressing the racial differences as Flan, Suel, Baklunish, and Oeridian citizens speak out depending on thier backgrounds. The DM then dumps his group into this wonderful example of Greyhawk races and lets then take the story over, deciding where they will go and who they will speak to and side with. Those decisions lead to different flavored adventures depending on the race. It can all work to make a large fact stand out in the players minds:
This wouldn't be the same if we were somewhere besides Greyhawk.
just my two coppers,
-Roth
"Those who cannot remember the past are doomed to repeat it."
George Santayana (1863-1952) Philosopher, Critic, Novelist, Life of Reason, Reason in Common Sense, Scribner’s, 1905
Useing WWII as a reference or comparative statement is essential to passing our history -- our mistakes -- to the next generation so they, hopefully, do not make the same ones. Those who insist that such references or comparisons not be made, however well-meaning, are supressing our memories and staunching the growth of humanity away from warfare. Not talking about it is the surest way of getting ourselves into circumstances where we will repeat.
Do your thing, Grimcleaver. You did no wrong. The overly-sensitive must "grow up and get over it."
Did I step on toes? Not to seem insensitive myself, but...tough noogies.
Ahem.
I did not want to keep anyone from talking about WWII, far from it. I would subscribe to this "Those who forget..." point of view anytime. The scars of the war are visible in Europe to this day, and will remain, so nobody forgets - to ensure that we will not be damned to repeat our bloody history.
I personally dislike comparisons to this war, to make this clear. If you want disregard this, you are of course free to do so.
And I just wanted to warn away anybody from any comparisons to the Holocaust, as any comparisons lead IMHO to a diminishment (sp?) of these atrocities - they simply don´t compare to anything. It is a very touchy subject, and I wanted to point that out.
That said, I´m not terribly offended by the prior posts, but just wanted to voice my feelings and dislikes on that topic.
I would like to declare this off-topic thread jack closed now. If we want to discuss this, it should be in the off topic area.
Stefan