Has anyone ever played a Gestalt Character or ran a Gestalt game? (for those who don’t know a gestalt character are characters that have two classes at the same time, and you take the best hit die, skill points ,BAB, etc. so a fighter/wizard would have full spell casting abilities the best BAB, full access to fighter and wizard bonus feats, d10 hit die and a wizards skill points) How was playing a gestalt character? Did the game get out of hand or was it to complicated? Was it fun or did it turn out to be obnoxious? What do people think in general of this kind of character/game?
Fizz
We did, yeah. The DM upped the ante on us. Gestalt and Prestige Classes as classes at the same time. We used the (infamous) Grimcleaver System and it went smooth as silk. It was a great game. The character that resulted a half-orc Cleric(of Law)/Warmind named Dunrok the Tiger of Vermallen is perhaps one of my favorite characters ever.
The other character was a Monk/Assassin. Basically the game was a rebellion against my character's nation, a gnomish bureaucrat-technocracy gone amok.
In general I love this kind of game, as it takes the previous combinations of race and class and creates tons more diversity by combining them. The resulting hybrids are more powerful, but a fun variant on that is to have a certain amount of abilities where the character picks the higher of the two, and a certain amount where he has to take the lower. Were I to run a game like this, I would probably also template a few of the hybrids so they could have cooler names than Fighter/Wizard just for more flavor.
Between the two I would say I enjoy the Prestige Character option much more--since there's SO many of them already and most of them are really just more colorful than any Gestalt character could be. Plus they're already such a big part of the game, there's already a place for them in most settings.
Has anyone ever played a Gestalt Character or ran a Gestalt game? (for those who don’t know a gestalt character are characters that have two classes at the same time, and you take the best hit die, skill points ,BAB, etc. so a fighter/wizard would have full spell casting abilities the best BAB, full access to fighter and wizard bonus feats, d10 hit die and a wizards skill points) How was playing a gestalt character? Did the game get out of hand or was it to complicated? Was it fun or did it turn out to be obnoxious? What do people think in general of this kind of character/game?
Fizz
My players in my current AoW campaign are all gestalt. It works pretty well. It blurs the lines between character roles and it helps a lot for skill points and saves. It also makes it so a player can follow a charcter concept and not fall behind the group with multi-classing to achieve that concept. Overall I like. It can make some encounters a cake walk if your not prepared correctly.
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I run a d20 Modern/D&D gestalt game (one class from Modern, one class from D&D) set in near-future Earth. So far, it's worked out very well. Granted, we've only had three sessions, but the PCs are hardy, resilient, and flexible. The only time gestalt is complicated is at character creation and leveling up. Otherwise, just like normal characters the math is already done for you and you can just play the game.
So yeah, put me down as someone who loves the system and has nothing but positive experiences with it. :)
So you take the best from two classes and races? This I have to try. Can you do it with more than two classes, for instance two combinations of two classes?
So you take the best from two classes and races? This I have to try. Can you do it with more than two classes, for instance two combinations of two classes?
One race only and (officially) two class progressions. Some people have mentioned experimenting with three class progressions, though.
Complete rules can be found in Unearthed Arcana or here.
You can come up with some nasty combinations (Rogue/Warlock with Hideous Blow and Beshadowed Blast invocations for instance), so watch out!
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In my group's AoW campaign we are using gestalt characters. Its really a fun system to use - lots of possibilities I have a half-orc fighter/cleric of Kord wielding a greatsword and butchering the bad guys. We also have a human fighter/favored soul of St. Cuthbert who is kick ass at defense and healing, a half-orc fighter/rogue who scouts and sneak attacks with his orc double-ax, and a human druid/sorcerer who has mondo spellcasting power.
Rogue/Warlock sounds fun. So does Ninja/Rogue, Warlock/Druid and Warlock/Monk. I am going to try this.
I've played in Gestalt games twice, both times with positive experiences. We did it when we only had two players and the DM, with the DM too lazy to scale a premade adventure for fewer players. The power balanced out nicely. Currently I'm playing a Soulknife/Warblade, and it feels like I'm playing FF7: Advent Children. He is really capable of some cinematic shtuff.
My two favorite (and most effective) gestalt characters were a human Swashbuckler/Warlock (Hideous Blow rocks) and an elven Ranger/Cleric. Let me tell you, being a ranger with the Travel domain is SWEEEEEET.
That is almost the exact gestalts in my group. The swashbuckler/warlock used hideous blow with spring attack. And the ranger/cleric has undead as a favored enemy and quicken turning so he can still be a front line fighter while turning undead. The other two in my group are a Hexblade/rogue (a d10 hit points and a fighter BaB with sneak attack is pretty nasty as well) and a wizard/rogue (although a variant without sneak attack).
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That is almost the exact gestalts in my group.
Mine were both played in solo campaigns, with no other party members to count on, so I had to make them pretty versatile. The Swash/War was a hitman-style character, Neutral Evil, who worked for the church of Bane in Forgotten Realms. The Rang/Clr was an elven myth-seeker who journeyed into ancient forests and ruins by himself in search of elven artifacts. He could do EVERYTHING that was needed. Front-line combat was the only thing he even remotely had trouble with. Most of the time, he'd have his animal companion up front while he rained arrows on stuff. Finding traps was taken care of with a 2nd level cleric spell. Healing was covered. Tracking and Survival skills were covered. It was a lot of fun to play him. Because it was a solo campaign, the DM also awarded me a feat EVERY LEVEL to keep the character's power level relatively high.
Warlock/Monk.
An excellent, excellent idea, considering flurry of blows and eldritch blast are combinable (sp?). However, only a Lawful Evil character can exploit this option (monks have to be Lawful, warlocks have to be Evil or Chaotic).
I'm planning on running a solo game for a friend this summer, using gestalt rules, and he's thinking of being a warlock/binder (and making up some custom vestiges). Just to check, when he gets a hideous blow critical with the scythe he is planning on using, only the scythe gets multiplied, since the blast is considered "bonus dice damage," correct?
Warlock/Monk.An excellent, excellent idea, considering flurry of blows and eldritch blast are combinable (sp?).
I'm pretty sure they're not combinable. Eldritch blast is only usable once per round as a standard action. However, such evocations as leaps and bounds, and baleful utterance can be pretty sickening with a monk/warlock.
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Just to check, when he gets a hideous blow critical with the scythe he is planning on using, only the scythe gets multiplied, since the blast is considered "bonus dice damage," correct?
Hmm... I'm not sure about that, because the rules for combining touch spells with unarmed strikes aren't terribly clear. The DM who ran my Swash/War did it such that ALL of it was doubled. It was a solo campaign anyway, so erring in my favor allowed the game to continue, but now you've got me wondering what the correct answer is here.
Just to check, when he gets a hideous blow critical with the scythe he is planning on using, only the scythe gets multiplied, since the blast is considered "bonus dice damage," correct?
Hm. Actually, I'm not sure on this one. I think it IS multiplied, but only at x2 (since you can get critical hits off of any spell or spell-like ability that requires an attack roll). So assuming a 10 strength at 1st level, a critical hit with a scythe with hideous blow would deal 8d4+2d6 damage.
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I'm pretty sure they're not combinable. Eldritch blast is only usable once per round as a standard action. However, such evocations as leaps and bounds, and baleful utterance can be pretty sickening with a monk/warlock.Warlock/Monk.An excellent, excellent idea, considering flurry of blows and eldritch blast are combinable (sp?).
I think you're right there Thanis. From the way I've been reading it, Hideous Blow can only be combined with a single melee attack per round. The damage might apply to the first hit in the flurry, but after that I'd say no way.
I think you're right there Thanis. From the way I've been reading it, Hideous Blow can only be combined with a single melee attack per round. The damage might apply to the first hit in the flurry, but after that I'd say no way.I'm pretty sure they're not combinable. Eldritch blast is only usable once per round as a standard action. However, such evocations as leaps and bounds, and baleful utterance can be pretty sickening with a monk/warlock.Warlock/Monk.An excellent, excellent idea, considering flurry of blows and eldritch blast are combinable (sp?).
Yeah I belive Eldrich Blast is a standard action so only one per round. Now you could take Quicken Spell-like ability to get a second Eldrich Blast in a round but that's only once per day (I think).
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I think you're right there Thanis. From the way I've been reading it, Hideous Blow can only be combined with a single melee attack per round. The damage might apply to the first hit in the flurry, but after that I'd say no way.
Actually, you wouldn't be able to apply it to a flurry at all since hideous blow is, for all intents and purposes, a touch spell (spell-like ability, anyway) being channeled through a weapon. Just as a wizard cannot cast a touch spell, deliver it, and take another melee attack (if he has a +6 or higher BAB), neither can a warlock combine hideous blow with a full-attack action or flurry of blows unless he has Quicken Spell-like Ability which actually awards 3 uses per day if I recall correctly.
Good point regarding the monk. However, one doesn't need hideous blow to utilize the monk/warlock combo. Any ranged touch spell can be made into a melee touch spell (i.e., poking someone with your finger and then casting scorching ray), and can be combined with an unarmed attack, including a monk's unarmed strike. So, while flurry of blows can't be used, the monklock (or perhaps waronk?) can still pull off one attack per round with his unarmed strike carrying the force of the eldritch blast as well without taking hideous blow. Considering the small number of invocations gained by a warlock, this is a real boon.
Also, if the hideous blow damage can be multiplied on a critical, using the above-mentioned scythe-wielder as an example, would the character not get the normal x4 for the scythe, including Strength bonuses and such, and then get the additional x2 eldritch blast damage on top of this? The player has already rolled his stats and has a 17 in Strength, getting bumped to an 18 when capable, and plans on taking Power Attack as well. That seems way too strong to allow all of that damage to get multiplied (then again, as Fatespinner said, perhaps it's a good idea for a solo game).
I still think that the eldritch blast becomes "bonus dice damage" in the same manner as a sneak attack's damage, and thus is not multiplied.
Another question (we're drifting off topic, I know): say you ruled that the blast would indeed be multiplied. Then say you channel it through a scimitar. Does the added damage get multiplied whenever the scimitar crits, or does it require a natural 20 as typical for rays, even when the scimitar itself scores a critical hit on its own?
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Good point regarding the monk. However, one doesn't need hideous blow to utilize the monk/warlock combo. Any ranged touch spell can be made into a melee touch spell (i.e., poking someone with your finger and then casting scorching ray), and can be combined with an unarmed attack, including a monk's unarmed strike.
I have to disagree with you here. It is specifically mentioned that touch spells may be used in conjunction with unarmed strikes but the attack must hit the TRUE AC (instead of just touch AC) in order to take effect. A ranged touch spell, in my opinion, should not be allowed to combine with a melee attack. As always, your mileage may vary.
Also, if the hideous blow damage can be multiplied on a critical, using the above-mentioned scythe-wielder as an example, would the character not get the normal x4 for the scythe, including Strength bonuses and such, and then get the additional x2 eldritch blast damage on top of this? The player has already rolled his stats and has a 17 in Strength, getting bumped to an 18 when capable, and plans on taking Power Attack as well. That seems way too strong to allow all of that damage to get multiplied (then again, as Fatespinner said, perhaps it's a good idea for a solo game).
Yeah, in a normal game with multiple party members, it would be totally unbalanced. I would run it as bonus damage, just like Sneak Attack.
Another question (we're drifting off topic, I know): say you ruled that the blast would indeed be multiplied. Then say you channel it through a scimitar. Does the added damage get multiplied whenever the scimitar crits, or does it require a natural 20 as typical for rays, even when the scimitar itself scores a critical hit on its own?
Well, since the melee strike is required to hit the true AC instead of the touch AC, I would say that it would be fair to multiply the magic damage whenever the WEAPON scores a crit. My reasoning is that (supposedly) weapons with higher crit ranges are more accurate and capable of hitting "key" spots. Rays are bursts of magical energy that lack a fine, precise point. I picture them as being more of a squirt gun than a laser pointer. Therefore, when your precision-edged, finely honed blade finds a "sweet spot," the energy of the spell just disperses into that same vulnerable spot and deals its extra damage. When the magic is being carried by the weapon, it makes sense that, if the weapon hit a sweet spot, so did the magic.
I think you're right there Thanis. From the way I've been reading it, Hideous Blow can only be combined with a single melee attack per round. The damage might apply to the first hit in the flurry, but after that I'd say no way.Actually, you wouldn't be able to apply it to a flurry at all since hideous blow is, for all intents and purposes, a touch spell (spell-like ability, anyway) being channeled through a weapon. Just as a wizard cannot cast a touch spell, deliver it, and take another melee attack (if he has a +6 or higher BAB), neither can a warlock combine hideous blow with a full-attack action or flurry of blows unless he has Quicken Spell-like Ability which actually awards 3 uses per day if I recall correctly.
The description from pg. 134 of Complete Arcane:
Hideous Blow
Least; 1st; Blast Shape
As a standard action, you make a single melee atack. If you hit, the target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast (including any eldritch essence applied to the blast). This damage is in addition to any weapon damage that you deal with your attack, although you need not deal damage with this attack to trigger the eldritch blast effect.
So you can't flurry with a Hideous Blow (but the eldritch blast will do damage even if the weapon fails to penetrate a target's DR).
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Well, since the melee strike is required to hit the true AC instead of the touch AC, I would say that it would be fair to multiply the magic damage whenever the WEAPON scores a crit.
I forgot to note that I feel that the magic damage should still only be multiplied by 2, whether you crit with a longsword or a scythe. The amount of force and penetrating power of the weapon in no way amplifies the power of the magic behind it (IMO).
Personal preference would be a Fighter/Scout, they are a fast moving artillery piece on the field.
Reason: 6th lvl Ftr/Sct you have a 2 attacks by now with the fighter base attack and with the addition of rapid shot or two weapon fighting would bump you up to 3 attacks. Now the messy part. By that lvl you also quality for the feat Improved Skirmish, Skirmish 20ft an extra 2d6 and 2 ac more.
Example: you skirmish the 20ft and rapid shot an opponent, those three attacks you make given thay all connect you add skirmish dmg to each.
On a further messy note: If you also happen to pick the Telling Blow feat when you conform a critical hit you add you skirmish or sneak attack dmg to the total amount.
P.S yes I know this post sounds rather Timmy the Power Gamer-ish. I am in no means against or for it. I'll admit I have a itch for powering it out sometimes. But only in moderation.
Oh and umm the skill points and skill list is pretty good too.
I ran one gestalt campaign when The Expanded Psionics Handbook came out. I really wanted my players to try the new psionic rules, but I didn't want them to feel too limited; I allowed them to pick one psionic class and one "standard" class. They chose: a fighter/psychic warrior, a monk/psion (kineticist), and a cleric/psion (telepath).
It was actually a really fun (and long) campaign. We reached epic levels. The only downside was that I had to keep upping the ante because they were so powerful.
I doubt I'd run anything that high-powered again, but it was loads of fun.
I am running one but I am taking a step to the old 1st edition and second edition.
Im starting characters off with the option of up to three classes at the same time.
But the number of classes determines on what track a character advances
in. Fast for single class. medium for two classes and slow for triple class.
This has the same effect as multiclassing in the lower levels in the old dungeon and dragon games.
I am also charging 10 build points for each class above the 1st.
I have in my group
Sylph Mythic\Witch\Cleric
Aasimar Mythic\Sorcerer\Bard
Half Elf Fighter\Rouge\Wizard
Dwarf Barbarian\Alchemist
Strig Ranger\Rouge
Human Cleric\Wizard
Human Brawler\Druid
Dwarven Half Orc (Mixed Racial Rules)Ranger\Druid
The two characters that took mythic got charged 10 character points just like it was a regular class along with corresponding slow advancement for having three classes. I may be generous but I am not stupid.