I was wondering what people with different belief systems would do and, more importantly, *why* would you choose to reveal/conceal the evidence?
Hmmm...
I would conceal the evidence.
I completely disagree with Kirth's statement on our ability to rehabilitate Greg here, we may simply be not trying hard enough. Our culture cares more about justice (revenge, in my view) than what is right (with the assuption that justice/punishment=right, which I disagree with). Considering my inability to change the justice system, I would assume that locking him up would do more harm to Greg than good. However, Greg has expressed the ability, and desire, to kill multiple people. The jump from killing two people and killing three or four is not so much, psychologically speaking. Whatever reason he had (or possably lack thereof) for killing his wives, it is clear to me that it is a common enough condition to cause him to kill two wives in a row. We would be locking him up (or whatever) for the benefit of whatever later wives he may have, or anyone else he could potentially decide to kill.
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I'm talking about going further than that, though. People on disability, welfare, etc. These are people that are a huge drain on society and I don't necessarily see how they are "benefitting" the "group". (I don't really feel this way, just showing how the argument could go.)Who am I, or anyone else, to say that the disabled are useless? Maybe little Tommy in the wheelchair can't work in the fields, but he's good at speaking and can motivate people to be better than they are (think those cheesy people you laughed at in high school and later developed deep respect for). Suzy only has one arm, but she uses the one she has to write beautiful poetry on a great many topics. Are these people phisically disabled? Yes. Are they useful? Looks like it to me.
Looks like you took that post wrong. I assume that Moff was referencing people that are on disability and NOT providing a benefit to society and people who are on welfare that see it as "child support" from the government and make no effort to better themselves or thier lives. There are a huge amount of people in both programs who are scamming the government and draining resources from society that could be better put to use on people who wish to do better.
I can name 3-4 people who are on one or the other that shouldn't be. My aunt decided to slash her wrists 30 odd years ago over drug addiction and now collects a disability check from the government for full disability while working under the table making $20 an hour doing masonry work. Sound fair? No. Is she disabled? No. Drain on society? Damn right.FH
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Dirk,
Nobody wants to stick it to people with actual disabilities. That's just cold.
BUT, When you FINALLY start to get a big paycheck and start paying bills, and rent, and all that crapola, and you see how much of your money gets ganked by Uncle Sam to go to social security and taxes and welfare,
And you go to the store with your mom who worked her ass off all her life and she's buying hamburger meat and the lady up ahead of her is buying filet mignon with freakin' foodstamps,
a little lightbulb will go off in your head.
Hey, my mom's eating hamburger. She's also buying this lady filet mignon, with the taxes she paid. Isn't that snazzy?
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Dirk,
Nobody wants to stick it to people with actual disabilities. That's just cold.
BUT, When you FINALLY start to get a big paycheck and start paying bills, and rent, and all that crapola, and you see how much of your money gets ganked by Uncle Sam to go to social security and taxes and welfare,
And you go to the store with your mom who worked her ass off all her life and she's buying hamburger meat and the lady up ahead of her is buying filet mignon with freakin' foodstamps,
a little lightbulb will go off in your head.
Hey, my mom's eating hamburger. She's also buying this lady filet mignon, with the taxes she paid. Isn't that snazzy?
I live in a pretty poor area, and I've actually seen shit like this happen. It makes me f!$*ing sick. The entire government is broken. NUKE THE WHALES! NUKE THE WHALES! NUKE THE WHALES!
Are any of your aliases plotting the demise of eachother?
hehehehehehe!!!
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I live in a pretty poor area, and I've actually seen s&&~ like this happen. It makes me f@*!ing sick. The entire government is broken. NUKE THE WHALES! NUKE THE WHALES! NUKE THE WHALES!Dirk,
Nobody wants to stick it to people with actual disabilities. That's just cold.
BUT, When you FINALLY start to get a big paycheck and start paying bills, and rent, and all that crapola, and you see how much of your money gets ganked by Uncle Sam to go to social security and taxes and welfare,
And you go to the store with your mom who worked her ass off all her life and she's buying hamburger meat and the lady up ahead of her is buying filet mignon with freakin' foodstamps,
a little lightbulb will go off in your head.
Hey, my mom's eating hamburger. She's also buying this lady filet mignon, with the taxes she paid. Isn't that snazzy?
Yeah. I'm glad I pay taxes; I prolly pay fakey's aunts' disability check. (no offense to fakey or nuthin...I know crazy money people too...) Effit; I got 2 kids one on the way; what the hell do I need the money for?
Jade, your post was quite lovely and poetic. Thanks for sharing your views!
BTW, my supreme pride and arrogance forces me to reiterate...I'm waay better than a squirrel! ;P
Well, I'll agree, you're probably better than most squirrels, but there's this one out Topeka way some say can deduce Pi to the 100,000th decimal. She suffered a fall from a tree when she was young and when her brain healed she'd developed from synethesia and could perform wild mathematical tricks because she could just see the answers in her head. On top of that, she's Viggo Mortensen's life coach and has won several omlette making contests.
I live in a pretty poor area, and I've actually seen s%## like this happen. It makes me f#&*ing sick. The entire government is broken. NUKE THE WHALES! NUKE THE WHALES! NUKE THE WHALES!
Psst... dude, you haven't heard? The man doesn't want you to know this but the whales are the nukes! They can travel to and launch from any ocean at any time. Think about it. They were the only animal big enough to carry and firily regurgitate a small ICBM (thus, I don't wanna C a whale's BM--it sends the Geiger counters screaming).
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Consider the evolution of man and chimpanzee from our common ancestor: Chimpanzees have gone through more generations than humans (owing mostly to their shorter life-span), but more than that they've developed more 'positive traits' - chimpanzees are less like our common ancestor than we are. They're more evolved than us! Of course, we didn't need to adapt so much physically, because we've adapted technologically. Who's really better? I myself am a fan of intelligence, but I'll admit I'm biased.
The key to my point is the word "more". I myself have often thought about how nice it might be without resposibilities, bills, politics, war, blah, blah, blah... It is very easy to say "is this really 'better'?" However, I still feel that we, as humans, are much, much more than simple animals.
The key to my point is the word "more". I myself have often thought about how nice it might be without resposibilities, bills, politics, war, blah, blah, blah... It is very easy to say "is this really 'better'?" However, I still feel that we, as humans, are much, much more than simple animals.
I think I heard a squirrel say the exact same about squirrels. Odd enough, that. I think we're going to need to conduct some sort of interspecial olympics to settle the issue. I know we humans will take all the linguistic events with ease, but the horses will win the event I'd have liked to have won. The gorilla's will probably take the bench press event and elephants the dead lift. Keeping a great rivalry going, the dove tail swifts and peregrine falcons are both clocking in at 180 mph dives, but there's a very leaden bee out there named Humbert who swears he can free fall at a speed of over 190. Unfortunately human babies have to compete seperately from adult humans, and though I'm much more than a simple baby, I could never defeat them in the colicky cry-off event. Believe me, I've tried, but my whining is inappropriately drag-queen guttural.
Yeah. I'm glad I pay taxes; I prolly pay fakey's aunts' disability check. (no offense to fakey or nuthin...I know crazy money people too...) Effit; I got 2 kids one on the way; what the hell do I need the money for?
For some reason I'm seeing two dirty shmucks in a wood paneled basement firing up a crack pipe and, moving closer to the camera for their gory close-up, squawking their manically ingratious thanks to you for your subsidy.
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I'm talking about going further than that, though. People on disability, welfare, etc. These are people that are a huge drain on society and I don't necessarily see how they are "benefitting" the "group". (I don't really feel this way, just showing how the argument could go.)
Who am I, or anyone else, to say that the disabled are useless? Maybe little Tommy in the wheelchair can't work in the fields, but he's good at speaking and can motivate people to be better than they are (think those cheesy people you laughed at in high school and later developed deep respect for). Suzy only has one arm, but she uses the one she has to write beautiful poetry on a great many topics. Are these people phisically disabled? Yes. Are they useful? Looks like it to me.
Looks like you took that post wrong. I assume that Moff was referencing people that are on disability and NOT providing a benefit to society and people who are on welfare that see it as "child support" from the government and make no effort to better themselves or thier lives. There are a huge amount of people in both programs who are scamming the government and draining resources from society that could be better put to use on people who wish to do better.
Thanks Fakey and Heath. I too have seen both sides. I have seen very disabled people who have done great things. I have seen people who do nothing but sit at home and collect money for it.
My point is that with regards to "benefitting the group", someone needs to determine what that means and what to do about it. I just don't necessarily feel that "benefitting the group" should be the determination for "right" and "wrong".
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I think I heard a squirrel say the exact same about squirrels. Odd enough, that. I think we're going to need to conduct some sort of interspecial olympics to settle the issue. I know we humans will take all the linguistic events with ease, but the horses will win the event I'd have liked to have won. The gorilla's will probably take the bench press event and elephants the dead lift. Keeping a great rivalry going, the dove tail swifts and peregrine falcons are both clocking in at 180 mph dives, but there's a very leaden bee out there named Humbert who swears he can free fall at a speed of over 190. Unfortunately human babies have to compete seperately from adult humans, and though I'm much more than a simple baby, I could never defeat them in the colicky cry-off event. Believe me, I've tried, but my whining is inappropriately drag-queen guttural.
I had to laugh. Thanks...
At the same time -- we can go faster, fly higher, lift more than any other creature on the planet.
Both of my children would have lost the cry-off event -- and I am glad for that.
At the same time -- we can go faster, fly higher, lift more than any other creature on the planet.
Not us, but the technology we've created. Hate to go all Terminator here, but once these mighty machines have been given some level of sentience, you do all realize that us being rendered but carbon unit toast is a bit of a sure thing despite Aasimov's laws, right? All technology is explored if there's a market for it, and subsequently its original intent is often perverted for non traditional uses. It is in this unregulated evolution that we're going to accidentally let slip the leash.
If going faster, flying higher, lifting more, and thinking quicker mark some splinter of god's divinity of Earth... then, in the long run, we are merely Joseph, and our steely children the Chosen.
Kill the robots, sez me. R2D2's a trojan horse--don't believe the cuteness. He'll grind our bones to make his bread. Beep-boop beebidy!
Survival is a matter of physical capability; however, intelligence is a cheap substitute.
Survival is a matter of physical capability; however, intelligence is a cheap substitute.
No doubt. I once lived off my own intelligence for six days in the wilderness when I was stranded on an ice floe without food. Oh, man I chowed down on that mealy intellect, despite its blandness. That's why I talk the way I does do now.
Unholy Mother of Fudge! This thread is still going? And at well over 1,000 posts!
Um, no comments other than that. I remember when we started this thread, oh those months ago...
I'll have to read back a bit and see if I can pick up the, er... thread of the conversation.
Survival is a matter of physical capability; however, intelligence is a cheap substitute.No doubt. I once lived off my own intelligence for six days in the wilderness when I was stranded on an ice floe without food. Oh, man I chowed down on that mealy intellect, despite its blandness. That's why I talk the way I does do now.
Mmmm...
Intelligence...
My point is that with regards to "benefitting the group", someone needs to determine what that means and what to do about it. I just don't necessarily feel that "benefitting the group" should be the determination for "right" and "wrong".
I was actually referring to actions rather than people. But you do have a point. The idea isn't perfect, but it is in my opinion the best goal. Here it is, mostly: "benefit" is something that has, in the long run, an effect that will promote a greater amount of growth (in any area possable; spiritually, in health, etc) over the amount of damage. It is simple, and in most cases it gets the job done.
OK, about the welfare thing: that all just makes me sick. When I was a kid, my mother (the single working mother with two kids) tried to apply for welfare several times, in two states. (Virginia and NY, we moved because in VA we lived in suburbia and we figured that living in a middle of nowhere would help. It didn't for a while.) We never got it. For a great stretch (right after we moved) my mother was unemployed. We still didn't qualify. How? I don't know. The result? Anyone ever seen Cinderella Man? It makes me angry to think that people can just sit on their asses and the govenment gives them money. Some people honestly need welfare and are trying to get off it, but some don't and/or aren't. It just pisses me off.
One moment please...
*Wanders away a few paces*
F%$$ing f@%* f*#*! F@~~ f++@ers f*~@ shit f#*%!
I have needed that for weeks.
One moment please...
*Wanders away a few paces*
f!##ing f!## f!##! f!## f!##ers f!## s!~# f!##!
I have needed that for weeks.
I need that every DAY.
Had dinner with a friend last night--a born-again Christian and nice fellow--and the topic of the failed McCain immigration bill came up. I'm not interested in a discussion of the bill's pros and cons; whatever people's opionions of it may have been, it's a non-issue now. I don't really care to discuss immigration at all, except as it pertains to what I'm asking here. See, what struck me about my friend's comments is that his reasons for denouncing the bill were neither economic nor logical, but essentially biblical:
(1) All those who wish to come to live in the U.S. are freeloaders or criminals (sinners) who fundamentally don't deserve to be here; they can achieve the grace of America only by the sacrifices of those who live here.
(2) The border must be sealed off from the undeserving, and a "St. Peter" like immigration agency is needed to pass judgement on those who wish to enter.
(3) Any who sneak in or who try to sneak in must be punished and forever barred from grace. It doesn't matter if they work, pay taxes and penalties, and go back to the end of the line ("no amnesty!")--they must be put into prison or otherwise forever kept from entering this sacred land.
The political merits of his points are irrelevant to me here, what I'm interested in is the fact that he more or less dismissed the need for workers, the lack of funding for border patrols and the essentially unenforceable vast streches of border, the economic conditions in Mexico, etc. as all being irrelevant. Also--and this could be a coincidence--but a rant against the bill I heard over the weekend from a Roman Catholic friend was disturbingly similar, with exactly the same biblical tone, focus on specific issues, and even word usages--except the Catholic guy would allow a "purgatory" for those wanting to come in and lacking the full grace of the Immigration authorities. Both of them also spoke of the existing laws as if they were part of the natural order of things: divinely ordained and immutable, as if the idea of changing them is blasphemous.
I wonder if this is discussed in churches, with pastors and priests explaining the issue in these biblical terms, or if the issue has some resonance with the Christian faith that makes people think of immigration as a situation of sorting sinners into heaven or hell, or what. I also wonder if the non-Christians tend to view the issue as economic rather than as one of "eternal grace or eternal punishment?" Just curious.
Very interesting, Kirth. Although now we have to start A Civil Illegal Immigration Discussion. Although you're not interested I had a friend, Juan Adan Esteban Barcenas Puga, who was an illegal who had perfected an art of cutting beer and soda cans of varying colors into long strips and then weaving these strips to form... anything... cowboy hats, steering wheel covers (ouch). I commissioned him to make a cuirass, a helmet and round and kite shields for a dream scene in a prop-dependent movie in preproduction. He said that after spending ten years here, if he didn't make more money that he had been he was going to go back to Mexico for good. He said he was going for a visit and I said, "Isn't it hard to get back over."
He laughed shyly. "It's so easy. I've crossed the border fourteen times each way."
When friends would say to me, back in the mid-90s, that illegal aliens were taking our jobs, I never really understood why computer engineers were whining about lost landscaper jobs and so I towed the liberal line, because as far as I knew, nobody here was cutting up metal cans and making kite shields. But now, working as a contractor, I'm constantly competing against people who, though having a right terrible time of it themselves to which I am completely sympathetic, are competing against me unfairly, carrying neither the burden of taxes, insurance, nor the need to make the kind of wage it costs to live even half decently in America. This has nothing to do with race, I also own a pet sitting service and I'd say about only five such services in the area are bonded, insured, and actually pay taxes to the government. We're competing against the 400 lone wolf supermarket-flyer sitters who do it off the books and can afford to undercut our prices.
While sympathetic to anyone who needs to eat... so do I, and a battle for diminishing blue collar resources coupled with the high mindedness of people who never have to directly compete for a living wage with immigrants here illegally is going to make for strange chapter to come in American history. One that will probably make us look reactionary and frazzled on both sides of the issue. What I can't stand is that you can't take my position without it looking racial, close-minded, or xenophobic. Considering who my friends are, especially the Spanish ones, I have an unpopular point of view, though they understand that I'm coming from a sensitive place. One day while talking with Debra Winger she asked if she could hire me for something. I told her that I didn't hire day laborers when doing home improvement (because some people take that very seriously) and she cut me off in conversation with a throughly aggravated, prepared line... one that would close our chat relationship forever:
"I don't care if someone's last name ends in a vowel."
Neither do I. Great, so now I guess I'm to wear a white klan hood, nazi jackboots, a red, white and blue speedo and a mustard-stained T that reads, "America--Love It Or Leave It!"
Juuuuuuuuuuuuuuust great. Once people have it in their minds that you're a bigot, sky writing won't convince them otherwise.
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I wonder if this is discussed in churches, with pastors and priests explaining the issue in these biblical terms, or if the issue has some resonance with the Christian faith that makes people think of immigration as a situation of sorting sinners into heaven or hell, or what. I also wonder if the non-Christians tend to view the issue as economic rather than as one of "eternal grace or eternal punishment?" Just curious.
I have not heard this in church. If I have heard anything about related subjects it is usually along the lines of how we need to accept them and help them (assuming they are here legally -- otherwise you get into legal issues) and to "show them the love of Christ" or something similar.
It doesn't surprise me that it has been brought up in churches -- especially in churches that are closer to the border where there are probably a lot more prejudices going on. I'm not saying that it is right -- just that it is probably more of a regional thing.
See, what struck me about my friend's comments is that his reasons for denouncing the bill were neither economic nor logical, but essentially biblical:
(1) All those who wish to come to live in the U.S. are freeloaders or criminals (sinners) who fundamentally don't deserve to be here; they can achieve the grace of America only by the sacrifices of those who live here.
(2) The border must be sealed off from the undeserving, and a "St. Peter" like immigration agency is needed to pass judgement on those who wish to enter.
(3) Any who sneak in or who try to sneak in must be punished and forever barred from grace. It doesn't matter if they work, pay taxes and penalties, and go back to the end of the line ("no amnesty!")--they must be put into prison or otherwise forever kept from entering this sacred land.
Okay, this is tangential to your question, Kirth, but I have to address this.
When did Christianity in this country become snotty, elitist and priveledged? Do these people truly and honstely believe they are being in any way at all Christ-like? I see it everywhere these days, and it disgusts me. It's utterly unrelated to the Christianity I was taught growing up. And it's one of the many reasons I want nothing to do with the religion any more.
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When did Christianity in this country become snotty, elitist and priveledged?
It hasn't. People are "snotty, elitist and priveledged". It just so happens that some of these people happen to claim to be "Christian" and being "snotty, elitist and priveldged" often times means that they are more vocal (and more noticable) than the other variety.
It hasn't. People are "snotty, elitist and priveledged". It just so happens that some of these people happen to claim to be "Christian" and being "snotty, elitist and priveldged" often times means that they are more vocal (and more noticable) than the other variety.
Fair point. However, it's something I've seen on more than just an individual level. There's a number of movements, such as the so-called "Prosperity Movement," and the Dominionist movement, that are snotty, elitist and priveleged on a group level. With some movements being scarier than others.
But fair point. I was being too general.
It hasn't. People are "snotty, elitist and priveledged". It just so happens that some of these people happen to claim to be "Christian" and being "snotty, elitist and priveldged" often times means that they are more vocal (and more noticable) than the other variety.
So true, and so easy to lose sight of.
...but essentially biblical:... ...they must be put into prison or otherwise forever kept from entering this sacred land.
...Wow. Thanks for sharing that bit. What impresses (or rather depresses) me about this reasoning here, is the blatant shoe-horning of theology to suit a point-of-view. It is dangerous to equate/align or intertwine nationality with spirituality. America is a great nation, a dream built up, stumbling here and there, but still in it's liberty great...I love it - absolutely. But it's not a promised land...not heaven on Earth. I mean, otherwise the worst pedarast or axe-murderer (...when was the last time we had one of those? I digress...) would be considered to morally superior to a person bouncing across the border for a better shot at life.
I don't believe in amnesty, but I understand why people would come. I know people - mostly Central & South American immigrants themselves - who are extremists on both sides of this issue...it's fascinating to watch their debates. There's got to be some middle ground here.
It's utterly unrelated to the Christianity I was taught growing up. And it's one of the many reasons I want nothing to do with the religion any more.
Totally! And it's one of the many reasons that a group of us removed ourselves en masse from our traditional denomination and started a no-frills, church-unplugged fellowship.
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There's a number of movements, such as the so-called "Prosperity Movement," and the Dominionist movement, that are snotty, elitist and priveleged on a group level. With some movements being scarier than others.
Not familiar with the "dominionist movement". I believe that the "prosperity movement" had to do with the "Prayer of Jabez". This had to do with a single verse in all of the Bible that, while not necessarily out of context, was grossly emphasized to a rediculous point. More specifically, one writer had a cute idea, wrote a book about it, it became a best seller and people took that to be the word of God. Needless to say that I didn't sign on with that "movement" and was glad to see it go as quickly as it came.
I was a Dominoist once. We had a gymnasium floor blanketed in 40,000 of the lil buggers but one Michael Jordan impression and a momentary loss of balance and our War of 1812 collapsible diorama was over before it had started. May L. Ron Hubbard forgive our sins.
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I was a Dominoist once. We had a gymnasium floor blanketed in 40,000 of the lil buggers but one Michael Jordan impression and a momentary loss of balance and our War of 1812 collapsible diorama was over before it had started. May L. Ron Hubbard forgive our sins.
You are so weird. I don't usually comment on your posts, but I enjoy reading them.
You are so weird. I don't usually comment on your posts, but I enjoy reading them.
You are correct. And thank you kindly.
Not familiar with the "dominionist movement".
It's the movement that believes that America is God's true promised land, and Christ will return just as soon as the Dominionists succeed in turning America into a Christian theocracy.
I believe that the "prosperity movement" had to do with the "Prayer of Jabez". This had to do with a single verse in all of the Bible that, while not necessarily out of context, was grossly emphasized to a rediculous point. More specifically, one writer had a cute idea, wrote a book about it, it became a best seller and people took that to be the word of God. Needless to say that I didn't sign on with that "movement" and was glad to see it go as quickly as it came.
It's not so far gone, yet. There's plenty of prosperity believers still out there, with televised services even. And my (outsider) understanding is that many of the new Mega Churches practice something akin to it. Actually, my understanding is that the Mega Churches tend to practice quite an array of mish-mashed dogmas, to appeal to the broadest spectrum of people.
There's plenty of prosperity believers still out there, with televised services even. And my (outsider) understanding is that many of the new Mega Churches practice something akin to it. Actually, my understanding is that the Mega Churches tend to practice quite an array of mish-mashed dogmas, to appeal to the broadest spectrum of people.
I live in the Land of the Mega-Churches. There is strong sentiment among many people that America is the New Jersusalem, that Americans are God's chosen people, and that ownership of larger houses and more junk are clear signs of divine favor. It's pretty freaky.
Very interesting, Kirth. Although now we have to start A Civil Illegal Immigration Discussion. ...When friends would say to me, back in the mid-90s, that illegal aliens were taking our jobs, I never really understood why computer engineers were whining about lost landscaper jobs and so I towed the liberal line, because as far as I knew, nobody here was cutting up metal cans and making kite shields. But now, working as a contractor, I'm constantly competing against people who, though having a right terrible time of it themselves to which I am completely sympathetic, are competing against me unfairly, carrying neither the burden of taxes, insurance, nor the need to make the kind of wage it costs to live even half decently in America. This has nothing to do with race, I also own a pet sitting service and I'd say about only five such services in the area are bonded, insured, and actually pay taxes to the government. We're competing against the 400 lone wolf supermarket-flyer sitters who do it off the books and can afford to undercut our prices.
While sympathetic to anyone who needs to eat... so do I, and a battle for diminishing blue collar resources coupled with the high mindedness of people who never have to directly compete for a living wage with immigrants here illegally is going to make for...
In a rare occurance, I must absolutely and unequivocally AGREE with Jade! I believe his point here mirrors my own. The problem with immigration is that illegals not only drain the system but compete unfairly against honest working people. Some argue that illegal immigrants are willing to do jobs that legal Americans refuse to do. But one must ask *why* legal workers refuse such jobs. Most require tedious and back-breaking labor but that's not the whole reason such jobs are undesireable. Jobs that illegal immigrants often work at provide no insurance, unfair wages and/or hours, etc. These jobs defy the workers' rights that were hard-won by labor reformists of the past. In short, they border on slavery (no pun intended!). This criminal system (criminal in that it denies the workers basic American rights), perpetuated by employers who target illegal immigrants, takes advantage of the honest working American as well as the illegal immigrant him/herself. If we reward illegal immigrants then we punish those who sacrificed in order to immigrate legally and we undermine the principles of law and order. If we ignore the American employers who perpetuate this problem then no amount of immigration reform will ever solve this problem, which is equally economic and social. But the entire mindset of this country seems to be that one cannot argue against the majority (often politically-correct) attitudes without immediately being labeled racist, bigoted, narrow-minded or a host of other derogatory terms.
As far as Kirth's examples, I don't really have an explanation. I can say that I have never heard this subject mentioned in my own church nor the churches of my friends and family. I find the attitudes of the "christians" you encountered highly offensive and completely un-Christlike. I *hope* they were simply verbalizing their personal views and that they weren't coached or influenced by their perspective churches! Am I saying it can't have happened? Sadly, no. It doesn't surprise me, unfortunately, if such things do take place. So many bring dishonor, IMO, to Christ's name and Christianity in general.
Speaking only for myself, I don't think the immigration issue has any special significance to Christianity and I find the application of "christian principles" or theology, whether comparing America to the Promised Land or, worse, heaven - personally very offensive and a complete misrepresentation/abuse of such ideas.
{Sigh!} Sometimes, it's very frustrating to feel compelled to explain the atrocious behaviors/attitudes of others who claim to be Christians.
(2) The border must be sealed off from the undeserving, and a "St. Peter" like immigration agency is needed to pass judgement on those who wish to enter.
Give us your doctors, your teachers, your scientists, and keep your huddled masses to yourself.
And that's all I have to say about that.
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I live in the Land of the Mega-Churches. There is strong sentiment among many people that America is the New Jersusalem, that Americans are God's chosen people, and that ownership of larger houses and more junk are clear signs of divine favor. It's pretty freaky.
I thought that divine favor only gives +1 to hit and damage...
I live in the Land of the Mega-Churches. There is strong sentiment among many people that America is the New Jersusalem, that Americans are God's chosen people, and that ownership of larger houses and more junk are clear signs of divine favor. It's pretty freaky.I thought that divine favor only gives +1 to hit and damage...
Ever been hit with a large house? +1 damage hurts more than you'd think.
OK, I lied, I do have more to say on the subject.
I agree totally with The Jade and Lady Aurora. I sympathize with those who try to come into America, but allowing an unlimited number of people in will just hurt everyone involved. Personally, I feel that a true immigration bill would involve making the countries that these illegal immigrants come from better places to live in. I don't care if America doesn't technically have jurisdiction over other countries, it is affecting us and we sould have the ability to make changes that are beneficial to both sides of the fence.
I'll re-iterate that I'm not looking for commentary on immigration--I get more of that than I could ever know what to do with. I'm most interested in the biblical-parallel lines of argument I've been hearing. Aurora and Moff, thanks for clearing up your experiences with it; hopefully, if you're anti-immigration (obviously YOU are, Aurora), you'll be able to avoid the disturbing lines of argument I've outlined when you discuss it in the future!
Yeah, I didn't want to open a threadjacking can of worms, I just wanted to share what I believe to be my even tempered view on the subject... and considering how charged the issue is and how upset so many seems to get, I wish I had let it lie.
I wasn't coming from a place of "Lou Dobbs says" (nor has anyone, thus far). I spoke from knowing what it is to repeatedly lose bids to unfair business competition. I'm catching front line fire here, and so idealistic speeches about America as the great melting pot sometimes reach me as academic and altruistic, but not grounded in the reality of my own situation. I grew up with Mexicans in Southern California and was bi-lingual by the age of four. My mother and godmother used to hustle Mexican gents at pool and I recall that everyone seemed to be cooking up an ending torrent of chili; breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I never had a real concern over illegal immigration until it began to directly affect my own paycheck.
I live in the Land of the Mega-Churches. There is strong sentiment among many people that America is the New Jersusalem, that Americans are God's chosen people, and that ownership of larger houses and more junk are clear signs of divine favor. It's pretty freaky.
The other day, I happened to flip on an eschatological televangelist trying to sell the idea that WASPs are the lost tribes of Israel. You see, the Jutes were actually the Judea, and the Saxons were 'Isaac's Sons'. I laughed so hard my flatmate thought I was choking.
The other day, I happened to flip on an eschatological televangelist trying to sell the idea that WASPs are the lost tribes of Israel. You see, the Jutes were actually the Judea, and the Saxons were 'Isaac's Sons'. I laughed so hard my flatmate thought I was choking.
I'm not really sure where this whole idea comes from; though I suspect it has antisemetic roots. I guess some groups of nonJewish people just can't stand the idea of the Jews being God's chosen people. This makes some sense I guess; being viewed as favored by God is certainly a desirable thing. It all boils down to arrogance, IMO. It's ridiculous though the hoops one must go through to try to twist scripture to include anyone other than the Jews themselves as God's chosen people; which is unnecessary anyway since Gentiles have the opportunity to be "adopted". Anyway, I just find the whole (nonJews as God's chosen people) thing silly and clearly non-scriptural.
I guess some groups of nonJewish people just can't stand the idea of the Jews being God's chosen people. This makes some sense I guess; being viewed as favored by God is certainly a desirable thing. It all boils down to arrogance, IMO.
I've said it before and I'll say it again: I've often (almost always, in fact) found that someone's expressed beliefs about God, and what God wants, says much more about the person speaking than it does about God's desires.