I'm still holding onto Santa Claus. I like the presents he gives me when I perform lap dances on ...
Yeah, that was TMI. Next.
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If I had a child that told me they were devoting their life to god then I would feel I had failed them.
As an atheist I disagree with this. I would feel that I had failed my children if they didn't make that decision themselves. Would I be disappointed that they "fell for it"? Of course, but I am going to try and be as impartial as possible when it comes to matters of faith--that is a personal decision that should be made when a person is mature enough to do so. The only reason there are so many christians in the world is due to indoctrination of children--therefore I will start encouraging them to research and explore when they are around 10-12, but not a minute before. Unfortunately what my ex does is a different story--the sad part is she was an atheist and I believe the only reason she's going to church now is her new husband.
I'm still holding onto Santa Claus. I like the presents he gives me when I perform lap dances on ...
Yeah, that was TMI. Next.
Santa Claus sounds like he might be a priest.
** spoiler omitted **
Neither could he. And that's the sad part. :p
More details -
My daughter's reaction/announcement was in response to my wife admonishing her on one of her bugaboos. My wife dislikes it when people say 'Oh, my God' rather than 'Oh, my gosh'. Like I said, it's a pet peeve of my wife's.
I'm not sure if my daughter's lack of belief is simply questioning, rebellion, or a crisis of faith. She equates miracles in the Bible to magic. An overly-simplistic POV.
Unfortunately, the 'coming out' was not a genuine 'discussion'. It was part of a teenager's normal reaction to being admonished. Just one piece of basically an argument. She says hurtful things quite often. Too often. We try to get her to realize this as a bad habit. It has caused her problems with her own friends. Basically, try to think before you speak and avoid adversarial comments. In this case, she used the announcement to put my wife back a few notches.
I believe my daughter is simply in a questioning mode. I encouraged her to think and make her own decision. It's normal, and good. If the thought process is involved. Even if she decides to not believe in God. We'll be sad, but OK with that.
So, the admonishing was for the way she put it out there, not the concept itself. I made that clear to my daughter, and to my wife. I also challenged her to make an well-rounded/non-insular decision, over as much time as she needed. And not be afraid to change her mind later.
sidebar - Where some would use the terms indoctrination/brainwashing (negative terms), the more accurate description would be socialization.
If I had a child that told me they were devoting their life to god then I would feel I had failed them.As an atheist I disagree with this. I would feel that I had failed my children if they didn't make that decision themselves. Would I be disappointed that they "fell for it"? Of course, but I am going to try and be as impartial as possible when it comes to matters of faith--that is a personal decision that should be made when a person is mature enough to do so. The only reason there are so many christians in the world is due to indoctrination of children--therefore I will start encouraging them to research and explore when they are around 10-12, but not a minute before.
As a believer, +1. Though with objections to the indoctrination term and the bolded 'only'. Socialization. It's a good word. :)
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I had a similar conversation with an old friend of the family. My husband and I are both atheists. However we have started to discuss children and adoption (my country has no real such taboos about gay adoption). Anyway when this old friend found out about the adoption his response is what about religious morals. I told him while my husband and I value open mindedness and straightforwardness, we would let the child decide it's own religious view when they are mature enough to make a choice. The responding question was if the child wanted to attend regular church services would we be willing to allow that to happen. I responded with certainly I would even go so far as to drive the child there and pick them up afterward. But again my belief is very firm as is my husbands. I value free choice, but I also value not shaping the childs world view one way or the other until it is mature enough to make a choice on it's own.
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If I had a child that told me they were devoting their life to god then I would feel I had failed them.As an atheist I disagree with this. I would feel that I had failed my children if they didn't make that decision themselves. Would I be disappointed that they "fell for it"? Of course, but I am going to try and be as impartial as possible when it comes to matters of faith--that is a personal decision that should be made when a person is mature enough to do so. The only reason there are so many christians in the world is due to indoctrination of children--therefore I will start encouraging them to research and explore when they are around 10-12, but not a minute before.As a believer, +1. Though with objections to the indoctrination term and the bolded 'only'. Socialization. It's a good word. :)
OK, maybe not the only reason. As far as the use of indoctrination, I don't believe it is too strong a term. Young children are like sponges. And clay. Like spongey clay: they absorb a lot and they are easily molded. IIRC, the bible calls for children to be brought to church when they are young...there's a reason for that. Think about it, if you were to take a child, send them to school, socialize them, etc. but you didn't expose them to any sort of religion at all, and then once they reached the age of majority sat them down and tried to explain the bible and christianity to them they would look at you like you were insane. The reason why adults continue to go to church and don't reject religion as superstitious mythology is due to the fact that they were exposed (indoctrinated if you will) to the fantastical material at a young age...it's normal for them, but you could get the same effect teaching them Zeus or Mithras or the Flying Spaghetti Monster was responsible. When new religions pop up (mormonism, scientology), they are ridiculed as cults...but people often forget that christianity was a cult at one point in time.
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I value free choice, but I also value not shaping the childs world view one way or the other until it is mature enough to make a choice on it's own.
Not possible.
The only way I see this as being possible is if you had no contact with your child -- in which case, you're not raising them.
Don't get me wrong. I believe/hope that I am raising my children to be able to think and make decisions for themselves. But I'd be a fool if I thought that I wasn't making an impact or that I wasn't an influence into how that develops. The truth is that you will shape the childs world view -- and in your case I believe that's a good thing. But I don't see how it's possible not to shape a child's world view. You can try and teach them to be open-minded about information that they get and so on (although that may have more to do with personality/Myers-Briggs stuff and genetics than teaching), but I still feel that it is still "shaping the child's world view".
Just my take on it.
Interesting point of view and incredibly deep on a number of levels.
What does god have to fear? Saddened, maybe.
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A related RL issue -
My 15 yo daughter announced to my wife last week that she doesn't believe there is a God. My wife is Baptist. It broke her heart. BTW, I'm Catholic, so it bummed me out a well. This is in addition to the number of nasty/disrepectful/ungrateful things a 15 yo tells a parent on an all too regular basis. :(
After thinking about it I talked my daughter. Realizing that she is 15, very intelligent, but immature in a lot of ways, and generally spoiled I pointed out to her that I know she is going thru a rough time. It's normal to question things, and be angry as a teenager, and to decide for yourself. That I understand. However, I admonished her about the flippant way she handled it. Upsetting her mother on a topic she holds dear. I also pointed out that faith is something she should decide for herself, and that in time her POV may change. But, always she should be respectful and grateful for all she has in life. Especially to the people that provide so much for her. She tried to argue about it/justify it, but I wouldn't let it be an argument. Arguing POVs isn't the issue, and generally a waste of time leading to hurt feelings. Showing respect and gratitude is. And not equating intelligence/education to understanding/faith. Also, the sensitivity lesson is one that will do her well in everything in life.
I'm not sure if I got thru, but I tried.
- This from a guy that doesn't consider himself a very good Christian, but a pretty good believer. And a father/husband that sees his wife weep out of frustration.
Later, I talked to my wife about it. I told her how dissillusioned I became with organized religion when I was a teenager, and how my POV changed when I made the mental shift from religion and man's view of /implementation of/ failure to understand it or take it into his heart.
I hope in time my daughter will change her view. It's OK to change one's view over time, and normal to do so. But either way, we'll still luv her.
My 2c.
I'm glad to hear you're giving her some time to come around. You're going to do her a world of good to let her come to her own conclusions. You show a great deal of understanding.
When I told my family about my feelings on God, they were less than happy. My mom slapped me pretty hard but refused to say any more, my Grandmother swore she'd disown me. It's hard to be in that position, especially as a teenager with all those rotten emotions running rampant.
I don't agree with the disrespectful tone, but consider that she may've been struggling with this for a while and it may be more than just her views on the divine she's actually expressing. At that age I had trouble getting two sentances out on what I actually mean, and I consider myself pretty articulate. More sit downs should be in order.
The reason why adults continue to go to church and don't reject religion as superstitious mythology is due to the fact that they were exposed (indoctrinated if you will) to the fantastical material at a young age...it's normal for them, but you could get the same effect teaching them Zeus or Mithras or the Flying Spaghetti Monster was responsible.
I believe several thread followers will strongly object to this line of reasoning.
How do you account for converts?
IIRC, the bible calls for children to be brought to church when they are young...there's a reason for that.No. (At least no more so than adults.)
It may not be spelled out in the Bible, but I have certainly observed it in the culture of all Christian churches I have been exposed to.
My daughter's teacher sent a note home at the beginning of summer reminding us to continue attending services because our spiritual growth is just as important as our education.
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IIRC, the bible calls for children to be brought to church when they are young...there's a reason for that.No. (At least no more so than adults.)It may not be spelled out in the Bible, but I have certainly observed it in the culture of all Christian churches I have been exposed to.
My daughter's teacher sent a note home at the beginning of summer reminding us to continue attending services because our spiritual growth is just as important as our education.
Oh, I'm not saying that people don't feel that it's important. Just clarifying that it isn't "Biblical".
(And for that matter, "church" is fairly fuzzy Biblically.)
I think the 'rebellious phase' is an important step in our growth as individuals. We all have to find ourselves. To do that, we have to try not being our parents. Since it is largely all we know, we try so hard to be different.
I do not think there is any easy way around this and I do not think the step can be skipped. Having a daughter myself, all I hope is that I form a strong enough relationship with her that it will survive the experience.
Right now, she is planning to go to college near by and live with us (she is 7). I hope that she will go off to college despite how difficult that will be for my wife and I. I think it will be important for her to live on her own and find herself. On the other hand, if she says she wants to live with us, I do not think I will force her out.
Gah! I had told myself I was going to stay out of this thread for a day.
(And for that matter, "church" is fairly fuzzy Biblically.)
Yes. I think I am still having a lot of trouble separating the two. I believe that is why we have difficulty understanding each other.
I don't agree with the disrespectful tone, but consider that she may've been struggling with this for a while and it may be more than just her views on the divine she's actually expressing. At that age I had trouble getting two sentances out on what I actually mean, and I consider myself pretty articulate. More sit downs should be in order.
Oh yeah, as much as I'm a believer I can still talk about this from an outside POV. This is just one part of her outlook. She seems to feel that she is the center of the universe, like any other teenager. It is Generation ME after all. ;)
As much as there is a divide btwn us old people and her age group, she has similar problems when dealing with her friends. She feels they should conform with how she thinks they should act, and gets intolerant when they don't. We're trying to help her out of this rut. Like I said, her maturity hasn't caught up with her brain. But, it will. And we'll help as best we can. These RL items help with the learning/dialogue process. It helped that I discussed this with her last nite, when her mom was out of the house. I'll have to make more time to create those opportunities.
(And for that matter, "church" is fairly fuzzy Biblically.)Yes. I think I am still having a lot of trouble separating the two. I believe that is why we have difficulty understanding each other.
Isn't everything fuzzy from a poodle's POV? ;P
Slight change in topic.
A good friend of mine's daughter recently told him --
"Dad, does God stay in heaven because He's afraid of what he created on earth?"
Interesting point of view and incredibly deep on a number of levels.
"Yes sweety, and the day Chuck Norris dies God will return to earth, and he'll be too afraid to go home."
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The reason why adults continue to go to church and don't reject religion as superstitious mythology is due to the fact that they were exposed (indoctrinated if you will) to the fantastical material at a young age...it's normal for them, but you could get the same effect teaching them Zeus or Mithras or the Flying Spaghetti Monster was responsible.I believe several thread followers will strongly object to this line of reasoning.
How do you account for converts?
There will always be exceptions to the rule, I just believe that more often than not it will happen as I described.
Slight change in topic.
A good friend of mine's daughter recently told him --
"Dad, does God stay in heaven because He's afraid of what he created on earth?"
Interesting point of view and incredibly deep on a number of levels.
I found that amusing.
(And for that matter, "church" is fairly fuzzy Biblically.)
What changed from a term meaning 'community' has turned into an actual physical building that people visit/attend.
Which makes me think about a lot of other word definitions that have changed over the past 2000 years that people are still taking literally ... in error.
(And for that matter, "church" is fairly fuzzy Biblically.)What changed from a term meaning 'community' has turned into an actual physical building that people visit/attend.
Heh. Growing up my parents made excessive repetition of the correction "It's 'church building'. The Church is the people."
Yes I am sure He is saddened by us on a daily basis.Interesting point of view and incredibly deep on a number of levels.What does god have to fear? Saddened, maybe.
No. She's out waltzing through the universe like some sort of cosmic Billy Burke.
Only a day...I was going to try longer. Sigh and I was making my will saves too.
I was losing sight of why I pop into this thread.
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I don't agree with the disrespectful tone, but consider that she may've been struggling with this for a while and it may be more than just her views on the divine she's actually expressing. At that age I had trouble getting two sentances out on what I actually mean, and I consider myself pretty articulate. More sit downs should be in order.Oh yeah, as much as I'm a believer I can still talk about this from an outside POV. This is just one part of her outlook. She seems to feel that she is the center of the universe, like any other teenager. It is Generation ME after all. ;)
As much as there is a divide btwn us old people and her age group, she has similar problems when dealing with her friends. She feels they should conform with how she thinks they should act, and gets intolerant when they don't. We're trying to help her out of this rut. Like I said, her maturity hasn't caught up with her brain. But, it will. And we'll help as best we can. These RL items help with the learning/dialogue process. It helped that I discussed this with her last nite, when her mom was out of the house. I'll have to make more time to create those opportunities.
Good, I think that would've helped me immensely. Instead, I got the cold shoulder and had a bit of a chip on my shoulder for a while as a result. That didn't stop my general curiosity about life and religion though.
Off-topic: Since someone mentioned it. Hey Urizen what are the religious views of strippers :P
I'm glad you asked. It's unconventional, but hey....flash the gash and grab the cash! Even cupcakes can be saved! link.
Trust in God, question religion. My favorite bumper sticker of the week.
I never got those kinds of bumper stickers. I assume it's supporting the idea of "as long as you have a personal relationship with God it doesn't matter if you follow the dogma/which dogma you follow", which isn't something I agree with.
Trust in God, question religion. My favorite bumper sticker of the week.I never got those kinds of bumper stickers. I assume it's supporting the idea of "as long as you have a personal relationship with God it doesn't matter if you follow the dogma/which dogma you follow", which isn't something I agree with.
And that's why we have 10,000 denominations. Schisms. Pass me the beer nuts and the chick with g-string and bigguns.
Well I also have problems with the apparent need to divide God from Religion. A personal relationship with God is religion, with all the requirements and restrictions that come with it... can't have one without the other, by the book. But as you say, schisms and denominations have come about from trying to divorce one from the other.
Well I also have problems with the apparent need to divide God from Religion. A personal relationship with God is religion, with all the requirements and restrictions that come with it... can't have one without the other, by the book. But as you say, schisms and denominations have come about from trying to divorce one from the other.
I think it's more of dividing God from [organized] religion. No issues concerning [personal] religion as a relationship with any particular deity. It's the mobilization and indoctrination without questioning such is what's worrisome to some of us.
Well I also have problems with the apparent need to divide God from Religion. A personal relationship with God is religion, with all the requirements and restrictions that come with it... can't have one without the other, by the book. But as you say, schisms and denominations have come about from trying to divorce one from the other.I think it's more of dividing God from [organized] religion. No issues concerning [personal] religion as a relationship with any particular deity. It's the mobilization and indoctrination without questioning such is what's worrisome to some of us.
That's another problem... how does one define "organized" religion? For some people it's if they're a massive, world-wide or at least state-wide organization IE the Catholic Papacy, Baptist Convention, Mormon Presidency, etc.; under that definition, the Church of Christ (of which I am a member) would not qualify, as the highest level of organization we are authorized is the eldership of each individual local congregation, each operating separate and independent of others, separate churches only united by similar beliefs.
For other people it's defined as ANY sort of gathered, regulated religious practice, which we would qualify.
So even at that distinction, there's still levels of confusion involved.
Well I also have problems with the apparent need to divide God from Religion. A personal relationship with God is religion, with all the requirements and restrictions that come with it... can't have one without the other, by the book. But as you say, schisms and denominations have come about from trying to divorce one from the other.I think it's more of dividing God from [organized] religion. No issues concerning [personal] religion as a relationship with any particular deity. It's the mobilization and indoctrination without questioning such is what's worrisome to some of us.That's another problem... how does one define "organized" religion? For some people it's if they're a massive, world-wide or at least state-wide organization IE the Catholic Church; under that definition, the Church of Christ (of which I am a member) would not qualify, as the highest level of organization we are authorized is the eldership of each individual local congregation, each operating separate and independent of others, separate churches only united by similar beliefs.
For other people it's defined as ANY sort of gathered, regulated religious practice, which we would qualify.
So even at that distinction, there's still levels of confusion involved.
The problem with definitions and distinctions. People smack each other with their own biblical translation trying to justify that theirs is the correct one. Instead, let everyone operate separate and independent without feeling the need to proselytize and dominate those perceived to be in error.
Let me put it in another perspective. Do you have an agenda to proselytize us to see things your way and build up the numbers of adherents to your faith's way of believing?
The problem with definitions and distinctions. People smack each other with their own biblical translation trying to justify that theirs is the correct one. Instead, let everyone operate separate and independent without feeling the need to proselytize and dominate those perceived to be in error.
Let me put it in another perspective. Do you have an agenda to proselytize us to see things your way and build up the numbers of adherents to your faith's way of believing?
We would prefer to, yeah. Who wouldn't want to persuade others to join them with what we believe is the right way to go?
Though most of our efforts are more directed towards screwups within, not as much without, if sermon patterns as of late are any indication.
Who wouldn't want to persuade others to join them with what we believe is the right way to go?
Thomas Paine, for one, sort of felt that the Bible (secondarily) and man's God-given reason (primarily) were all the guide to the "right" way that anyone needed, and hence any church consisting of more than two people was superfluous. Of course, he was sort of branded a heretic for that line of thinking, but I really can't fault him for it.
Yeah, a lot of church communities seem to have those internal problems. If they focus on handling things in-house, the rest of us outside playing in the yard should be able to continue on our merrily frolicking way. ;)
Who wouldn't want to persuade others to join them with what we believe is the right way to go?Thomas Paine, for one, sort of felt that the Bible (secondarily) and man's God-given reason (primarily) were all the guide to the "right" way that anyone needed, and hence any church consisting of more than two people was superfluous.
Except in my bedroom. :p
Who wouldn't want to persuade others to join them with what we believe is the right way to go?Thomas Paine, for one, sort of felt that the Bible (secondarily) and man's God-given reason (primarily) were all the guide to the "right" way that anyone needed, and hence any church consisting of more than two people was superfluous.
Which, ironically, contradicts the Bible...
Except in my bedroom.
What you and Tommy do behind closed doors certainly qualifies as being firmly in the "TMI" category.
Which, ironically, contradicts the Bible...
Nothing ironic about it; look at the order of operations. When reason contradicts the Bible, Paine was of the opinion that the Bible, as a translated work several steps removed from reality, was the lesser authority. Of course, he's considered a Deist, rather than a Christian, but if you don't need two people for a church, you don't really need labels for faiths, either.
Which, ironically, contradicts the Bible...Nothing ironic about it; look at the order of operations. When reason contradicts the Bible, Paine was of the opinion that the Bible, as a translated work several steps removed from reality, was the lesser authority. Of course, he's considered a Deist, rather than a Christian, but if you don't need two people for a church, you don't really need labels for faiths, either.
Yeah, you edited that in while I was posting >_>
You might read Paine's The Age of Reason, or Ethan Allen's Reason the Only Oracle of Man.
Or, to go back a bit earlier, Thomas Hobbes' Leviathan is starting to trend that direction.
Thomas Jefferson's Jeffersonian Bible also makes for an interesting point of view.
Who wouldn't want to persuade others to join them with what we believe is the right way to go?
Have you heard of a wondrous role playing game called Hero System? Let me introduce you.
Who wouldn't want to persuade others to join them with what we believe is the right way to go?Have you heard of a wondrous role playing game called Hero System? Let me introduce you.
Actually no, other than references to "Courtfool plays Hero" no I haven't. :P