RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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The spell fire seeds says that you can create several small explosives to be used as you see fit in one of two categories:
1) The seed may be detonated with a command word, allowing the caster to use them as 'mines' to be placed ahead of time and then detonated when he sees something approaching the area the seed is planted in. This use allows a Reflex save.
2) The seed may be thrown as a ranged touch attack, inflicting damage on impact and dealing damage to surrounding areas. This use does NOT allow a save if the seed hits the target's touch AC. The splash damage allows a save.
You can create several of these seeds with a single casting of this spell. I'm concerned with the following: What prevents a character from making a handful of seeds according to the second method described and just flinging a whole handful of them at a large creature? This would allow DEVASTATING amounts of damage (easily in excess of 100) without a save. On one hand, you can say 'You may only throw one a turn' but the spell doesn't say that. There's nothing that logically prevents a character from just flinging the whole handful at once. Even if you give them a -10 penalty to the attack roll for using a cluster instead of throwing them individually, the caster most likely hits the touch AC of a lot of creatures, especially larger ones.
How do you keep this in check? Or do you? Is dishing out 100+ damage with a ranged touch attack once per round with no save reasonable for a 7th level spell? Discuss.
Are you SURE there is no maximum you can make? Seems like an obvious oversight, if this is the case. Has it been FAQs or Erata'd?
I wish I had my PHB handy! When are they going to make microchips we can install in our brains to allow us to recall pdf's?!
Ahem, not that I own any illegal copies, of course. Just hypotheticaly saying....
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Are you SURE there is no maximum you can make? Seems like an obvious oversight, if this is the case. Has it been FAQs or Erata'd?
Oh, there is a maximum. I believe its somewhere around 12 seeds of the second variety. They deal something like 1d6+caster level in damage EACH though. Caster level caps at 15, I believe. If a 15th level caster throws all 12 seeds at one target, we're talking 12d6 + 180 damage. I wish I had the book in front of me too, but I ran a game recently where someone ran across this idea and it was horrendous.
Notice that it creates MULTIPLE SEEDS PER CASTING. This isn't something that you conjure up in advance and unleash. No no, this is EVERY ROUND you're throwing fiery wads of death at stuff.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I don't have anything much to add, but I'm sure I'll chime in to b#&!@ later. I just wanted to say (1) do a search for the Kyuss threads. One of them talks about using fireseeds to take him out and has a decent discussion of the spell. And (2), here's the text of the spell to facilitate the discussion.
Edit: Just realized that FS is talking about the acorn version. Note that it takes a ranged touch attack to throw, and that means you follow the normal ranged touch attack rules. Just as you can't throw multiple spears in a single attack, so too can you not throw multiple berries.
That being said, a substantial part of the confusion results from the inaccurate description of the spell. You've basically appended the damage portion of the holly berries to the attack form of the acorns. I recommend rereading the spell and reposting the question.
Conjuration (Creation) [Fire]
Level: Drd 6, Fire 6, Sun 6
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: Up to four touched acorns or up to eight touched holly berries
Duration: 10 min./level or until used
Saving Throw: None or Reflex half; see text
Spell Resistance: No
Depending on the version of fire seeds you choose, you turn acorns into splash weapons that you or another character can throw, or you turn holly berries into bombs that you can detonate on command.
Acorn Grenades
As many as four acorns turn into special splash weapons that can be hurled as far as 100 feet. A ranged touch attack roll is required to strike the intended target. Together, the acorns are capable of dealing 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 20d6), divided up among the acorns as you wish.
Each acorn explodes upon striking any hard surface. In addition to its regular fire damage, it deals 1 point of splash damage per die, and it ignites any combustible materials within 10 feet. A creature within this area that makes a successful Reflex saving throw takes only half damage; a creature struck directly is not allowed a saving throw.
Holly Berry Bombs
You turn as many as eight holly berries into special bombs. The holly berries are usually placed by hand, since they are too light to make effective thrown weapons (they can be tossed only 5 feet). If you are within 200 feet and speak a word of command, each berry instantly bursts into flame, causing 1d8 points of fire damage +1 point per caster level to every creature in a 5-foot radius burst and igniting any combustible materials within 5 feet. A creature in the area that makes a successful Reflex saving throw takes only half damage.
Material Component
The acorns or holly berries.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Spell Text
Hmm... by that version, it doesn't look to be a problem. It sounds like I may have accidentally mixed up the two versions.
As for "only throwing one per turn," my arguement was that sure the RULES say you can only throw one ranged weapon per attack but really, these are touch attacks we're talking about here. What is to PREVENT someone from just flinging a handful of them at a Huge or larger creature? Take a handful of rocks sometime and try to hit a house with them from 20 feet away. I guarantee that most of the rocks will hit the house. Now imagine those rocks are EXPLOSIVE. Just because the rules say you can only make one ranged attack doesn't mean that you can't lob handfuls of the things (they're acorn-sized, after all) at a target and expect most of them to hit.
But yeah, seeing the text of the spell written out seems to solve the problem. I must have read it wrong when our warmage started hurling explosive death at everything in sight.
If you wanted to make a house rule allowing for someone to throw multiple items of that size I would say make there a chance that they will accindentally detonate in the character's hand if there are more than 2 or 3.
I see 2 additional arguments against throwing the acorns as a handful:
1) As the acorns are described as 'grenades' that go off once they hit something solid, that'd suggest they're somewhat volatile & should be handled with care. As the gravelly scrape of throwing a handful of rocks will attest too, the missiles would be bumping against each other & could go off a mere foot from your hand (possibly setting off the whole shwack?).
2) Tossing a handful of anything drops a few items nearer than you'd like. Like you said, 'most' would hit the house but a party may not appreciate the spell being used when they're also in the danger zone.
Just a couple thoughts. Also, if it's a normal ranged touch attack, won't the druid be tossing multiple acorns anyways (dependent on BAB)?
J-
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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1) As the acorns are described as 'grenades' that go off once they hit something solid, that'd suggest they're somewhat volatile & should be handled with care. As the gravelly scrape of throwing a handful of rocks will attest too, the missiles would be bumping against each other & could go off a mere foot from your hand (possibly setting off the whole shwack?).
2) Tossing a handful of anything drops a few items nearer than you'd like. Like you said, 'most' would hit the house but a party may not appreciate the spell being used when they're also in the danger zone.
Yeah, I can agree with that. I will probably impose such limitations in the future (especially the chance that the whole shebang will explode in the character's hand). You are correct about the multiple attacks being dependent on BAB but the character using them in our game was a warmage from the Complete Arcane (poor BAB class). The spell appears on that class's spell list as well.
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Let them throw all the acorns at once. Big deal.
Use this example: 20th level caster makes 4 acorns dealing 5d6 apiece and throws them all at once at a single target.
OR
20th level caster makes a single acorn dealing 20d6 damage and throws it at the target.
I don't see the difference.
Bear in mind, the 1d6 per caster level of damage is spread out among the up to 4 acorns. The damage is the same whether the druid makes one big acorn or lots of little ones and throws them all at once.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Let them throw all the acorns at once. Big deal.
Use this example: 20th level caster makes 4 acorns dealing 5d6 apiece and throws them all at once at a single target.
OR
20th level caster makes a single acorn dealing 20d6 damage and throws it at the target.
I don't see the difference.
Yeah, the arguement has been nullified. My error was mistaking the two version and allowing eight holly berry bombs to be thrown for 1d8+16 damage (in our case) each all at the same target with no save (since it was a touch attack). I suck at reading.
8d8 + 128 damage without a save is pretty sick.
More worth worrying about:
A 15th level druid casts the Holly Berry version 4 times, and has a sack with 32 berries in it, which, weighing more than a single berry, can be tossed farther. He tosses the sack at the feet of the bad guy 10 ft. away, speaks the command word, and the bad guy (and anybody within 5 feet) takes 32d8+480 points of damage. SR probably applies, fire resistance applies for each 1d8+15, and I would have the bad guy roll all 32 saves just to see how it turned out, but still. Bang.