Hustle and "Run" while Flying

[Rezdave]

I can't find definitive answers in the core materials or FAQ ...

All creatures have listed a movement rate or "Speed" that is defined as their "tactical" speed. The PHB is pretty clear about how you adjust this for round-by-round or longer period jogging (hustle) or running.

OTOH, there is no discussion anywhere I can find about whether a flying creature can "hustle" or "run".

It seems to me that if the land speed is a "tactical" speed that can be temporarily increased in bursts by expending extra effort and energy, the same should apply to other modes of movement. Otherwise a running human can outpace a flying bat and keep up (for a limited time anyway) with a hawk.

My inclination is to allow swimming and flying creatures the ability to "hustle" and "run" just like their land-locked counterparts, increasing their movement rates for limited durations by expending extra effort. I have doubts about burrowing, but I suppose you could always dig faster or with more effort as well.

Obviously, this would only apply to "natural" forms of movement that are Extraordinary and perhaps Supernatural abilities. Any movement rate granted by spells or spell-like abilities cannot benefit from a hustle or run.

Comments appreciated.

Rez

[Rezdave]

A few facts from the web. All calculations assume that the bird is capable of a "running dive", meaning that its diving speed (DMG p.20 "Double") is in fact a doubling of its "run (x4)" speed. All calculations assume level speed is also a "run (x4)".

A peregrin falcon's ability to dive at 185 mph (wikipedia) should give it a D&D fly speed of 203.5' rather than the 60' of "animal, hawk" or even the 80' of an eagle.

A redhawk can dive at 120mph (nysite) for a fly of 132' or fly level at a maximum 40mph (normally ranging 20-40 in ordinary flight) for a move of 88'.

A bald eagle normally flies 35-44mph (kwic) for a move of 86.9' and "soar" around 50mph (percevia) for a fly of 110', while diving up to 75mph for a speed of 82.5'.

From all of this, it seems pretty clear to me that not only are the D&D fly speeds of hawks and eagles too low, but that the birds can "run-fly". Furthermore, hawks should have a bonus "Improved Dive" Feat.

R.

[Tsulis]

I'm not really a rules guy but I was just reading somewhere that while flying you can charge but not run.It might have been in the fly spell, or in the DMG fly rules.

[Colin McKinney]

Rezdave wrote:

A peregrin falcon's ability to dive at 185 mph (wikipedia) should give it a D&D fly speed of 203.5' rather than the 60' of "animal, hawk" or even the 80' of an eagle.

I have issues with saying something's max fly speed should be based off of the real-world animal's dive speed, "dive" being a fancy word for "falling." If the bird could flap its wings really hard and, in level flight, crank up to 185 mph, no problem. That's fast. However, if it's "flight" speed is due to tucking its wings and falling, then you also need to assign a Fly speed to humans, tortoises and water buffaloes if you push them off a cliff.

[Rezdave]

Colin McKinney wrote:

... saying something's max fly speed should be based off of the real-world animal's dive speed, "dive" being a fancy word for "falling" ... if it's "flight" speed is due to tucking its wings and falling, then you also need to assign a Fly speed to humans, tortoises and water buffaloes if you push them off a cliff.

I agree with your points. I'm doing the best I can with the D&D mechanics. Since the DMG (p.20) doesn't distinguish between "dive" and "descend" I simply calculated it as "double" though I did suggest an "Improved Dive" Feat that goes to quad. Even this still gives a hawk a move of 100' rather than 60'.

FWIW, the "dive" speed of a trained human skydiver seems to be 270mph in the "wings tucked" position ... you know ... the one used by the hero when a villain has just jumped from the burning plane with the last parachute and the hero needs to speed down through the air and wrestle it away from him like in a James Bond movie, Point Break or whatever :-)

Still, my point is that the movement rates in the MM are 20-25% low for the real-world "max." speed of many of these birds even if you calculate them as having a "Run x4" speed, and over 100% too slow without.

The eagle calculates accurately with a D&D "run-dive" while hawks and falcons seem to need a bonus "Improved Dive" feat that allows them to quadruple their speed in a controlled descent.

In other words, any creature with a natural Fly, Swim or perhaps even Burrow speed should be allowed to "Run" IMHO just like walking creatures. The fact that spells like master air specifically state that you cannot run but only double-move (since it allows a charge) also seems to support this.

Just wanted to know if someone's read anything official, but I think I already know where my game is headed.

Rez