Delayed Actions Problem


Dungeon Magazine General Discussion


Is it right that players (or the DM) can use the delay action mechanism to move themselves higher up the initiative order in the next turn?

They get a low initiative roll, delay their action in round 1 and then jump in at the top of the order in round 2 and this then becomes their place in the initiative order for the rest of the encounter.

It does not seem right to me that the change is permananent but the rules seem to support this interpretation. Or am I missing some other restriction elsewhere in the rules?


Keep in mind that they are sacrificing their action in round 1 to do so. This can be very costly, since one round represents a chunk of most combats: 5-25% of your actions in any given combat in my experience.

This rule has always seemed sensible and fair to me, but I am a patent weirdo, so don't go by my word *g*.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Since initiative is cyclic in 3rd edition... it only really matters during the surprise round or during the 1st round of combat, really. After that, delaying to the start of the round may offer some tactical advantages, but at the cost of not taking an action when you were earlier entitled to do so. Going "first" in round 2 or thereafter doesn't really mean much.


Right. There is very little to no advantage to "refocus" and move your initiative count to the top. All you're doing is wasting time, literally.

Think of it - instead of taking their turn to move and act, the character is standing there with their mouth open catching flies until initiative order resets.

If the order was:

Jim
Bob
Lisa
Tom
Greg

and Tom decided to refocus, then the first two rounds of combat would be

Jim, Bob, Lisa, Greg, Tom, Jim, Bob, Lisa, Greg

rather than:

Jim, Bob, Lisa, Tom, Greg, Jim, Bob, Lisa, Tom, Greg...

Another way of looking at it: Refocusing moves you to the BOTTOM of initiative order. Since initiative is cyclic, as mentioned above, there's no difference between being at the top and bottom (again, after the first round).


Please, also be aware of the difference between the "refocus" and the "delay" action. Refocus means doing nothing and acting later (thus improving your initiative). Delay lets you wait for something (interrupting a caster, shooting everyone who comes through the door, wait until your comrad takes a hit and then heal him etc.) Thus with a delay action you may quite well end up at a lower initiative count. Hope my explanation makes the difference clear.
A little bit on that point: if you delay your action, what can you do when the conditions occurs you set. Can you still take a fullround action or a standard and move action or only a partial action?


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If you "Ready" an action, you specify a trigger ("When Bob's character gets attacked" or "When the bad guy tries to cast a spell") and a standard action OR move action interrupt ("I attack the guy who's about to attack Bob" or "I try ro Counterspell") - your Readied action happens before the triggering action completes, it can't be a full round action, and your new initiative is just before the guy who triggered it.

If you "Delay", you aren't required to specify a defined trigger (although for convenience you can say "I delay til after Bob's turn); instead, you can decide at any point that you're ready to take your action, but this resets your initiative to just AFTER whoever is currently acting. Thus, you can delay til the enemy runs up to attack you, but the enemy's attack is resolved before you get to take your action, and then your initiative count in subsequent rounds is just after that enemy's initiative count.


Belfur wrote:

Please, also be aware of the difference between the "refocus" and the "delay" action. Refocus means doing nothing and acting later (thus improving your initiative). Delay lets you wait for something (interrupting a caster, shooting everyone who comes through the door, wait until your comrad takes a hit and then heal him etc.) Thus with a delay action you may quite well end up at a lower initiative count. Hope my explanation makes the difference clear.

A little bit on that point: if you delay your action, what can you do when the conditions occurs you set. Can you still take a fullround action or a standard and move action or only a partial action?

From what I understand you are talking Delay (saving your turn for later) and Readying (Using a Standard Action to interrupt someone later). Both move your initiative semi-permanently (you could always delay or ready again on subsequent rounds) but if you ready, specific conditions must be met and you are allowed only a partial, ie: move or standard action (casting a spell, making a single attack, moving behind cover etc) plus your initiative moves immediately ahead of the creature against whom you were readying. When you delay your initiative you may take a turn as normal, just later, although as I understand it, you must specify what your new inititative will be when you delay.

Example One: Fighting Orcs, Bob rolls high (20)in initiative, but in round three he finds himself wounded and in need of healing. He delays until Jim the Cleric can move to him and cast a healing spell on 12. On 11, Bob re-enters the fray with full hit points and a full action. If the Orcs go after him he is in good shape, however, if the enemy goes between his previous initiative and his new inititative, he has sacrificed initiative to do so.

Example Two: Fighting Orcs, Bob rolls high on inititative, but finds himself wounded by the second or third round. He must get back to where Jim the Cleric is taking cover, but doesn't want to sacrifice his attack for the round. On 20, he moves 20 feet and readies vs. approach. Jim goes on 12, moving to meet Bob and heals him. The Orcs go on 10, moving to engage Bob, at which point, Bob's readied action "goes off" and he gets an attack at the first Orc to be within reach. This moves his action to 11, so on the subsequent round he goes before the Orcs again, thanks to quick thinking.


*blush* Wanted to look smart and now...


Belfur wrote:

*blush* Wanted to look smart and now...

Eh, it's all right. They've changed the rules a few times on us now. Heck, in 2nd edition (and previous, of course) we didn't even have attacks of opportunity... And we liked it! :-)

Now we have characters whose sole design is to capitalize on this hitherto unknown element.


ZeroCharisma wrote:
Example Two: ... SNIP ... On 20, he moves 20 feet and readies vs. approach. Jim goes on 12, moving to meet Bob and heals him. The Orcs go on 10, moving to engage Bob, at which point, Bob's readied action "goes off" and he gets an attack at the first Orc to be within reach. This moves his action to 11, so on the subsequent round he goes before the Orcs again, thanks to quick thinking.

I think this example would be better if the Orcs go on 12 and Cleric Jim goes on 10, particularly assuming Bob is currently 5' back from engaging any orc and better yet that they are approaching him down a hallway or he is guarding a doorway.

In this case, Bob might stand his ground, Ready an Action to bash the first orc that closes and tries to tag him in melee (hoping to drop that individual) and then back off the 20' after ideally removing any AoO risk. His goal is to prevent them from using their actions to engage him at range, so tagging one orc pre-emptively in melee then retreating minimizes this risk (particularly if they are coming through a doorway or are otherwise restricted in their approach to him).

In the quoted example, I believe his Initiative moves to "10+" rather than 11, since there might be other characters who legitimately have 11. Basically, he acts on the same initiative number as the initiating action/individual (the orcs at 10 in the Quoted example, or 12 in my variant) but immediately before them as if they had both rolled the same bonus-adjusted initiative but Bob had the higher Dex. score and so acted momentarily before.

As a caveat, I'd allow Bob to engage the "back up 20 ft." of his Readied Action at any time as if Delaying in the event the orcs choose not to advance (though maybe he'd need a DC 15 Wisdom check to "adapt to changing circumstances"). In this case, since he had planned to attack then retreat, he is effectively Delaying the movement but still holds his attack Ready. That way if the orcs do not immediately move to attack on their initiative he can act after them with his movement, but still hold his potential attack, though not change it to another action.

Note that if Initiative falls all the way to 10 and it's now Cleric Jim's turn, then since the Delay means Bob acts [i[]after[i/] Jim then the Cleric must either Delay or Ready his healing and await Bob's movement, or else choose to advance himself into the upcoming fray.

In the event the orcs don't advance into melee on 12 but draw throwing knives or bows and Ready for Bob to fall back in order to shoot him, you can see how quickly the situation can get mechanically complicated in preempts or turn into a Mexican Stand-off.

Rez


Rezdave wrote:
ZeroCharisma wrote:
Example Two: ... SNIP ... On 20, he moves 20 feet and readies vs. approach. Jim goes on 12, moving to meet Bob and heals him. The Orcs go on 10, moving to engage Bob, at which point, Bob's readied action "goes off" and he gets an attack at the first Orc to be within reach. This moves his action to 11, so on the subsequent round he goes before the Orcs again, thanks to quick thinking.

I think this example would be better if the Orcs go on 12 and Cleric Jim goes on 10, particularly assuming Bob is currently 5' back from engaging any orc and better yet that they are approaching him down a hallway or he is guarding a doorway.

In this case, Bob might stand his ground, Ready an Action to bash the first orc that closes and tries to tag him in melee (hoping to drop that individual) and then back off the 20' after ideally removing any AoO risk. His goal is to prevent them from using their actions to engage him at range, so tagging one orc pre-emptively in melee then retreating minimizes this risk (particularly if they are coming through a doorway or are otherwise restricted in their approach to him).

In the quoted example, I believe his Initiative moves to "10+" rather than 11, since there might be other characters who legitimately have 11. Basically, he acts on the same initiative number as the initiating action/individual (the orcs at 10 in the Quoted example, or 12 in my variant) but immediately before them as if they had both rolled the same bonus-adjusted initiative but Bob had the higher Dex. score and so acted momentarily before.

As a caveat, I'd allow Bob to engage the "back up 20 ft." of his Readied Action at any time as if Delaying in the event the orcs choose not to advance (though maybe he'd need a DC 15 Wisdom check to "adapt to changing circumstances"). In this case, since he had planned to attack then retreat, he is effectively Delaying the movement but still holds his attack Ready. That way if the orcs do not immediately move to attack on their...

I did not solicit a patronizing lesson in tactics, I was merely using an artificial situation to illustrate a basic concept.

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