I have always offered the players in my campaign the opportunity to custom-create new and interesting spells tailored to their PC's. I think it's fun, fairly easy and generally harmless. i have found that after a while players get really good at it and it adds a lot of depth to the campaign.
My current group has resisted it until now, when I suddenly have received a minor flood of submissions from players. Among them I have two I wanted to solicit some advice from y'all about. The first is more polished and finished (and fairly powerful- is it too huge?), the second is more of a concept.
So please read these and let me know what you think. I would love advice, criticism, and just generally a perspective that is not mine. I find that all too often I am so glad that a player is showing initiative by creating a spell that I tend to be too quick to approve.
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Spell I:
Degenerating Portal
Evocation [Dust]
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100ft. + 10 ft./level)
Effect: One 5' diameter portal
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Reflex half
Spell Resistance: Yes
A swirling, transluscent vortex appears and vanishes at your command,
engulfing your
foes and reducing them to a fine powder.
A partial gateway to the quasi-elemental plane of dust appears in the
square
you designate,
doing 1d6 damage per level (15d6 max) to anything
within it at the
end of your turn. Any creature entering or passing through the space
occupied by the portal
also takes damage, although never more than once on any given round.
Any
creature reduced
to 0 HP or less is disintegrated entirely, leaving behind only a trace
of
fine dust. The
disintegrated creature's equipment is unaffected. Each round as a
standard
action,
you may concentrate on the portal to maintain its existence and
relocate
it to a different square within range. The portal does damage at the
end of
your turn
each round, but vanishes on any round you neglect to do so. This ends
the
spell.
Because of the spell's connection to the Negative Elemental Plane, the
Energy Substitution
and Energy Admixture feats interact differently with the portal.
Energy Substitution [Cold] opens a portal to the quasi-elemental plane
of
salt.
Creatures caught in this portal take dessication damage. Water and
plant
creatures
take 1d8 damage per caster level instead of 1d6.
Energy Substitution [Electricity] opens a portal to the quasi-elemental
plane of vacuum.
Air-breathing creatures in this portal take non-lethal damage each
round
from suffocation.
Creatures that fall unconscious begin suffocating in earnest, as if
drowning. Additionally,
a 20'r Gust of Wind effect is created, with the air blowing toward the
portal.
Energy Substitution [Fire] opens a portal to the quasi-elemental plane
of
ash. Creatures
caught in the portal take [cold] damage.
The Energy Substitition [Acid] does not alter this spell. It would
open a
portal to the
quasi-elemental plane of dust, which is the default.
Spells which resist or absorb energy damage may resist or absorb damage
from
a Degenerate
Portal if they are specifically tuned to the portal's quasi-elemental
plane.
*********
Spell II: (unfinished)
Concept: Negative Energy Prismatic Spray
School: Necromancy
Level Death 6, Cleric 7
Effect: A monochromatic spray of variegated and mottled dark patterns shoots forth. A creature hit by the rays must roll randomly and determine which effect they are subject to:
1-Strength Damage
2-Dex Damage
3-Con Damage
4-Wis & Cha (or any combo of two of the non-physical attributes) Damage
5- Fatigued + ??
6- Exhausted
7- Vampiric Drain (bestows hp on caster)
8- roll twice ignoring "8"'s
I need some help with this one, as the player who came up with the concept has a harder time organizing his thoughts than the player who came up with Spell I. What should the saves be? Are there better effects to put in as options? What should we call it? Any help and input would be greatly appreciated. I know they are both fairly powerful spells, but Ball Lightning blows Degenerating Portal out of the water, and the Cleric/Death spell seems so flavorful and rich that I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't work within the game.
I feel the first should maybe have a costly material component, and the second should have some sort of cost as well... Any thoughts in this regard would especially be appreciated. I have not approved either spell completely yet, and am especially wary of the first...
I look forward to reading the responses & advice here and hope you find these Player ideas as interesting and entertaining as I do...
I apologize for the sloppy formatting of the first spell above. I cut and pasted it from the player's email, and I didn't realize bracketed text would be read as formatting by the site and that the text would be broken up like that.
Furthermore, when I went to hit "preview" I hit post instead. Then, I thought the site had swallowed my post, so I said, forget it, I won't bother with it, as it was a long post. I can't edit it anymore, so I think you can muddle through and figure out the energy substitution stuff and I apologize for the messiness of the formatting.
Thanks,
Syl
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As I read the first spell, it seems far too powerful for a 5th level spell. It allows a caster to do (Level)d6 each round for (Level) rounds. At minimum level (9th), this is a total of 81d6. More, it can be retargeted if the original target is killed before the duration elapses. This seems far more powerful than Cone of Cold (for instance) and is arguably comparable to Meteor Swarm. It is also more powerful than Ball Lightning, which can only move in a line each turn, is stopped by a creature or obstacle, and is limited to 30' of movement per round. (Ball Lightning is also possibly overpowered for its level.)
Suggested modification: The portal takes a full round to fully manifest, which allows anyone in the targetted area to move out before being affected. If you move the area of effect, the portal again takes a full round to fully manifest.
Also, it seems more like a Conjuration spell than an Evocation spell, but that arguably makes it significantly more powerful, so I don't know that I'd make that change.
On the second spell, I'd consider swapping out some of the characteristic damage with "Nauseated", or "Panicked", or possibly "Dazed".
On the save, I could see several possibilities: Reflex to get out of the way of the spell, Will to prevent mental effects, or Fortitude to prevent physical effects. Depending on the power, I might allow a Reflex to negate and a Fortitude or Will to ameliorate if the Reflex fails. That might be too much of a nerf, though.
Type: Any spell opening a portal to another plane (cf. gate, plane shift, etc.) should be conjuration.
In this case, you've got a 15d6 damage cap; most 1d6/level spells either allow a save (usu. Ref 1/2), or else require an attack roll (orb of...). In this case, a save seems applicable. However, spells that affect an area in which there may or may not be a creature (as opposed to targeting a creature) typically allow a Reflex save to move out of that square and avoid all damage (cf. wall of...); that seems appropriate in this case as well.
Now for the spell level: you're dealing damage that is not subject to resist elements, so a level bump is probably in order; I'd make it 6th level, or else reduce the cap to 10d6 and make it 4th (or reduce the dice to d4's and keep it 5th).
HOWEVER, I'd also consider the 1 rd./lvl. If the portal were stationary, I'd say no adjustment, but in this case you can move it, so on first impression I'd say maybe bump the level by +1 again. But then again, you can only target 1 small or medium creature/round, so maybe a bump isn't needed.
I'd probably go for 1d6/lvl (d4's are a pain to roll), make it 6th level, allow a Ref save to avoid the square, and maybe Fort half if you're held, immobilized, or stupid enough to walk through it.
But then again, you can only target 1 small or medium creature/round, so maybe a bump isn't needed.
Actually, this spell can target 4 squares - area spells are targeted on corners. Plus, a creature does not need to be wholely surrounded by a magical effect to be hit with it. A Colossal creature that's standing 10 feet within the area of a fireball takes as much damage as the Diminutive creature in the center.
I'd agree that spell one aught to be a Conjuration, since you summon a portal. Running 1d6 damage per caster level per round, that's a lot of damage. I'd probably reduce the damage; cast this spell once at the start of a combat and most enemies start dropping like flies.
I think halving damage is not really unfair for a spell that continues dealing damage; Flaming Sphere only does 2d6 compared to the 4d6 of a Scorching Ray, and a Wall of Fire at 4th level only deals 2d4 (or 2d6+level) damage per round.
Setting a fifth level spell at 1d6/level (which is generally max for any area spell; and although the area is small, it's still an area) might be a bit much.
Also, a Gust of Wind moving towards a highly lethal portal is also fairly powerful. Image a swarm of flying creatures, like a Hellwasp Swarm. It'd be almost instantly sucked into the portal and torn apart...
Same goes for pixie's and other small flying creatures that are affected by a Gust of Wind. Also, the fact that it can't be prevented by spells such as Resist Energy is a good point.
My advice, reduce the damage to 1d6/two levels (max 10d6) and then up it to 6th level. Max unpreventable damage in an area every round is quite a good spell, and it has an added customizability in it for even more power...
As for spell two; I find the concept a bit strange. How can you have a prismatic ray, if it's black? Maybe work on that a bit, change the name or possibly the entire concept.
For stats; an ability penalty is probably a better idea; maybe set in a duration of a minute/level or something?
Something akin to the Ray of Enfeeblement, only with a random attribute, longer duration and a higher penalty.
As for spell two; I find the concept a bit strange. How can you have a prismatic ray, if it's black? Maybe work on that a bit, change the name or possibly the entire concept.
For stats; an ability penalty is probably a better idea; maybe set in a duration of a minute/level or something?
Something akin to the Ray of Enfeeblement, only with a random attribute, longer duration and a higher penalty.
Yes, the "Prismatic" part was just part of the basic concept (equating it to a Prismatic Spray which has multiple effects as this spell does), it has little bearing on the final spell, I was picturing a shadowy cone-shaped cloud with different textures and/or blood red veins running through it. I agree on penalties to abilities rather than damage. I have a hard time keeping track of the difference at times. I think you may have hit on the exact way to codify it: random attribute penalty (2d4+1 per caster level perhaps) for i rd/level of caster (Fort Save) or one or more of the following effects: fatigued (Fort), dazed (Will), exhausted (Fort) or Slowed (Ref), Spell Resistance Applies.
I see that Degenerating portal is slightly overpowered, and it is based off of an already overpowered spell which I was already leaning towards disallowing (Ball Lightning). I appreciate all the advice and will work with the player to figure out a way to ameliorate it. Perhaps 1d6 every 2 levels to a cap of 10d6 per round would be more appropriate considering the mobility and area. It should certainly take a full round to refocus and move the portal in any case. I will see what I can do. I have had little time to review these spells owing to a hectic work session and we play tonight, so I doubt it will see playtime tonight anyway. I have had a nagging feeling that it should be a higher level spell because it is essentially a portable and reusable disintigrate spell with less damage dice.
As I read the first spell, it seems far too powerful for a 5th level spell. It allows a caster to do (Level)d6 each round for (Level) rounds. At minimum level (9th), this is a total of 81d6. More, it can be retargeted if the original target is killed before the duration elapses. This seems far more powerful than Cone of Cold (for instance) and is arguably comparable to Meteor Swarm. It is also more powerful than Ball Lightning, which can only move in a line each turn, is stopped by a creature or obstacle, and is limited to 30' of movement per round. (Ball Lightning is also possibly overpowered for its level.)
Suggested modification: The portal takes a full round to fully manifest, which allows anyone in the targetted area to move out before being affected. If you move the area of effect, the portal again takes a full round to fully manifest.
Also, it seems more like a Conjuration spell than an Evocation spell, but that arguably makes it significantly more powerful, so I don't know that I'd make that change.
On the second spell, I'd consider swapping out some of the characteristic damage with "Nauseated", or "Panicked", or possibly "Dazed".
On the save, I could see several possibilities: Reflex to get out of the way of the spell, Will to prevent mental effects, or Fortitude to prevent physical effects. Depending on the power, I might allow a Reflex to negate and a Fortitude or Will to ameliorate if the Reflex fails. That might be too much of a nerf, though.
Thanks for the good advice, Doug. I think the problem with the second spell, is less one of power than of complexity, but I agree that saves should apply. I like the Nauseated and Panicked as options perhaps best for the non-ability-penalty ones.
I think keep the casting time as a standard, but concentration and refocusing the portal should be a full round action. Perhaps the portal should also be limited in its mobility, but maybe this can be accomplished by changing the range to close?
I agree on the conjuration/evocation thing, but am also leery to change it for the reason you stated. Anyway, thanks again!
Sorry, I almost feel like I am spamming, but I am just catching up. I am thinking something like these changes and a shift to dual school spells as per the PH2:
Degenerating Portal
Evocation/Conjuration
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 5
Components: V, S, M (a gem of at least 500 gp value matching the color of the quasi-elemental plane you are dealing with, in the case of the base spell, grey or smoky)
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close(25 feet plus 5 feet per 2 caster levels)
Effect: One 5' portal, fully occupying one square.
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 round/level
Saving Throw: Reflex partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (against the damage)
A swirling, transluscent vortex appears, subject to your whims, bursting forth with planar energy at regular intervals.
A partial gateway to the quasi-elemental plane of dust appears in the square you designate, doing 3d6 plus 1d6 per three caster levels (10d6 max) to anything within it at the end of your turn. In addition, a creature exposed to the dusty, dessicating atmosphere of the quasi-elemental plane (one who fails their reflex save) is slowed for one round (no Save). Any creature entering or passing through the space occupied by the portal also becomes slowed for one round, although they do not take the damage, and no ill effects can affect one creature more than once on any given round.
Any creature reduced to 0 HP or less is disintegrated entirely, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. The disintegrated creature's equipment is unaffected. Each round as a full-round action, you must concentrate on the portal to maintain its existence and relocate it to a different square within range.
The portal does damage at the end of your turn
each round you maintain concentration, but vanishes on any round you neglect to do so. This ends the spell.
The target recieves a Reflex Saving throw (for half damage) each time they are exposed to damage from the portal, but may only make one saving throw against any other deleterious effects caused by the spell which allow saves, such as the winds created by the Energy Substitution version (see above)
*******
For each energy substitution version, add a negative effect in addition to damage to reflect the conjuration aspect.
Am I just further overcomplicating this spell? Idano. New spells take time, so I am confident we will figure it out given time. Otherwise, a session of testing with the spell should help see how it functions outside of the hangar.
I don't have much to add on the disintegrate-portal thing, but I've got a better name for your prismatic necromancy:
Chaotic Corruption
That's nigh on brilliant, Fatespinner. I will run it by the player of Haji, Cleric of Death and Destruction and see if he likes it as much as I do.
I would go back to 1d6 damage/2 caster levels, and make the duration 1 round/2 caster levels. Otherwise, I would personally leave it as originally written (maybe keeping the expensive gem component).
Consider that, in order to get the gust of wind effect, one has to apply the Energy Substitution feat. In the case that someone does this particular tactic, I don't see the ability to easily destroy many small flying creatures to be too much of a trouble. Hellwasp swarms and pixies are much lower CR than the caster who would be using this spell, and there aren't very many high CR flying foes that are "small" (not used in game terms this time). It's simply a good tactic for a very specific circumstance.
Also consider that the damage is broken up over rounds, and most combats don't last long enough to realize the full potential of this spell (the other party members would go ahead and kill the foes with or without Mr. McNasty Portal).
Also consider that it takes concentration each round to maintain the spell. You've giving up all other spellcasting to utilize this one spell. I'd put a limit of moving the thing 50 feet per round, but more than that, and you're asking too much of the caster.
And, while it does duplicate the effects of disintigrate on a creature reduced to 0 hp, it does significantly less damage than that spell. Actually, if reduced to 1d6/2 caster levels (which I recommend, that caps it at 10d6 at 20th level for non-epic play), it deals 1/4 the damage of disintigrate. Also, reducing it to 1 round/2 caster levels halves the maximum possible damage once more, although it leaves the duration long enough that it won't come into play on most combats.
So, make those changes to duration, damage, and make sure it's conjuration, and I think you're good to go. Now that I've written my full say on the matter and reviewed it, I have to say that I don't even think the expensive gem is necessary.
I can't help so much on the second one, since it seems so nebulous at the moment. However, I do think that an ability penalty of 2d4 + 1/caster level is too high. Try 1d4 + 1/2 caster levels. If it's a 7th level spell, like you have written now, that's still 7-10 points off an ability score, maxing out at 20th with 11-14 points off an ability. If that hits a wizard and deals Strength damage or a fighter and deals Charisma or Intelligence damage, there's a good chance of completely removing them from a combat with just one spell. That's pretty powerful.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Because I like to be contrary, I'm going to say that it's not overpowered doing 1d6 damage per level. I would probably tack on a movement element like ball lightning, but the fact that the caster has to concentrate to maintain the spell is a significant limitation. Most fights last 3-5 rounds, and a 9th level caster is more than capable of dishing out leveld6 damage each round of such fight. It's not as if it changes the caster's effectiveness in the battle, it just means he can cast more spells in the day because instead of casting 3 fireballs (or some other appropriate 4th level spell with a 15 dice cap), he cast 1 5th level spell. It also encourages other combatants to target the caster in order to short circuit the spell, so it's not as if the targets can't deal with the problem.
(These arguments based on the maximum damage something could do always baffle me. By that reasoning, a spell that does 1 point of damage for an infinite amount of time would be completely off the scale because it could (theoretically) do infinite damage. I suppose that if your combats last an infinite number of turns, that might be a problem, but realisticaly, such a spell will do 3-5 damage.)
If any change is necessary, it's probably to make the spell more like flaming sphere, where it only effects one target at a time. The multiple targeting thing bothers me much more than the amount of damage over time.
I agree with the comments re: conjuration, but would probably make it a higher level spell if it were pure conjuration. That's mostly a flavor issue on my part - I don't think conjuration should do as much damage as evocation at any given spell level.
Dealing low damage over long time is not overpowered in most combat, but it does depend on the situation. I've seen Warlocks use their Eldritch Blast to cut away rock formations or even fortifications. All it needs is the time to destroy something properly.
Also, not all battles last for only a few rounds. It depends on the enemies, but I've had battles that can run for an easy 20/30 rounds (which only goes on fast players, of course. the '10 seconds to decide' rule is a pre for those)
During such a combat, a spellcaster would burn up some 3 spells, and still dish out d6/level damage each turn.
If he tried such on Fireballs, he'd burn up his entire repetoire and then some.
Also, this spell gives a Wizard or Sorceror the option of buffing everyone, all the time, and still have spells left to dish out some damage every round of the combat.
On its own, in a single combat, with spells a plenty, it's not that overpowered. But when each spell matters; it becomes real powerful, real quick.
truly appreciate these boards. This level of empassioned, intelligent, multifaceted comment really enhances my ability to do my job as a DM and helps immensely because I like to have different points of view. With this help, I might be able to grant the player the ability to use the spell tonight, and see it in action later. Tonight the PC's are entering a mysterious tomb and the session will be very combat-heavy. I have come to believe that, as written by the player, it should be a sixth level spell, with only very minor changes.
Saern and Sebastian's arguments are as compelling as earlier comments and I have to be inclined to think that with a few tweaks, a workable 5th level spell could be made that everyone could agree on. I decided to omit the quasielemental stuff except with Energy Substitution, which should only function if the portal is doing elemental damage, not disintegration damage. Something Like:
Elemental Portal
Conjuration/Evocation
Level: Sorcerer/Wizard 5
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 feet + 5 feet per two levels)
Effect: One 5' diameter portal with a 5' radius emanation
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 rd + 1 round/ 2levels
Saving Throw: Special
Spell Resistance: Yes vs. Energy Damage
The spell calls into being a portal to an elemental plane which emanates pulses of energy of a specific type around it.
As above, the spell can be moved by concentrating on it for a full round action (closing it in one spot, opening in another location within range), otherwise maintaining the portal is a standard action. The portal can be easily avoided by other creatures outside the area of effect, and a reflex save is granted against each "pulse" of energy. In addition, as follows each planar type applies a different type of debilitating effect. The planar type is decided at the time of casting and cannot be changed.
Fire: Pyrokinetic Bursts: 1d8 Fire damage per caster level (Reflex Save Negates) and Dazzled for 1 rd(no Save)
Earth: Gouts of Acid: 1d4 Acid Damage per caster level (no Save) and Nauseated (Fort Save)for 1d4 rds
Air: WIndstorm: 1d6 Electrical Damage per level (Reflex Save for half) and Vortex: all small or smaller creatures are pulled towards the Portal (DC 20 Strength or Dex Check Negates) and immobilized if they are caught in the area of the spell.
Water: Freezing Rain :1d6 Cold Damage (Reflex Save Half) and Fatigued (no Save)in addition, area around portal becomes icy for 1 rd, requiring DC 15 balance checks for full movement.
Elemental Substitution would have similar effects as written in the original spell description, but must be cast on a version of the spell as decided when casting. This I still have to play with, but I think this might be more reasonable.
What do you guys think? I will post more on the Chaotic Corruption spell when the player gives me more info.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Also, not all battles last for only a few rounds. It depends on the enemies, but I've had battles that can run for an easy 20/30 rounds (which only goes on fast players, of course. the '10 seconds to decide' rule is a pre for those)
During such a combat, a spellcaster would burn up some 3 spells, and still dish out d6/level damage each turn.
There was a whole other thread about how long battles last, and the consensus there (as it is when you ask the designers, take a look at how abilties are designed, etc) is that most combats last 3-5 rounds. All combats? No, certainly not, but the vast majority last 3-5 rounds. If your combats are lasting 20/30 rounds, you're doing something very different from the vast majority of campaigns out there. In my personal experience, since 3.0 came out, maybe 5% of combats lasted more than 10 rounds, and I think maybe one combat lasted over 20 rounds (and I stress the maybe).
Again, looking at the unlikely corner cases is not a very good way to analzye the power of an ability. A fight lasting more than 20 rounds is practically the definition of a corner case.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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truly appreciate these boards. This level of empassioned, intelligent, multifaceted comment really enhances my ability to do my job as a DM and helps immensely because I like to have different points of view. With this help, I might be able to grant the player the ability to use the spell tonight, and see it in action later. Tonight the PC's are entering a mysterious tomb and the session will be very combat-heavy. I have come to believe that, as written by the player, it should be a sixth level spell, with only very minor changes.
I like the thought behind the different damage dice, but don't think the effects mesh well with that thought. Balancing different die types adds an unnecessary level of complexity, as does varying the secondary effect. As written, the fire and wind versions of this spell are vastly superior to the earth and water versions. I would keep the die as a d6 and base any secondary effects off the various orb spells. If you want to make multiple dice types, they should definitely be different spells or a higher level spell. The ability to choose modes of damage (particularly elemental modes) is a significant ability and increases the power of the spell quite a bit (particularly for sorcerers).
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Fire: Pyrokinetic Bursts: 1d8 Fire damage per caster level (Reflex Save Negates) and Dazzled for 1 rd(no Save)
Earth: Gouts of Acid: 1d4 Acid Damage per caster level (no Save) and Nauseated (Fort Save)for 1d4 rds
Air: WIndstorm: 1d6 Electrical Damage per level (Reflex Save for half) and Vortex: all small or smaller creatures are pulled towards the Portal (DC 20 Strength or Dex Check Negates) and immobilized if they are caught in the area of the spell.
Water: Freezing Rain :1d6 Cold Damage (Reflex Save Half) and Fatigued (no Save)in addition, area around portal becomes icy for 1 rd, requiring DC 15 balance checks for full movement.
One problem, specifically with the 'Water' version: An area-effect spell that bestows fatigue with no save is overpowered. Even if it were 9th level, it should allow a save. Fatigue is nasty. Fatigue can CRIPPLE most foes. Even spells like touch of fatigue or ray of exhaustion allows a save and they only hit one target (the 'waves of...' spells are much higher level and STILL allow saves). Consider allowing a save on this or, instead of fatigue, make it cause creatures in the area to suffer a -4 Dex penalty for 1 rd/CL with no save.
I largely agree with Sebastian (*Gasp* Concerning magic? Say it ain't so!), and I much prefer the first spell description and the fluff about adding Energy Substitution, as opposed to the inherent option of choosing the energy type. If it were going to be that, the best thing to do would just have it do a d6 of damage and simply change the energy type, but that's boring.
If the player really wants to come up with many, many spells of different types themed around this energy portal idea, I say do just that- come up with a list of different spells keyed off each other, like most of the various fog spells are. And don't worry to much about balancing them against each other. Like with the fog or image spells, the best would be to make a progression of power-levels, rather than attempting to foce them into "balance."
The more I think about it, the less I like the movement limitations. I'd prefer it if it the caster could move the sphere up to 50 feet per round as a move action, rather than concentrating for a full round to get it to move. Seems to me that it's way too slow, and considering how much the caster is already being asked to give up to maintain this thing, I foresee enemies just dancing around it to the mage's endless frustration.
And, the more I think about it, the more I agree that the spell doing a d6/level is fine. I think the duration should still be 1 round/2 levels, but again, considering what you're asking the caster to give up (a d6/level cone of cold or fireball each round with greater actual utility in my mind), doing "standard" damage seems appropriate to me.
Again, like Sebastian said, the enemies are likely to see the wizard using this portal thing and attack him, forcing concentration checks and potentially mucking everything up, so it's not like the spell is somehow unbeatable.
Regarding the length of combats, I will also back up the statement that most are 3-5 rounds in length. I've expereienced super-combats, even one that went on 30 rounds, actually. But in every case, they was the result of a lull in combat during an encounter, but remaining in a situation that needed tracking by rounds (cat-and-mouse maneuvers, running from persistent foes, etc.) or the party having to kill lots and lots of little enemies and lacking the proper area spells to do the job.
And, as a matter of personal taste, I don't mind certain elements of the game being overwhelmingly better tactics in particular fringe areas, relative to others. If everything is balanced compared to everything else, in every situation, that's just boring and strains versisimilitude, in my mind. It also certainly doesn't encourage player creativity. Take the hellwasp swarm example above. When used against such a foe, but only in conjunction with Energy Substitution (air) to tap into the paraelemental plane of vacuum, this spell is near unstoppable.
So what? Unless you designed a whole campaign around fighting hellwasp swarms (which is just stupid), I doubt it will be a big deal.
But seriously, Sebastian, we need to stop seeing eye-to-eye like this. It's kinda creepy.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But seriously, Sebastian, we need to stop seeing eye-to-eye like this. It's kinda creepy.
You're telling me - did you see that I spoke up about conjuration spells doing damage? I also find that Fake Healer is agreeming with me more and more these days. I'm starting to wonder if you two got replaced by dopplegangers when we raided Heathannson's den a few months ago.
Also, not all battles last for only a few rounds. It depends on the enemies, but I've had battles that can run for an easy 20/30 rounds (which only goes on fast players, of course. the '10 seconds to decide' rule is a pre for those)
During such a combat, a spellcaster would burn up some 3 spells, and still dish out d6/level damage each turn.
There was a whole other thread about how long battles last, and the consensus there (as it is when you ask the designers, take a look at how abilties are designed, etc) is that most combats last 3-5 rounds. All combats? No, certainly not, but the vast majority last 3-5 rounds. If your combats are lasting 20/30 rounds, you're doing something very different from the vast majority of campaigns out there. In my personal experience, since 3.0 came out, maybe 5% of combats lasted more than 10 rounds, and I think maybe one combat lasted over 20 rounds (and I stress the maybe).
Again, looking at the unlikely corner cases is not a very good way to analzye the power of an ability. A fight lasting more than 20 rounds is practically the definition of a corner case.
Ah. Didn't know that :)
If most of your fights last for 3-5 rounds then indeed, this spell is not that bad. Guess I'm a bit of a border-case DM then...
You're telling me - did you see that I spoke up about conjuration spells doing damage? I also find that Fake Healer is agreeming with me more and more these days. I'm starting to wonder if you two got replaced by dopplegangers when we raided Heathannson's den a few months ago.But seriously, Sebastian, we need to stop seeing eye-to-eye like this. It's kinda creepy.
Pff! 'Course not. It's just a sign of the coming of the apocalypse, that's all. Dopplegangers have nothing to do with it.
Thanks for all the advice, people. I actually went with my first instinct and allowed it as a Reflex Negates spell with straight d6/level damage which was subject to spell resistance. Special thanks to those who gave me that advice. It was how I was leaning anyway. Here are the results of Monday's session:
It was used in three combats and here are the results of the combats, in order:
Encounter 1: (EL 12)Players vs. One Kuo-Toa Whip (Cleric 9) and Two Kuo Toa Defilers (Rogue 1, Ranger 2, Barb 1, Cleric 2) this combat was designed to siphon off a few spells and do a little damage to the party as they enter a tomb to find it already being pillaged by the Kuo-Toa-
Degenerating Portal cast in rd 2 against the Whip, Kills him in three rounds after PC casters lose initiative and take 31 points of flame strike damage in round 1. Miraculously, Whip makes save. He goes down in round 5 after failing his save on subsequent turns. Encounter over in rd. 6, and thoroughly unbroken.
Encounter 2: (EL 11)Huge Custom Undead Creature with SR 19 (forget the name right now) Designed to further thwart the party and allow time for evil mastermind to buff and prepare for their arrival.
Degenerating Portal cast in round 1, failed to overcome SR due to lousy roll. Recast on round three after Corvine the Sorcerer cast True Casting and creature fails reflex save on almost every subsequent round. Takes about 5-6 rounds to take the baddie down, as nobody else wants to come close to said creature, and the whole time I am getting ranged attacks. I felt this was a little cheesy on the party's part, but I am not complaining, as it was also a "mook" encounter and they didn't take the bait and chew up more precious hp. Spell seemed to work fine, combat lasted around 7 rounds. Felt it was a little powerful in context, but at this point he only has one or two more 5th level spells and they still have to fight the Tomb's mastermind.
Encounter 3: (EL 10) Two Shield Guardians. The party again opts for ranged attacks and cowering from the creatures but this time it takes forever due to their fast healing and shield other abilities. A reluctant Corvine is convinced to use one more application of the spell and it finally takes one of them out, after 6 or 7 rounds. A few magic missiles and other ranged attacks finish the other off, with little damage to the party, although the Rogue is repeatedly pummeled to within an inch of his life (and since this player cheats egregiously, I am not sure I didn't kill the Rogue outright at least twice). Again, the spell does not break a CR 10 (one below party level) encounter
All in all, they played right into my hands, because they are now trapped in a tomb with a very prepared and angry mastermind who is going to have to replace some very expensive hardware. If anything the spell is a tiny bit on the powerful side, but not by much, but the other players still got their licks in, and it mostly seemed to fill the bill for the PC's concept...
Thanks again everybody. I will need some help on the Chaotic Corruption spell when I get a chance to post the version handed to me by the player on monday. So far, DP seems just fine with those few minor tweaks. I will work to develop a second set of Portal spells based on individual elements seperately as advised, because I like the concept, but it doesn't really mesh with what the player had intended, clearly.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Chaotic Corruption
School: Necromancy
Level Death 6, Cleric 7
Effect: A monochromatic spray of variegated and mottled dark patterns shoots forth. A creature hit by the rays must roll randomly and determine which effect they are subject to:
1- Withered (-10 Str penalty)
2- Rictus (-10 Dex penalty)
3- Corrupted (-10 Con penalty)
4- Stupified (-10 Int penalty)
5- Addled (-10 Wis penalty)
6- Mortified (-10 Cha penalty)
7- Nauseated and Blinded
8- roll twice ignoring "8"'s
The effects of this spell last for 1 minute per 2 caster levels. All effects allow a Fortitude save to negate.
I felt that the hefty penalties applied were in line with a spell of this level (using bestow curse and bestow greater curse as guidelines). Hope this helps.
Chaotic Corruption
School: Necromancy
Level Death 6, Cleric 7
Effect: A monochromatic spray of variegated and mottled dark patterns shoots forth. A creature hit by the rays must roll randomly and determine which effect they are subject to:
1- Withered (-10 Str penalty)
2- Rictus (-10 Dex penalty)
3- Corrupted (-10 Con penalty)
4- Stupified (-10 Int penalty)
5- Addled (-10 Wis penalty)
6- Mortified (-10 Cha penalty)
7- Nauseated and Blinded
8- roll twice ignoring "8"'sThe effects of this spell last for 1 minute per 2 caster levels. All effects allow a Fortitude save to negate.
I felt that the hefty penalties applied were in line with a spell of this level (using bestow curse and bestow greater curse as guidelines). Hope this helps.
Thanks, Fatespinner. I really like this version and if you were the player in my campaign, I would accept it immediately as written. The power, duration and flexibility of this spell are offset nicely by Fort Negates and the randomness. I would also apply spell resistance, but that seems to be par for the course with necromancy, unless I am mistaken, which I have been known to be. I am going to show this to my player and suggest he take it as you have outlined it.
Thanks Again,-Syl
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Thanks, Fatespinner. I really like this version and if you were the player in my campaign, I would accept it immediately as written. The power, duration and flexibility of this spell are offset nicely by Fort Negates and the randomness. I would also apply spell resistance, but that seems to be par for the course with necromancy, unless I am mistaken, which I have been known to be. I am going to show this to my player and suggest he take it as you have outlined it.
I'm not sure if these kind of descriptors are applicable to Necromancies or not, but you might consider adding the 'Chaos' descriptor onto this spell as well.
For flavor purposes, I would say that the material component for such a spell would be a handful of mixed ashes from at least four different creatures.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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RE: Chaotic Corruption
I forgot to add: I would make the range Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels). You could add a 9th level version called 'Chaotic Corruption Wave'. The effects would be identical except it would be a 60 ft. cone instead. I don't think that's too powerful when compared to similar level spells like wail of the banshee.
Nice touches, Fatespinner. I think the Chaos descriptor would be very apropos for this, and I had figured close range as well. I like the 9th level version, although Save or Die could easily be added to the palate for a Ninth level spell as well.
Thanks Again!
-S
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I like the 9th level version, although Save or Die could easily be added to the palate for a Ninth level spell as well.
That's a valid point. I would replace the 'Nauseated and Blinded' condition with 'Death.'
You would need to add the Death descriptor to such a spell, however.
I like the 9th level version, although Save or Die could easily be added to the palate for a Ninth level spell as well.That's a valid point. I would replace the 'Nauseated and Blinded' condition with 'Death.'
You would need to add the Death descriptor to such a spell, however.
Just wanted to let you know both the original chaotic corruption and the 9th level version are now formally in the repertoire of the player. On his behalf and at his behest, I thank you for your help. He is super psyched about his new spells, and although he didn't get to use them this Monday's combat against the hordes of undead, he is looking forward to splapping some baddies with it two weeks from now, when we resume the MoA campaign. Thanks!
It's not a big deal one way or the other, but I don't feel that the Chaos descriptor should apply. This is a loosely-based, necromantic version of prismatic spray, a very random spell that does not, in fact, have the Chaos descriptor. Again, it's not a big deal, but I wouldn't tack it on. I'd hesitate with the Death descriptor, as well, since it is just one possible outcome, but considering the rest of the context of this spell, in the end I think it's a good call.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I'd hesitate with the Death descriptor, as well, since it is just one possible outcome, but considering the rest of the context of this spell, in the end I think it's a good call.
The fact that it has the descriptor allows spells like death ward to function normally against it. That way there's no confusion if it ever comes up.
Death Ward protects specifically against 'death' effects and negative levels (and a few other things, I believe) but does not protect against implosion because that spell lacks the 'Death' descriptor even though it results in death if the save fails. The idea is that implosion isn't 'snuffing out your life force,' it's ACTUALLY CRUSHING YOU INTO OBLIVION and is thusly not a 'death' effect that would be protected against by death ward.
I was not aware that prismatic spray lacked the Chaos descriptor. In light of this fact, I rescind my advice to add it to chaotic corruption. Again though, as Saern said, it's not a big deal either way.
I was inclined to agree with the chaos descriptor because casting the spell itself seems to me to be such a chaotic act...But since that is only my opinion and the game doesn't really work that way, I think it can be omitted for efficiency, but I would keep the death descriptor ont he 9th level version for the sake of the argument above.
Thanks again for the good advice, folks!