How do you think demogorgon will be presented in the last issue- will it be a powerful aspect, and essentially use stats from Hordes of the Abyss or will Big D be a more powerful version than the HOtA version, but be the real thing (instead of some avatar type aspect)? I personally hope for the real deal, especially given that it looks like they fight an aspect of Demogorgan in issue 145, which I assume will be a more potent version than the one presented in the minatures handbook. As a player if I fight a an aspect of a demon prince at around 13-14th level than I'm going to want to fight the real thing when I hit 20-21st level (not another aspect). I hope the Paizo Demogorgon will be a little beefier than the Hordes of the Abyss Demogorgon (not that he's a slouch in that book, but if he's going to be comparable to Kyuss or Dragotha from AOW he'll need a little beefing up.
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How do you think demogorgon will be presented in the last issue- will it be a powerful aspect, and essentially use stats from Hordes of the Abyss or will Big D be a more powerful version than the HOtA version, but be the real thing (instead of some avatar type aspect)? I personally hope for the real deal, especially given that it looks like they fight an aspect of Demogorgan in issue 145, which I assume will be a more potent version than the one presented in the minatures handbook. As a player if I fight a an aspect of a demon prince at around 13-14th level than I'm going to want to fight the real thing when I hit 20-21st level (not another aspect). I hope the Paizo Demogorgon will be a little beefier than the Hordes of the Abyss Demogorgon (not that he's a slouch in that book, but if he's going to be comparable to Kyuss or Dragotha from AOW he'll need a little beefing up.
The STAP preview said that the party would have a chance to do some things to weaken Demogorgon before hand, and if they were successful face a CR 23 version of him. My best guess is that will be the one from HotA. If the party fails they will face a stronger version. My guess is that it will be the version of him presented in a Demonomicon article that will be the one after Malconthet. In the Demonomicon articles, the strongest Demon lord statted thus far has been Dagon at CR 30. My guess is that Demogorgon will be stronger, probably CR 32 or so. That will likely be the high end CR for Demo in the series.
Time will tell if I'm right or not, but I can't wait to see the fully statted out Prince of Demons.
Creative Director
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The last adventure's not in yet, but I'm pretty sure that there'll be a couple of different stat blocks for Demogorgon, depending on how successful the PCs are in the adventures leading up to the last one. Even if the primary stat block ends up being the FC1 version, though, you can rest assured that he won't be encountered on his lonesome...
A CR 32 version is certainly a strong possibility as well.
That sounds like a good theory Brent. I do have to say that the whole idea of going around doing little quessts to weaken the end boss villains- although it makes perfect sense and makes for a cool adventure could quickly become formulaic if they continue to do that with the AP's- we'ver already seen that in two adventures in AOW.
How do you think demogorgon will be presented in the last issue- will it be a powerful aspect, and essentially use stats from Hordes of the Abyss or will Big D be a more powerful version than the HOtA version, but be the real thing (instead of some avatar type aspect)? I personally hope for the real deal, especially given that it looks like they fight an aspect of Demogorgan in issue 145, which I assume will be a more potent version than the one presented in the minatures handbook. As a player if I fight a an aspect of a demon prince at around 13-14th level than I'm going to want to fight the real thing when I hit 20-21st level (not another aspect). I hope the Paizo Demogorgon will be a little beefier than the Hordes of the Abyss Demogorgon (not that he's a slouch in that book, but if he's going to be comparable to Kyuss or Dragotha from AOW he'll need a little beefing up.
Please refrain to post some spoilers about AoW without mentioning it beforehand. We still didn't finish it here...
Please refrain to post some spoilers about AoW without mentioning it beforehand. We still didn't finish it here...
I agree. I'm one of those people who is running in STAP but only playing in AoW, and it sucks to keep getting spoilers on this board. I know it's easy to forget about if you're familiar with AoW, but it's really nice to find stuff out when you're supposed to in the adventure and not on a message board...
And back on topic, the CR 23 version presented in FC1 is not an aspect, it's the real deal. They just lowered his CR so he would be faceable by 20th level characters. The HOTA Demogorgon is one bad dude... But I positively salivate at the thought of a CR 32 one!
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Creative Director
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And back on topic, the CR 23 version presented in FC1 is not an aspect, it's the real deal. They just lowered his CR so he would be faceable by 20th level characters. The HOTA Demogorgon is one bad dude... But I positively salivate at the thought of a CR 32 one!
Actually... the CR 23 version IS an aspect. At least, it was when I wrote it. You'll note in FC2 they made it clear that the arch devils presented stat blocks for were aspects. In FC1, I wasn't as clear as I should have been in that the demon lord stat blocks are meant to be the baseline stats; that you should advance them as appropriate for your uses, or simply use them as is for aspects or the real deal or whatever.
I'm certain that if a CR 32 version of Demogorgon comes around (which seems likely), there'll be plenty of people arguing that THAT'S too low. In the end, it doesn't matter. All I'm concerned with is making sure that he ends up being a memorable villain in the Savage Tide Adventrue Path, CR 23 or 32 or anything else.
I'm certain that if a CR 32 version of Demogorgon comes around (which seems likely), there'll be plenty of people arguing that THAT'S too low. In the end, it doesn't matter. All I'm concerned with is making sure that he ends up being a memorable villain in the Savage Tide Adventrue Path, CR 23 or 32 or anything else.
Are the stats for Demogorgon still going ahead, and being published in Dungeon #150?
The reason I ask is because Dragon #357 has come out with them in, and not being a regular Dragon buyer I'm wondering if these stats are going to be reprinted in Dungeon, or if it'll be some different stats altogther, or if there are no intended stats for Demogorgon in Dungeon (defeating him without fighting him, perhaps), and so whether it is in fact worth my buying Dragon (just for the stats).
He'll have to be at least CR24 in order to be dumped in the hole to take the sucubus's place. And given Adamarchus's and Kyuss's(suggested) CR I'm guessing 27 is a good base to work from.
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Creative Director
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The reason I ask is because Dragon #357 has come out with them in, and not being a regular Dragon buyer I'm wondering if these stats are going to be reprinted in Dungeon, or if it'll be some different stats altogther, or if there are no intended stats for Demogorgon in Dungeon (defeating him without fighting him, perhaps), and so whether it is in fact worth my buying Dragon (just for the stats).
His stats will be reprinted.
That said... there's more in that issue of Dragon than just his stats; there's another 8000 words about his cult, his layer, his minions, and his history.