The eastern flavour is incidental in the ninja. It can as easily be the class used for thehassassins in an arabian nights setting, thuggee in classical india inspired setting, fate bound assassins, or mystically inclined thieves guilds.And the same can be said for alchemists, bards, and inquisitors.
I understand the point being made here. But when you say you're playing the rogue class, you're playing the rogue class. It's like saying you're playing a paladin, but coming in with an anti-paladin. Similar, but worlds of difference where it counts. So we're here to help the rogue Not the ninja, who arguably doesn't need it.
No.
See their are strong mechanical and thematic differences between a paladin, and an anti-paladin. That makes what your suggesting rather different, because their are a wide range of mystical rogue/assassin archetypal characters can be well represented by the "ninja" just as "paladin" can well represent a wide range of Holy warriors.
Your confusing name, and thematic niche.
No, I'm talking alternate classes.
Which, as the game defines it are archetypes that change the class so radically they become practically different classes (see the ACG playtest) so they get their own statblocks and everything else.
And in fact it wasn't a particularly popular idea. The only reason Ninja's remained an alternate class was because the dev's felt they didn't want classes who had abilities that stacked in such a way that multiclassing was better than going straight into the core. So, by being an alternate class they avoided that.
And really, if a ninja can fit any non-eastern theme so too can the rogue fit any eastern one. But it hardly stops gm's from banning them.
Sorry, but are you seriously suggesting that rogues can't fit into an eastern setting?
Where did I suggest it?
The only thing I suggest here is that thematics can be applied to just about any class to get the flavor you want. Yet, this does not stop gm's for banning classes purely for flavor reasons.
REgardless though this point is veering off topic.
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So this is a character I'm working on. It does have a custom race, but the flying stuff could be dropped easily for other things
This rogue puts fear into the hearts of men, constantly invoking fear every step of the way. Eventually gets to the point he can use dazzling display at a free action in a sense, causing opponents to begin running from him.
Opponents that are scared become victims of the rogue's sneak attack. Major magic is probably better as Enlarge person for more damage, and higher intimidate.
Sneak attacks cause bleed or dispel the enemies buffs. Because enemies are afraid, -2 to attack rolls. He can sicken them for another penalty to attack rolls. He could just simply get larger groups to run from him.
Unnamed Hero #2
Threstal Fighter (Gladiator) 4/Rogue (Thug) 16
N Medium fey
Hero Points 1
Init +3; Senses darkvision 120 ft., low-light vision; Perception +23
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 10 (+3 Dex)
hp 168 (4d10+16d8)
Fort +9, Ref +14, Will +6
Defensive Abilities evasion, uncanny dodge
Weakness light sensitivity
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft., fly 30 ft. (clumsy)
Special Attacks sneak attack +8d6
Spell-Like Abilities
. . 3/day—minor magic
. . 2/day—major magic
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 18, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 16
Base Atk +16; CMB +20; CMD 33
Feats Combat Reflexes, Dazzling Display, Flyby Attack, Gory Finish, Hammer the Gap, Hero's Display, Hover, Intimidating Prowess, Master Combat Performer, Performance Weapon Mastery, Performing Combatant, Savage Display, Shatter Defenses, Weapon Focus (scythe), Weapon Specialization (scythe), Wingover
Skills Acrobatics +26, Appraise +6, Bluff +7, Climb +8, Diplomacy +7, Disable Device +6, Disguise +26, Escape Artist +8, Fly +18, Handle Animal +7, Intimidate +30, Perception +23, Perform (act) +26, Sense Motive +23, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +26, Survival +4, Swim +8, Use Magic Device +26; Racial Modifiers frightening
Languages Common
SQ brutal beating, fame, hero points, piecemeal armor proficiency, rogue talents (bleeding attack +8, combat trick, dispelling attack, hide in plain sight [favored terrain [urban]], major magic [unerring weapon] [2/day], minor magic [message] [3/day], skill mastery [intimidate, stealth], strong impression)
Other Gear 150 GP
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bleeding Attack +8 (Ex) Sneak attacks also deal 8 bleed damage/round.
Brutal Beating (8 rds) (Ex) Forgo 1d6 sneak attack damage to sicken the target for 8 rds.
Combat Reflexes (4 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Darkvision (120 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Dazzling Display (Scythe) Intimidate check to demoralize can affect those within 30' who see you.
Dispelling Attack (Su) Your sneak attacks attempt to dispel the target's active spells.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fame (1 victory points) (Ex) Begins a performance combat with at least 1 victory points.
Flight (30 feet, Clumsy) You can fly!
Flyby Attack You can take a standard action during your move action while flying.
Frightening (Ex) Demoralize duration increases by 1 rd, if 4+ rds can frighten 1 rd instead.
Gory Finish Make an Intimidate check if you reduce an opponent to negative hit points
Hammer the Gap With a full-attack action, each hit against the same opponent deals extra damage
Hero Points (1) Hero Points can be spent at any time to grant a variety of bonuses.
Hero's Display Gain +2 on performance combat checks; may demoralize opponents
Hide in Plain Sight (Favored Terrain [Urban]) (Ex) In your selected terrain, you can use Stealth to hide, even while being observed.
Hover Can hover in place without Fly checks, and kick up dust cloud if within 20 ft of ground.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=20) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 20+.
Light Sensitivity (Ex) Dazzled as long as remain in bright light.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Major Magic (Unerring Weapon) (2/day) (Sp) Gain the chosen 1st-level spell as a spell-like ability.
Master Combat Performer Make a performance combat check as a free action
Minor Magic (Message) (3/day) (Sp) Gain the chosen cantrip as a spell-like ability.
Performance Weapon Mastery All weapons you are proficient with act as if they had the performance quality
Performing Combatant Can make combat performance checks in any combat
Piecemeal Armor Proficiency A gladiator using piecemeal armor is considered to be wearing a suit of armor as long as he wearing two or three armor pieces, gaining the +1 to armor bonus but still taking the +5% chance of arcane spell failure if the pieces are mixed.
Note{/
Savage Display Gain +2 on Performance checks and +1d6 on damage rolls
Skill Mastery (Intimidate, Stealth) You can always take 10 with (3 + int modifier) skills.
Sneak Attack +8d6 +8d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Wingover (1/round) Can turn up to 180 degrees as a free action without a Fly check.
Hero Lab and the Hero Lab logo are Registered Trademarks of LWD Technology, Inc. Free download at http://www.wolflair.com
Pathfinder® and associated marks and logos are trademarks of Paizo Publishing, LLC®, and are used under license.
Except that bards, alchemiss, and eidolons are separate classes (or separate class features), ninjas are rogues. So if I want to make the rogue work, I make a ninja and it works.you miss the point. Ninja's were specifically called out in the OP as not being what this thread is about. I'm not sure why your stubbornly unrelenting on this point, since the OP has told you that a ninja is not what is meant, and it's also included in the original post as not being what were talking about.
However, I could very esily make the character I posted as a pure rogue, just not right now because I'm at work. The more I think about it, the pure rogue might actually be better, not having Vanishing Trick and Invisible Blade notwithstanding.This I'd be interested in seeing as it fits with what the thread is about.
The problem I see when people talk about rogues, is they immediately think MMO rogues. That makes them think of the shifty, stealthy character using a pair of daggers and backstabbing. That's all well and good and I would love to be able to play a rogue like that, but it just doesn't work within the PFRPG ruleset. It doesn't work because te rogue already has problems hitting things and trying to Two-weapon fight makes that even worse. You could use one dagger and be "roguey", but if you're only getting one attack per iterative, why not make it count. That led me to thinking of a rogue (ninja but whatever) that used a two-handed weapon. Then I saw a guide for the shadowdancer that had the shadowdancer using a greatsword and that sold me on the idea.
I love high crit range weapons, so that sold me on the elven curve blade. For my home game, I went the EWP feat route to get proficiency with it, but you can do it even easier by just being a half-elf and taking ancestral arms alternate racial trait. Obviously you're going to want to be a high dex character, since the ECB is finessable, so that right...
You know this makes me wonder if a half-elf rogue might make a good rogue with a dueling sword going into a single dip of swordlord. You'd pick up the exotic weapon proficiency with the half-elf, weapon finesse, and focus are good feats for a dex fighter anyway, and dazzling display is already a requirement for shatter defenses.
You lose 1 level of sneak attack progression, but you pick up:
+1 bab
Dueling master: +1-2 AC
Deft Strike: Add dex to damage
you might not get 1 1/2 damage from dex, but you now qualify for the damage bonus from power attack whenever you use it.
The problems I see with this are though:
- worse saves (except reflex)
- higher crit weapons aren't as useful for rogues
Still that might be a worthwhile build worth looking into anyway.
Where did I suggest it?
The only thing I suggest here is that thematics can be applied to just about any class to get the flavor you want. Yet, this does not stop gm's for banning classes purely for flavor reasons.
REgardless though this point is veering off topic.
The reason I asked, is that it seemed to be the only meaning of your sentence, with deserved any kind of answer other than
"Yes, stupid people do stupid things."
The point is redundant, because stupid people will always do stupid things, and because I had covered why it is a stupid thing to ban the ninja on the ground the baggage the classes name carries.
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Right then. I think we're done here.
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Anyway, onto the point I was going to make before I accidentally lost it to the vagaries of tab management.
The very question your asking, is the reason your having problems. Why?
Because Optimization highlights the fragility of the pathfinder system.
Close to a set of default assumptions of :
- 15 point build.
- 4 PCs filling healer, skill monkey, damage dealer and wizard.
- levels 1-10
- minimal optimization
- Play style that imitates the genre conventions including long adventure days, and widely varying challenges, which have been tailored to challenge rather than force optimal play.
...the smoother the game runs.
The further you get from that, the creakier the game gets.
A rogue played in that paradigm, simply does not have the issues your worried about, because the wizard and cleric have to conserve their spells for things that the rogue can't do. After all, long adventure days favor non-spell users.
However, if you really must find an optimisation answer to the issue, then the place to start it is to identify what the rogue is actually meant to do.
If you take a look at what it is rogue get abilities to do, you'll find that their class features and skill list( not to mention attribute usage), disproportionately favor Mobility challenge resolution and social/investigative play.
The monk is a better maneuverability character in combat, but they such hard non-damage based victory conditions, which require skills.
Mean while the only class that can beat the rogue on skill use is the bard, and it can only beat the rogue for the upper 3rd of the level progression.
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Right then. I think we're done here.But you still haven't told me what it is you're trying to make your rogue do without wanting him to do everything and then saying the class doesn't work.
Try reading the thread.
There's more than a dozen pages of good advice, good builds, and honest work. I thank all the people who honestly gave good advice and worked to give satisfying and practical results.
But, without getting into details, I feel like I'm wasting my time. Feel free to harp some more about why the rogue is fine. Those who really thought that and wanted to prove it put up their builds, gave their advice, and in turn received it from the naysayers, and worked to improve on it. Again, we weren't here to gripe, or parade for the rogue, but to make him better. And in that I think the thread succeeded up to a point.
So in that sense I leave the thread with a good vibe.
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Blegh. This was a pretty nice thread till all that nonsense about the Ninja.
The point of the thread was to see how much we could do with the base Rogue, to see if we could either get a complete niche of our own or at least perform at a level on par with the Rogue's competitors(Bard, Alchemist, Ranger, Inquisitor, Ninja).
The Ninja is useful as a comparison point. Coming in and holding up the Ninja and saying, "Heres a rogue!" is exactly the same thing as coming in and saying the Trapper Ranger is a Rogue.
So thanks for coming in and just telling folks to play a different class. Awesome. Adios. I hope the ACG has some nice goodies for the Rogue.
Blegh. This was a pretty nice thread till all that nonsense about the Ninja.
The point of the thread was to see how much we could do with the base Rogue, to see if we could either get a complete niche of our own or at least perform at a level on par with the Rogue's competitors(Bard, Alchemist, Ranger, Inquisitor, Ninja).
The Ninja is useful as a comparison point. Coming in and holding up the Ninja and saying, "Heres a rogue!" is exactly the same thing as coming in and saying the Trapper Ranger is a Rogue.
So thanks for coming in and just telling folks to play a different class. Awesome. Adios. I hope the ACG has some nice goodies for the Rogue.
agreed. You'd think the OP's posts on this would clear it up since you know.... he knows the intent of the thread he started.
Anyway... looking forward to this thread going back to viable rogue builds, that can be critiqued.
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for rogues, the following factors apply
dual wielding is a trap that leads to a flurry of misses, being able to land one good hit reasonably well matters more than landing a bunch of attacks that have a massive chance of missing.
because a rogue is only likely to hit with their first attack, a spring attack build with the scout archetype, a high strength, and a 2hander is the better route, unless you can get a dex to damage feat that doesn't require a scimitar, and can be used with either a dagger, rapier, or shortsword, where the defenses of the dexterity boost will outweigh the damage of the strength boost in that scenario
a rogue is going to want the following factors for their damage, which will leave them inferior to another martial character, but able to escape enemy reach and capitolize on the fact they are only going to hit with their first attack
the scout archetype
the spring attack feat
a high strength
a race with a strength bonus and proficiency in a good 2hander or few, whether as a default or alternate racial
power attack
maybe a 3 level dip in weapon master
mithril breastplate
a weapon from their list of proficiencies, Falchions for Half-Orcs and Fauchards or Falchions for Half-Elves are a common choice.
Dwarven Rogues sacrifice damage to instead have better health, more defenses and a greataxe or battle axe in both hands
it takes 8-10 levels before this tactic becomes truly reliable, but the idea, is you know you are only going to land one attack, so instead of bothering with iteratives, you use the 8th level scout ability and spring attack together to move, attack, and move back. preferably with reach. enlarge person from an external source can help this build by providing extra reach. a 50 GP potion lasts a minute for a decent price.
you deny yourself a full attack, but you get fairly okay static damage on your one guaranteed sneak attacking swing per round, but you also deny most melee foes a chance to full attack your vulnerable self.
it's not a DPR build and i'm sure another could build it for me.
but the general idea, is it is a highly mobile half-elf with a Fauchard and an Extenze Potion Addiction
DPR sucks, but the general idea is denying the enemy full attacks to take them down a step closer to your level. screwed by pouncers, archers, and vital strike builds that outdamage it.
Anyway... looking forward to this thread going back to viable rogue builds, that can be critiqued.
Agreed.
Sheesh, I go to work and there's a ton of off-topic posts. Maybe, I can post a summary of the tips I got off here, but I'd still like to look at a few things.
1. A comparison of some of the other 3/4 builds. I could certainly build a few myself, but I can't claim they'd be well optimized.
2. In the comparison above, I'd really like to explore that notion that other classes do what the rogue does, but only better. I suspect there is an exchange for that ability that most PCs wont want to do.
3. This may be straying too far from what the OP wanted, but I'm really interested in comparing the success some of the rogue builds would have had against typical AP challenges especially in regards to Stealth, Initiative, Acrobatics, AC, CMB. I suspect the rogues typical chances of success for actually rather high. By that I mean, he can be confident he will succeed in flanking by Acrobatics, or he will get at least two SA's off in the first round by consistently winning surprise and initiative.
I still want to see an INT 20 rogue build. I can't figure that one out, but some folks posted having one without showing the details.
The rogue I posted a while ago was basically an INT rogue. I only used 18 as I wanted to have a 16 Dex. I could adjust it if I have the time. What point buy? I used 20 before.
1. A comparison of some of the other 3/4 builds. I could certainly build a few myself, but I can't claim they'd be well optimized.2. In the comparison above, I'd really like to explore that notion that other classes do what the rogue does, but only better. I suspect there is an exchange for that ability that most PCs wont want to do.
I can throw up a few inquisitor skill monkeys and Bards if you like. What level of optimization are you looking for?
I can throw up a few inquisitor skill monkeys and Bards if you like. What level of optimization are you looking for?
1. A comparison of some of the other 3/4 builds. I could certainly build a few myself, but I can't claim they'd be well optimized.2. In the comparison above, I'd really like to explore that notion that other classes do what the rogue does, but only better. I suspect there is an exchange for that ability that most PCs wont want to do.
I'd say as optimized as you can get. That way no one can say that the game was rigged. Otherwise we get a situation where the rogue overshadows the inquisitor, and everyone cries "But that wasn't a truly optimized inquisitor".
If you want to build a semi-optimized and non-optimized as well for a baseline that could work as well.
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the rogue works as is many different options and abilities its awesome.
An assertion made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence
I can throw up a few inquisitor skill monkeys and Bards if you like. What level of optimization are you looking for?
1. A comparison of some of the other 3/4 builds. I could certainly build a few myself, but I can't claim they'd be well optimized.2. In the comparison above, I'd really like to explore that notion that other classes do what the rogue does, but only better. I suspect there is an exchange for that ability that most PCs wont want to do.
Shall we say 6th? It's a level that gets a lot of play and whatever build we're looking for should start to come into it's own at this level. I'm open though.
Please be patient with me though. I can only post at sporadic times, and sometimes can't get on the Paizo boards for many hours (which seems like a long time on these boards).
I can throw up a few inquisitor skill monkeys and Bards if you like. What level of optimization are you looking for?
1. A comparison of some of the other 3/4 builds. I could certainly build a few myself, but I can't claim they'd be well optimized.2. In the comparison above, I'd really like to explore that notion that other classes do what the rogue does, but only better. I suspect there is an exchange for that ability that most PCs wont want to do.
I'd say as optimized as you can get. That way no one can say that the game was rigged. Otherwise we get a situation where the rogue overshadows the inquisitor, and everyone cries "But that wasn't a truly optimized inquisitor".
If you want to build a semi-optimized and non-optimized as well for a baseline that could work as well.
Sounds good. Should we also agree to just leave magic items out? I don't necessarily want to build a rogue that is dependent on a McGuffin. And it may be easier to compare against build that do the same.
Sounds good. Should we also agree to just leave magic items out? I don't necessarily want to build a rogue that is dependent on a McGuffin. And it may be easier to compare against build that do the same.I can throw up a few inquisitor skill monkeys and Bards if you like. What level of optimization are you looking for?
1. A comparison of some of the other 3/4 builds. I could certainly build a few myself, but I can't claim they'd be well optimized.2. In the comparison above, I'd really like to explore that notion that other classes do what the rogue does, but only better. I suspect there is an exchange for that ability that most PCs wont want to do.
I'd say as optimized as you can get. That way no one can say that the game was rigged. Otherwise we get a situation where the rogue overshadows the inquisitor, and everyone cries "But that wasn't a truly optimized inquisitor".
If you want to build a semi-optimized and non-optimized as well for a baseline that could work as well.
Are you sure? Because a character with no access to magic is heavily underpowered in comparison to one that does.
Sounds good. Should we also agree to just leave magic items out? I don't necessarily want to build a rogue that is dependent on a McGuffin. And it may be easier to compare against build that do the same.I can throw up a few inquisitor skill monkeys and Bards if you like. What level of optimization are you looking for?
1. A comparison of some of the other 3/4 builds. I could certainly build a few myself, but I can't claim they'd be well optimized.2. In the comparison above, I'd really like to explore that notion that other classes do what the rogue does, but only better. I suspect there is an exchange for that ability that most PCs wont want to do.
I'd say as optimized as you can get. That way no one can say that the game was rigged. Otherwise we get a situation where the rogue overshadows the inquisitor, and everyone cries "But that wasn't a truly optimized inquisitor".
If you want to build a semi-optimized and non-optimized as well for a baseline that could work as well.
Agreed
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Back in 3.5 i used to play the heck out of a rogue. But in pathfinder? I really haven't played one again, even though sneak attack is better..
Want a guy to deal with traps?
Rogue Vs Archaeologist Bard.
Ignoring sneak attack at the moment, lets move right into traps.
Trapfinding gives +1/2 bonus to Perception to find traps and +1/2 bonus to disable device. Can disarm magic traps.
Clever Explorerer +1/2 bonus to perception and disable device. At sixth level can disable magical traps too.
So before sixth level Trapfinding itself allows you to deal with something that you're probably going to run into very little of, while Clever explorer gives /pure/ perception bonus. The point is to Clever Explorer right from the get-go here. But wait! There is more!
A Rogue gets five Rogue talents before tenth level. Bard gets 2. Or Does he?
Clever Explorer gives you Fast Picks, and Quick Disable.
So now Rogue has 5 talents compared to the bards 4. And lets face it, you're making a guy to disable traps here in the first place.. Though I guess you could go with shining examples of rogue talents such as...Esoteric Scholar! Oh wait, Bardic knowledge does that Any number of times per day that you wanted!
So Rogue 5 Talents, Bard 5. Well.. how about Getaway artist or Survivalist? Jack of all Trades eventually makes all skills class skills anways. So... yeah. Sorry Rogue. :/
And we've not even gotten into the bonuses on disabling those devices, or even seeing them in the first place. You know Heroisim +2, Luck up to +6 (with a trait) and whatever else you can find.
Well, finally had time to build a rogue that I think is more than serviceable.
Thanks for the build. I'd like your feedback on what your primary tactics might be. I think I maybe missing something. Don't get me wrong, I think this may be serviceable as you wrote. However, as an example, if you are going to focus on Dazzling Display a lot, would it help to maybe swap out two feats for Persuasive and Skill Focus: Intimidate? That would bring your Intimidate check up to +23, giving you a much higher chance of success.
Are you sure? Because a character with no access to magic is heavily underpowered in comparison to one that does.
I understand what you're saying, but if we say compare a particular rogue build against an alchemist or monk, and none of them have magic items, we then have a nice base to build from. It also avoids arguments like a rogue who is only successful because he has Sniper Goggles or whatever. This especially holds true for PCs that are trying to do what the rogue does.
I was kind of running into that with the rogue/archaeologist comparison. Not that it was a big deal, but it would safe effort and magic items can be slapped on later if someone likes a particular build. Maybe add suggested magic items as an addendum?
By the way, just to be clear, I only meant to keep out magic items, not spells.
One more thing, can we agree on a point build? Is 20 good?
One more thing, can we agree on a point build? Is 20 good?
20 is a great baseline being PFS and standard 4d6 average. Heres a level 6 Inquisitor without magic items. His Spells Known is very free to pick, Divine Favor is the only one he absolutely needs.
Traits: Fate's Favored, Armor Expert
Conversion Inquisiton
Str:14
Dex:18(+2 Human and ability point at 4th)
Con:14
Int:12
Wis:14
Cha:7 (Conversion lets us dump pretty freely)
Feats:
1:Point Blank Shot
Human: Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
5: Deadly Aim
Gear:
Masterwork Composite Longbow (+2 Str)
Masterwork Longspear
Agile Breastplate
Various adventuring gear
Skills:
Diplomacy: +11
Kn.All except Engin,Nobility, Geography, History: +7, Know.Local +4
Perception: +11
Sense Motive: +14
Survival: +11
Stealth: +9
DEFENSES
HP: 48
AC: 19
Fort:+7 Ref:+5 Will:+7
OFFENSES:
Bane, Judgment, and Divine Favor boost these epicly.
Melee Attack Bonus: +6
Ranged Attack Bonus: +6/+6 (+4 BAB, +4 Dex, +1 Masterwork, +1 PBS, -2 Rapid Shot, -2 Deadly Aim)
Full Buffed Ranged Bonus: +13/+13 (Judgement +2, Bane +2, Divine Favor +3)
Damage: 1d8+2(Str)+1(PBS)+3(Divine Favor)+2d6+2(Bane)+4(Deadly Aim)
And the important thing to remember is he can do all of this on round 1 or 2 depending on whether he gets a round to buff.
Edit: Thanks Chainsaw
I've got a build that uses Dazzling Display myself.
However, by level 4, it starts using Hero's Display, reducing Dazzling Display down to a swift action instead of a full round. By about level 7 it goes to shatter defenses to sneak attack anyone not immune to being demoralized.
I've got a build that uses Dazzling Display myself.
However, by level 4, it starts using Hero's Display, reducing Dazzling Display down to a swift action instead of a full round. By about level 7 it goes to shatter defenses to sneak attack anyone not immune to being demoralized.
I'd love to see this build
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This is the build here. Mind you it is using a crafted race, but the race hardly adds anything but some flying fun. Replace it with a human or kitsune and you get the same thing about. Better yet, an iffrit.
20 point build, limited to PRD only material other than the race.
The strategy is pretty much for him.. (Switching First level of rogue with second level of fighter)
Level 1 - Just kill the enemy.
Level 2 - Just Kill, or spend one round to Dazzle
Level 3 and 4 - Start doing hero's display every round. Why the heck not? Not like you have anything important to use with a swift action. now you're using Dazzling display pretty much every round.
Level 5 and 6 - Sacrifice 1 die of sneak attack to inflict sickened on the enemy now as well when you can..
Level 7+ - Make them fear you. Make them scream. Cry in terror. Oh and you can make things so much worse too..
You could add in Befuddling Strike into the mix.
-2 to Hit demoralize
-2 to hit sickened
-2 to hit Befuddling...
Total of -6 to hit you. Or a 30% chance to hit.. gone. If you start getting surrounded.. Invoke the ability to make some of the enemies frighted for 1 round. Its a little less desirable. but it can help to mitigate damage.
ACTUALLY Offensive Defense is better. Because it adds more AC to you.
Minor magic can't help too much. but as a rogue, you could use it to pass messages to friends.
Major Magic - Enlarge person. +4 to intimidate, more damage. Greater reach. The dread pirate Roberts has come for your souls.
But the kicker is Dispelling Strike. Cause come on, You know they are going to be enchanted with stuff to kill you. RIP IT FROM THEM.
dont you need master performer or some other feat to use performance combat stuff without a crowd (party members dont count since they're combatants)?
Performing Combatant. You can get it by level 3, by taking two levels of fighter to accelerate you a bit.
After that its a swift action to 'perform'. Granted you're going for a 20 dc.. So you'll need to make sure to try to get as many points into Cha, BAB and Perform as you can.
To these builds posted.
What does your rogue do if there is a monster floating 10ft above them?
What does your rogue do in crowded hallways where rolling past your party front man AND the monster to set up a flank leaves you flanked by another monster?
What does your rogue do with enemies who backed into a corner?
What does you rogue do when flanking an enemy means jumping through the bottle-neck of monsters and taking 6 attacks next turn?
What does your rogue do in any of the above once base weapon damage becomes useless?
This is the build here. Mind you it is using a crafted race, but the race hardly adds anything but some flying fun. Replace it with a human or kitsune and you get the same thing about. Better yet, an iffrit.
20 point build, limited to PRD only material other than the race.
The strategy is pretty much for him.. (Switching First level of rogue with second level of fighter)
Level 1 - Just kill the enemy.
Level 2 - Just Kill, or spend one round to Dazzle
Level 3 and 4 - Start doing hero's display every round. Why the heck not? Not like you have anything important to use with a swift action. now you're using Dazzling display pretty much every round.
Level 5 and 6 - Sacrifice 1 die of sneak attack to inflict sickened on the enemy now as well when you can..
Level 7+ - Make them fear you. Make them scream. Cry in terror. Oh and you can make things so much worse too..You could add in Befuddling Strike into the mix.
-2 to Hit demoralize
-2 to hit sickened
-2 to hit Befuddling...Total of -6 to hit you. Or a 30% chance to hit.. gone. If you start getting surrounded.. Invoke the ability to make some of the enemies frighted for 1 round. Its a little less desirable. but it can help to mitigate damage.
ACTUALLY Offensive Defense is better. Because it adds more AC to you.
Minor magic can't help too much. but as a rogue, you could use it to pass messages to friends.
Major Magic - Enlarge person. +4 to intimidate, more damage. Greater reach. The dread pirate Roberts has come for your souls.
But the kicker is Dispelling Strike. Cause come on, You know they are going to be enchanted with stuff to kill you. RIP IT FROM THEM.
So I'm not familiar with the performance feat line. What exactly is coming online at level 7 (actually a list of the order you take feats in overall would be helpful)? Sorry to ask you to spell it out, but that way I know exactly whats going on.