Hi all. Didn't get any advice on this over at WotC forums so I thought I'd ask over here.
A cleric PC in a game I'm running just used his fire domain powers to rebuke a magma elemental (fire and earth subtypes). He did enough 'damage' to command it. From my reading of the rules he now pretty much has control over the thing until it is turned, commanded, or destroyed by someone else. Is this correct?
They're 4th level (just) and the elemental is 6 hd - so it's pretty powerful to them right now.
If they get to keep it is it reasonable for me to make them take reduced XP as for a party of five (there are four of them) because of the help the elemental is giving? Should I track its XP and advance it? I'm pretty sure nobody else is going to be 'turning' it anytime soon.
My first time dealing with rebuke/command rules and I'm not sure I'm reading everything correctly.
Help! Thanks! :)
A Lost DM
If all your player did was rebuke the elemental, then no. The player does not command it.
The player would have to be able to "destroy" it in order to have command.
In your groups case, the elemental would have to have been 2 HD (or less) for the player to command it.
(Optionally, you could use the adjusted level from the turn check for more variety, in which case the elemental could only be 1/2 the effective level - or 4 HD at max.)
The rebuking would only have lasted 10 rounds. And that only gives attacks against it a +2 to hit.
Now, if you want the group to have command over it, there was a rule I read somewhere that stated a cleric could command a specific creature type up to twice their level in HD, but only through concentration. I forget where I read that. But that would mean once the cleric stopped concentrating, the elemental is free to do as it pleases once again.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Here are the rules from the SRD:
Commanded
A commanded undead creature is under the mental control of the evil cleric. The cleric must take a standard action to give mental orders to a commanded undead. At any one time, the cleric may command any number of undead whose total Hit Dice do not exceed his level. He may voluntarily relinquish command on any commanded undead creature or creatures in order to command new ones.
There's nothing in there about the duration, and the way its written suggests that it is indefinite, so I think you're basically correct. The Animate Dead spell also confirms this interpretation given that it creates undead which stick around indefinitely.
However, one unclear element of the rules is whether the HD limit is based on the cleric's actual level or their weird modified level. I would say that it is the former and that to the extent that a cleric got a good result on the check, that control will end after 10 rounds (just as the effects of turning normally do). But that's off the top of my head and not official.
I would not give them less xp if they controlled an appropriately sized elemental - the elemental should be treated the same as a druid's animal companion or a wizard's familiar. And, the elemental shouldn't earn xp of its own just like the familiar and animal companion do not earn xp of their own.
Hope that helps.
Interesting. Thanks for the feedback.
To Disenchanter: the clerid did do enough damage to command the elemental.
To Sebastian: thanks for that. Yeah, agree on XP after thinking about it for a while. It is a legit use of his powers so shouldn't be any different than summoning creatures to fight for you, etc.
I'm not sure on duration either, because as you said the rules seem to imply indefinite length. But I'm not sure I want the cleric to have an 'animal companion' indefinitely because the class isn't balanced for it (not that the druid is either ;) ). What about:
1) Making it last for a number of days with a check for the elemental to break free each day. Model it on Dominate or something?
or,
2) Have the cleric make a new turning check each morning to retain control over it. He got good rolls on his turning so I don't think he can keep it up for several days running.
Any thoughts on these ideas?
M
To Disenchanter: the clerid did do enough damage to command the elemental.
It doesn't matter the amount of damage done.
Actual turning level is what determines the category. For example, if your turning level is 2, you can only command undead of 1 HD (or less) even if you roll a "damage" of 40,000.
So your 4th level cleric is only capable of commanding individuals of 2 HD or less. Period.
Now, like I said, if you wanted more variety you could use the adjusted cleric level. But that is not the RAW (rules as written).
And, if a cleric commands the proper type of creature, the duration is indefinite. I mean, after all, a destroyed undead doesn't come back after 10 rounds.
Ah, silly me. I see what you're saying. Yeah, I was using the adjusted level.
You are not silly.
But even with adjusted level, your Cleric couldn't command a 6 HD elemental.
The Cleric is 4th level.
The level check caps at +4, making the maximum adjusted level 8th.
That means s/he can rebuke up to 8 HD of elementals, and if you use the adjusted level could command up to a 4 HD elemental.
Luckily, you are dealing with elementals that do not get turn resistance, so the above statement is always true.
Side note on Turning / Commanding undead:
When you are dealing with undead who may, or may not, have Turn resistance it might help to think of the level check as an "attack roll" vs. an "AC" of the undead HD + Turn Resistance. (Turn Resistance is kind of like "armor" for undead.)
Now, when comparing the damage versus HD, Turn Resistance does not get added. (Armor does not normally add to your HPs after all.)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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1) Making it last for a number of days with a check for the elemental to break free each day. Model it on Dominate or something?or,
2) Have the cleric make a new turning check each morning to retain control over it. He got good rolls on his turning so I don't think he can keep it up for several days running.
Any thoughts on these ideas?
M
If it's a creature the cleric can only control if they make the level check, I'd limit the duration to 10 rounds like normal turning.
Otherwise, I like #2. Have the elemental attempt to break control once per day. I'd probably do it when the cleric is otherwise distracted (e.g., in combat).
In regards to the half HD thing, I suppose the argument would be that you use the same mechanic for destruction, but any undead that would have been destroyed are controlled instead. Thus, you have the half HD limit for controlling undead. Makes a certain degree of sense I suppose. So, you're 4th level cleric should be able to control at most a 2HD elemental (though he could control 2 such elementals).
...but there's nothing in the rules for controlling about that have that restriction.
Sure there are. Well, at least in the PHB. I'll have to take a look at the SRD to make sure it is there.
But in the PHB, under the Evil Clerics and Undead heading (pg. 159) it states that a Turning result equals Rebuking, and if the Evil Cleric would have destroyed the undead, then they command it.
Now I am off to double check the SRD. It wouldn't surprise me if that was left out.
EDIT: There it is.
Evil clerics channel negative energy to rebuke (awe) or command (control) undead rather than channeling positive energy to turn or destroy them. An evil cleric makes the equivalent of a turning check. Undead that would be turned are rebuked instead, and those that would be destroyed are commanded.
I see now that I was confusing myself about how turning works. I had this sort of down at one point (it's one of the marked pages in my PHB, along with grapple and cover) but the table talk surrounding this incident got me a little off track. Heh. But, then, I'm easily confused :)
The turn check (d20 + lvl + cha) shows the largest HD creature the cleric can turn. The turn damage check (2d6 + yadda) shows how many total HD the cleric can turn. If the cleric's unmodified level is 2x the hd of a turned creature then that creature is destroyed/commanded instead of turned/rebuked. Is that right?
So, my mistake was that the creature should just have been rebuked, not commanded.
Still not seeing about duration for commanded creatures but I'm going to go read up. Thanks for all of the help.
M
The turn check (d20 + lvl + cha) shows the largest HD creature the cleric can turn. The turn damage check (2d6 + yadda) shows how many total HD the cleric can turn. If the cleric's unmodified level is 2x the hd of a turned creature then that creature is destroyed/commanded instead of turned/rebuked. Is that right?
Thats got it.
And as far as the duration for commanding, it is until destroyed. At lower levels, it might matter. But two 5 HD creatures at 10th level are useless. And it only gets worse as the levels get higher. But your mileage may vary.
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The turn check (d20 + lvl + cha) shows the largest HD creature the cleric can turn. The turn damage check (2d6 + yadda) shows how many total HD the cleric can turn.M
Just wanted to clarify that:
Turn Check is a Charisma Check (1d20 + Charisma Modifier). You don't add the cleric's level to the turn check. However, the cleric's actual level is the constant value to which you apply the positive or negative modifier that is mandated by the Turning Undead Table, depending on the turning result. The resulting level of the cleric after the application of the modifier is the highest HD that that cleric can turn.
Turning damage on the other hand is 2d6 + cleric's actual level + Charisma modifier.
Ah, yep, sorry. Was doing it from memory. :) I suck at clerics because I've never played one until recently - and he has 'destroy undead' replacing turning. Guess I've got to get on the stick with it. ;)
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Oh, nice catch Radavel.
I wasn't watching the rolling part of that statement. Thanks.
Sorry I missed that, mearrin69.
It's cool. Whenever someone tries to turn in a game I'm running I always flip to my bookmark and follow along. Not that it does me any good apparently ;)
M
Still not seeing about duration for commanded creatures but I'm going to go read up.
There is no duration. It lasts until the creature is killed or commanded by another. Given the limit on HD, it's hardly unbalancing. A 10th-level cleric dragging along four 5 HD elementals is hardly more effective in combat than one without, especially given that he needs to spend a standard action to direct his creatures. Any round that he needs to tell them to do something else is a round he's not casting spells, so I'd call it even.