One of the PCs in the game I'm running has a wolf animal companion - with the "scent" special ability. I had to decide whether or not this would help distinguish a real PC from a doppleganger/imposter PC.
The MM says that a doppleganger can be revealed with "true seeing" - which I consider pretty powerful magic, so I decided that the wolf could NOT simply "sniff him out" (dog nose not equal to powerful magic). Is there a definitive rule for this I'm overlooking? Has anyone else had to deal with this? If so, I'd like to hear other people's opinions.
Another issue: the MM says that the doppleganger reverts to true form when killed - but what if knocked out? I couldn't find a definitive rule on this either, so I decided that they keep their imposter form, even if unconscious (i.e., concentration is not required to maintain the disguise, just to create it in the first place). Anyone agree/disagree?
One of the PCs in the game I'm running has a wolf animal companion - with the "scent" special ability. I had to decide whether or not this would help distinguish a real PC from a doppleganger/imposter PC.
The MM says that a doppleganger can be revealed with "true seeing" - which I consider pretty powerful magic, so I decided that the wolf could NOT simply "sniff him out" (dog nose not equal to powerful magic). Is there a definitive rule for this I'm overlooking? Has anyone else had to deal with this? If so, I'd like to hear other people's opinions.
Another issue: the MM says that the doppleganger reverts to true form when killed - but what if knocked out? I couldn't find a definitive rule on this either, so I decided that they keep their imposter form, even if unconscious (i.e., concentration is not required to maintain the disguise, just to create it in the first place). Anyone agree/disagree?
I would agree with the second proposition. It takes a conscious action to change form, so it makes sense that the doppelganger stays in that form until it consciously makes an effort to change or it dies and loses control of the internal mechanisms that keep its form stable.
As for the first, it could go either way. If you rule that the ganger smells different, which seems quite reasonable to me, the wolf might bark at it when it's first introduced into the party, and behave strangely around it. But unless the animal's owner thinks to cast speak with animals and ask the wolf why it's behaving this way, the party may or may not be tipped off. A familiar with scent, on the other hand, can communicate "looks like friend, smells like stranger" empathically. So if you want the doppelganger to remain secret, it might require ruling that it is capable of emulating the scent of the replaced character as well.
Since the rules are unclear, I'd say that the doppelganger also replicates the impersonated character's scent. A happy coincidence is that it makes the module easier to run as written.
--Erik
Thanks for the reply!
I've been playing a long time, but I've never used a doppleganger in a game before. When these little details cropped up in-game, I couldn't believe I hadn't thought about it before. My players are all "rules lawyers" so I have to work extra hard when preparing a session. Basically, I decided that the doppleganger becomes an exact, physical duplicate - down to the cellular level - so it would have the same scent, fingerprints, etc. The only thing different would be it's mind. Since it can read a victim's thoughts, it knows everything the victim does, but still has to be a pretty good actor for close friends to not notice a change in mood or personality.
I'm trying to cement my understanding of doppelgangers for the upcoming HOHR module as well. I have a few questions:
1.)Outfits. The doppelgangers clearly have all sorts of costumes to help them assume the roles of other people. Therefore their change shape ability doesn't also give them the appearance of different clothes. So how does the fight with Telakin (in the Crooked House) play out? He's supposed to appear as a PC, then change into a merchant, then run away as a peasant woman. My PC's are a pretty canny bunch. There's a good chance that they'll ask about clothing and such. How have the rest of you dealt with this (if you have?)
2.)Detect thoughts. This is usable continuously by a doppelganger. I'm looking for ideas about how to make use of this ability when fighting the PCs. Do you ask the players what their characters are thinking about? This seems like it's a powerful ability, but I'm having a hard time translating it into some kind of tactical advantage on the battle mat. Ideas?
Other people may have handled these things differently, but here's what I did--
1.)Outfits. The doppelgangers clearly have all sorts of costumes to help them assume the roles of other people. Therefore their change shape ability doesn't also give them the appearance of different clothes. So how does the fight with Telakin (in the Crooked House) play out? He's supposed to appear as a PC, then change into a merchant, then run away as a peasant woman. My PC's are a pretty canny bunch. There's a good chance that they'll ask about clothing and such. How have the rest of you dealt with this (if you have?)
I puzzled over this one, too. The way I figure it, Doppelgangers' shapechanging ability works similarly to alter self--they can alter their flesh to mimic not only any humanoid form, but also common accoutrements like clothing, harness, and so forth. They can even make it look like they are wearing armor or have a sword hanging on their belt. HOWEVER, this kind of disguise can be spotted under close examination, so it's primarily useful to get past someone on the streets or create an initial deception before combat. If a doppelganger wants to more effectively impersonate someone, he needs to wear appropriate clothing rather than using his flesh to mimic it. (For Elaxan in the Crooked House, I actually simplified the situation by providing him with a potion of invisibility--my log entry on this is about to go up, so you can get an idea how I did it).
2.)Detect thoughts. This is usable continuously by a doppelganger. I'm looking for ideas about how to make use of this ability when fighting the PCs. Do you ask the players what their characters are thinking about? This seems like it's a powerful ability, but I'm having a hard time translating it into some kind of tactical advantage on the battle mat. Ideas?
The primary purpose for this is to ascertain what the target of deception anticipates and feed it to him--thus the +4 bonus the doppelganger gets to bluff and disguise against anyone who fails their will save against the ability. (I'd roll this one in secret to avoid tipping your hand). The ability is only really useful in combat in conjunction with a feint, as far as I can see, but you could conceivably award the Dop a +1 dodge bonus against anyone whose mind is being read, as it allows the creature a split second of additional reaction time against melee attacks. (This is not in the rules anywhere, but seems a reasonable house rule).
I'll try to get my log up to date for the first half of HOHR this week, in case you want to see a bit more about how I handled the doppelgangers, Eltanin.
I'm just starting HOHR and one of my players fients every time he's in combat. I'm not sure how detect thoughts will effect his bluff check. How I read the spell is that the doppleganger would read my PC's mind that he's feinting and thus never be feinted. That seems pretty harsh though. Anyone have any thoughts on how to handle that?
Creative Director
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I'm just starting HOHR and one of my players fients every time he's in combat. I'm not sure how detect thoughts will effect his bluff check. How I read the spell is that the doppleganger would read my PC's mind that he's feinting and thus never be feinted. That seems pretty harsh though. Anyone have any thoughts on how to handle that?
Detect thoughts doesn't allow any benefit into a Bluff check; it only allows surface thoughts. When a character Bluffs, you can assume that his surface thoughts are focused on the Bluff at hand and that what he's really up to is deeper. He'd sill have to make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check, of course.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Detect thoughts doesn't allow any benefit into a Bluff check; it only allows surface thoughts. When a character Bluffs, you can assume that his surface thoughts are focused on the Bluff at hand and that what he's really up to is deeper. He'd sill have to make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check, of course.
I'd go exactly the opposite - I'd say when you are trying to mislead someone, your thoughts are very much on trying to trick them. In general, surface thoughts are what you are currently thinking about, you would think you'd need ranks in Concentration to suppress a thought about what you are actually doing at the moment.
I'd probably handle it as a +5 circumstance modifier to the Sense Motive.
A good read for folks interested in how to mess with folks trying to read your mind is "The Demolished Man", by Alfred Bester. Tenser, said the Tensor...
Russ
A good read for folks interested in how to mess with folks trying to read your mind is "The Demolished Man", by Alfred Bester. Tenser, said the Tensor...
Russ
Oooh! More Alfred Bester. I just purchased a nice shiny copy of "The Stars My Destination" which is an incredibly imaginative and excellent book. I didn't know that he'd written others until I got the new copy which lists his other works. I'll have to check this out.
I'm just starting HOHR and one of my players fients every time he's in combat. I'm not sure how detect thoughts will effect his bluff check. How I read the spell is that the doppleganger would read my PC's mind that he's feinting and thus never be feinted. That seems pretty harsh though. Anyone have any thoughts on how to handle that?Detect thoughts doesn't allow any benefit into a Bluff check; it only allows surface thoughts. When a character Bluffs, you can assume that his surface thoughts are focused on the Bluff at hand and that what he's really up to is deeper. He'd sill have to make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check, of course.
My point was not that doppelgangers can detect other people's bluffs more easily (though it seems to me that that is likely, too, and I'd give the dop a bonus on his sense motive check if he's reading his opponent's mind). My point was that doppelgangers can fake their enemies out more easily (both in matters of disguise and combat feinting) because they have better insight into what their victim is expecting when they are reading the victim's surface thoughts. This interpretation would seem to be supported in the bonus they get to bluff and disguise checks against opponents whose thoughts they are reading. (Cf. the MM entry).
I'm just starting HOHR and one of my players fients every time he's in combat. I'm not sure how detect thoughts will effect his bluff check. How I read the spell is that the doppleganger would read my PC's mind that he's feinting and thus never be feinted. That seems pretty harsh though. Anyone have any thoughts on how to handle that?Detect thoughts doesn't allow any benefit into a Bluff check; it only allows surface thoughts. When a character Bluffs, you can assume that his surface thoughts are focused on the Bluff at hand and that what he's really up to is deeper. He'd sill have to make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check, of course.
This is what makes detect thoughts one of the most difficult spells to judge, "surface thoughts" is very subjective, as are what benifits come from knowing them. This is proably one of those cases that the DM and PC should discuss before begining play. Also, keep in mind it takes three rounds and a failed will save before thoughts can even be read.
Skip if your reading this and related spells might make a good "Rules of the Game" column.
I'm just starting HOHR and one of my players fients every time he's in combat. I'm not sure how detect thoughts will effect his bluff check. How I read the spell is that the doppleganger would read my PC's mind that he's feinting and thus never be feinted. That seems pretty harsh though. Anyone have any thoughts on how to handle that?Detect thoughts doesn't allow any benefit into a Bluff check; it only allows surface thoughts. When a character Bluffs, you can assume that his surface thoughts are focused on the Bluff at hand and that what he's really up to is deeper. He'd sill have to make a Bluff check opposed by a Sense Motive check, of course.
Thanks James! While I do agree with Russ that it seems logical that it should be tougher to Bluff/Fient someone who is reading your mind, I think game-wise it makes sense not to give a bonus. I think doing so might give the ability more power than something of that level should have.
Actually, I solved the problem in my own way. I had the character that Feints all the time be taken over by a doppleganger. When he fights other dopplegangers, they'll know who it is and play along. He'll most likely "drop" the other dopplegangers and move on. Letting them escape and plague the party later seems to make more sense than having the spy help slaughter members of his own spy ring.