Question about half-Dragons

[Joex The Pale]

I recently created a kobold-half Dragon in my game as a nasty little surprise for my PCs. But I am confused my one thing. What is thier new CR? The half-dragon template says to add +2 (or +4, can't remember and book not in front of me) to the base creature's CR. But with the Kobold's CR being 1/6, what is thier final CR? 1? 2? 1/2? 2 1/6? What's the common concensus among you all?

[ericthecleric]

If you check the MM (page 146), it says CR: Same as the base creature +2 (minimum 3).
So, the minimum is CR 3. You can give them one PC class level, add the template, and voila! CR 3.
A sneaky DM trick, though (only for NPCs, not PCs): Add three levels of warrior to your kobold half-dragon 1st-level whatever, and the CR is STILL CR 3! This is because "Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3" (MM 161). ;-)

[Fatespinner]

ericthecleric wrote:

A sneaky DM trick, though (only for NPCs, not PCs): Add three levels of warrior to your kobold half-dragon 1st-level whatever, and the CR is STILL CR 3! This is because "Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3" (MM 161). ;-)

That's just mean, man. ;)

That's like offering the same wages to a machine shop worker and a video game tester. More work, same reward.

[ericthecleric]

Glad you like it, Fate. :-)

At times, I have occasionally been called a killer DM (and other things)... but I do sometimes modify (not use all abilities) if the PCs are getting trashed TOO much.

[Joex The Pale]

Well, that explains why my half-dragon kobold almost killed the party, all by his lonesome. Of course, a 6d6 breath weapon IS a bit much for a 1st level group to deal with...

[Doug Sundseth]

ericthecleric wrote:

If you check the MM (page 146), it says CR: Same as the base creature +2 (minimum 3).

So, the minimum is CR 3. You can give them one PC class level, add the template, and voila! CR 3.
A sneaky DM trick, though (only for NPCs, not PCs): Add three levels of warrior to your kobold half-dragon 1st-level whatever, and the CR is STILL CR 3! This is because "Kobolds with levels in NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3" (MM 161). ;-)

While your quote is accurate, I think I'd read it as if it said "Kobolds with levels onlyin NPC classes have a CR equal to their character level -3".

Otherwise, you can end up with a Kobold Warrior 1/Wizard 3 at CR 1, which seems a bit, hmmm, optimized?

[ericthecleric]

The -3 element only applies to NPC classes (adept, commoner, expert, noble, and warrior). If the kobold only has 1 warrior level, you'd only subtract -1 (not -3), and subtract -2 if it has two npc class levels. Goblins have a similar rule (but -2 for 2 npc class levels).

[Doug Sundseth]

ericthecleric wrote:

The -3 element only applies to NPC classes (adept, commoner, expert, noble, and warrior). If the kobold only has 1 warrior level, you'd only subtract -1 (not -3), and subtract -2 if it has two npc class levels. Goblins have a similar rule (but -2 for 2 npc class levels).

That's a very reasonable way of interpreting things, and on reflection it's probably the way I'd rule mixed PC and NPC classes, but it's not what the rules say (for those who care about that sort of thing). The quoted rule was complete and not out of context.

[ericthecleric]

I agree that you could interpret the rule as: “Otherwise, you can end up with a Kobold Warrior 1/Wizard 3 at CR 1, which seems a bit, hmmm, optimized?”; that would be technically correct as written, but it would be a bit twisted.
I guess that sometimes, using the RAW create anomalies, but this might be because there’s only a limited amount of space for particular definitions or rules. It highlights the usefulness of the Paizo messageboards, so that RAW can be discussed and interpreted for fairness. Thanks for the “That’s a very reasonable way…” comment.

[Saern]

Joex The Pale wrote:

Well, that explains why my half-dragon kobold almost killed the party, all by his lonesome. Of course, a 6d6 breath weapon IS a bit much for a 1st level group to deal with...

Uhm, yeah, that would do it! :)